Rumour TPE to take Scotrail 158s to replace 170/3s

Improvements yes, now only 50 people have to stand as apprised to 100 previously

Okay, so my initlal idea of top-and-tailed loco-hauled services was flawed, but couldn't they hire in a few Loco+MK2s+DBSO sets? I know there's issues with slam doors etc but it would at least add capacity- maybe limit them to the Hull services or something?

Loco hauled is dead, in every market segment distributed traction has either taken over or in the case of HSR, new products are coming to the market to replace earlier generation hauled stock. The days of hauled are nearly over.

Haydn1971 said:

Loco hauled is dead, in every market segment distributed traction has either taken over or in the case of HSR, new products are coming to the market to replace earlier generation hauled stock. The days of hauled are nearly over.

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Depending on how the scotish HST's do there maybe life in them until the mid 2020's, much beyond that and there will likely be no more. By then, if electrification keeps happening, most of the network will be running EMU's anyway.

Haydn1971 said:

Loco hauled is dead, in every market segment distributed traction has either taken over or in the case of HSR, new products are coming to the market to replace earlier generation hauled stock. The days of hauled are nearly over.

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The notable exception to the rule.


I guess if you have too many locomotives, it's the logical thing to do.

Haydn1971 said:

Loco hauled is dead, in every market segment distributed traction has either taken over or in the case of HSR, new products are coming to the market to replace earlier generation hauled stock. The days of hauled are nearly over.

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well, if they need the capacity and no more units can be got, and they can get a good deal on leasing a set and put it on a route where using it might be feasible freeing up some units, its worth looking at at least. i'm well aware its not going to happen, but its better then sitting around and leaving things as they are is it not?

What's better is the DfT getting its finger out and rolling out £50-100m of annual spend on DMU's to strengthen and replace over the next 10-15 years

With some routes round the country where a train is 5 plus cars every service, and there is the room could them services be made loco-hauled (top&tailed) to free up a few units for services where certain times of the day need extra capacity?

What's the fuel consumption like btw for a 6 coach tail top&tailed be diesels compared with say a 6 car 158/159 or a 6 car 185?

Id prefer to see 158's replace the northern pacers at heaton depot.

Many would, but you have to think about the wider picture

DT611 said:

well, if they need the capacity and no more units can be got, and they can get a good deal on leasing a set and put it on a route where using it might be feasible freeing up some units, its worth looking at at least. i'm well aware its not going to happen, but its better then sitting around and leaving things as they are is it not?

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This is exactly what Arriva Trains Wales is doing. From December's timetable change a class 67 and 5 mark 3 vehicles, one being a DVT, will work a diagram all day. The train will run Crewe - Chester - Man Picc - Holyhead - Man Picc - Llandudno - Crewe on mondays to fridays.

It just seems stupid not to use the loco+DBSO combo if the stock's available and the need is there.

I understand that loco haulage is still used fairly widely on the continent, and has the added advantage that if the loco fails, you can just swap it rather than having to short-form the train or cancel it altogether.

As Alex says we are the ones who are backwards in regards to loco hauled as its certainly not dead.

Infact in the Netherlands they had on order the 'V250 High speed' train sets from Breda and they were such a failure they have ordered 20 or more Bombadier Traxx Locos to run on the hi-speed network instead! Belgium also just replaced its entire loco fleet with more locos, Austria, Czech Repulic both running Railjets and the majority of German regional trains are also loco hauled, you can see the German influence right here on Chiltern.



You might want to talk to DB too as they just ordered about 200 of these...

http://die-bahnfotocommunity.startbilder.de/1200/die-db-187-009-am-370460.jpg

Yep loco hauled it almost dead!!!

Anyway carry on. Im sure TPE cannot wait to get their hands on those lovely new 158s they thought they had seen the last of 10 years ago LOL. Then they are going to find someone to look after them seeing as they have no staff familar with said units and I cant imagine Siemens wanting them spoiling their pristine workshops at Ardwick not to mention having no equipment to work on said units...

47802 said:

Well the TPE will just have to manage with what they can have, It was up to me then they wouldn't get anything to replace the 170's, it would be a case of going back to 4 trains an hour on the Huddersfield route, targeting capacity at peak hour's, and stop selling as many cheapo tickets. I would also look at getting rid of 1st class

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Good job they're running it and not you then, eh

Loco hauled is not a viable solution. TPE does not have a safety case for running loco hauled, nor does it have any staff trained to drive them, be guards on them or maintain them. Even if a company like DRS had sufficient resources to fully crew any loco hauled trains ASLEF have already stated they wouldn't allow it, so there would automatically be a dispute. There is also the small issue of cost. By the time the replacement stock is needed next May, TPE will be in Direct Award, so like Northern, don't expect the DfT to be splashing the cash on paying for all this.

Now, it has been proposed that Chiltern take on additional loco hauled diagrams which would allow them to re-deploy stock and hence not require the 170s. Chiltern were reportedly happy at this, provided the DfT paid them the additional leasing costs associated with loco hauled sets. The DfT said they would not.

I have also heard that the DfT has asked TPE to work up a timetable based on the 170s going, and there being no replacement stock. Doing this would mean, I reckon, that the pre-May timetable could just about operate, but many services which run as more than one unit, and are already full and standing throughout, and pretty much all peak hour doubling up, would dissappear, as would any strengthening of Scottish services at weekends where 185s are currently used to operate some services to allow 350s to double up. Essentially it would be complete chaos all the time, with overcrowding and stranded passengers even worse than it is now! There would then also be lots of redundant train crew sitting around with no work - and somebody will need to pay them too.
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If 8 158s from Scotrail were a viable option, then they should be concentrated on the Hull route, which uses the least number of train crew depots to staff the route and would require the least crew training. It also has the least First Class patronage overall.

As to Germany still pursuing loco hauled trains.... ICx will see off the majority of the remaining loco hauled InterCity services and as far as I can tell there has not been a large order for actual passenger coaches in years.

Buying newer locomotives to replace the old junk is not the same thing.
(Also the Railjets were built as OBB had a surplus of locomotives already).

Yes Europe and elsewhere in the world have loco's, but then they to have quieter networks so it doesn't matter if they don't best use of every inch of platform space. This means that they can run shorter sets so the speed difference is less.

Within the UK, once all the HST's and IC225's are withdrawn from regular service then chances are that there will be no bringing them back to regular service.

jcollins said:

TPE introduced an additional Liverpool-York service (York-Newcastle was moved from one service to another) which takes under 2 hours, so that's 4 x 185s freed up by removing it.

So what you're proposing would involve some 4 car 170s being replaced by 3 car 185s and less services on some of the routes which the highest seat occupancy levels in the country. :roll:

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I'm not sure that agree with that assertion I was under the impression that at least 7 185's were freed up by the 350's, also the section between York and Newcastle wasn't a full hourly service in the old timetable there were some gaps particularly at peak periods.

Its a bit of irrelevant argument anyway as clearly they are going to get some units from somewhere although what the consequences of that is remains to be seen, especially when southern also appear to be getting some 170's

Geeves said:

You might want to talk to DB too as they just ordered about 200 of these...

http://die-bahnfotocommunity.startbilder.de/1200/die-db-187-009-am-370460.jpg

Yep loco hauled it almost dead!!!

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they've ordered 220 (with an option for 80 more) EMUs to replace loco hauled IC stock and the "power car+ trailers" ICE1 & ICE2 fleets

47802 said:

I'm not sure that agree with that assertion I was under the impression that at least 7 185's were freed up by the 350's, also the section between York and Newcastle wasn't a full hourly service in the old timetable there were some gaps particularly at peak periods.

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I'm not sure how you can come up with an exact number of units freed up by the introduction of 350s. All the Scottish services used to operate via Bolton and a number of them had Blackpool/Windermere/Barrow portions on them and the diagrams weren't self-contained.

You're right about Newcastle services, there were some gaps in services to provide more capacity between York and Manchester at peak times, so it obviously wouldn't go down well in the North East if anyone official proposed going back to the May 2013 timetable on North TPE.
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Geeves said:

You might want to talk to DB too as they just ordered about 200 of these...



Yep loco hauled it almost dead!!!

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Don't most DB loco-hauled sets only require 1 loco and no DVT due to a cab being built in to the carriage at the opposite end from the loco?

That's why I suggested a loco + DBSO rather than DVT - the stock is there and it would allow better use of platform space.

kwvr45 said:

If 8 158s from Scotrail were a viable option, then they should be concentrated on the Hull route, which uses the least number of train crew depots to staff the route and would require the least crew training. It also has the least First Class patronage overall.

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I thought it had been mentioned on this board that some TPE crews still sign 158s to cover the Scarborough to Hull route on behalf of Northern?

Geeves said:

Anyway carry on. Im sure TPE cannot wait to get their hands on those lovely new 158s they thought they had seen the last of 10 years ago LOL. Then they are going to find someone to look after them seeing as they have no staff familar with said units and I cant imagine Siemens wanting them spoiling their pristine workshops at Ardwick not to mention having no equipment to work on said units...

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I imagine they will have to be allocated to Nev and TPE pay them a fee for work required + maintance + stabling. As happens with XC HSTs at EC.

Class 170101 said:

I thought it had been mentioned on this board that some TPE crews still sign 158s to cover the Scarborough to Hull route on behalf of Northern?

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TPE Scarborough depot are the ones that sign 158s not TPE Hull depot and Scarborough don't sign Hull - Leeds so Hull depot would need to resign 158s in that situation.

Rich McLean said:

I imagine they will have to be allocated to Nev and TPE pay them a fee for work required + maintance + stabling. As happens with XC HSTs at EC.

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Is there any room for more units at Neville Hill? I was under the impression that the depot is basically full at this point and not accepting any new residents until someone else moves out!

kwvr45 said:

I have also heard that the DfT has asked TPE to work up a timetable based on the 170s going, and there being no replacement stock. Doing this would mean, I reckon, that the pre-May timetable could just about operate, but many services which run as more than one unit, and are already full and standing throughout, and pretty much all peak hour doubling up, would dissappear, as would any strengthening of Scottish services at weekends where 185s are currently used to operate some services to allow 350s to double up. Essentially it would be complete chaos all the time, with overcrowding and stranded passengers even worse than it is now! There would then also be lots of redundant train crew sitting around with no work - and somebody will need to pay them too

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As I've reported in other threads, and I'm sure you know as well as I, things are not going well at present. I've made 5 TPE journeys in the last week and a bit, all on trains where I had a reserved seat, only one of which has been honoured. Some trains have been painfully overcrowded and that's just North TPE, I feel bad for anyone travelling on the Scotland route!

starmill said:

As I've reported in other threads, and I'm sure you know as well as I, things are not going well at present. I've made 5 TPE journeys in the last week and a bit, all on trains where I had a reserved seat, only one of which has been honoured. Some trains have been painfully overcrowded and that's just North TPE, I feel bad for anyone travelling on the Scotland route!

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It can only get worse I'm afraid. A lot worse indeed I fear.