Minimum Wage should be a Living Wage

Butts · 6 Nov 2014

Is it not crazy that we have a Minimum Wage that necessitates the propagation of an alternative Living Wage ?

From what I can see apart from Government/Council advocates of the Living Wage a lot of the private concerns that pay it are those to whom the cost is tokenistic, but the kudos immense.

KMPG, STANDARD LIFE and BARCLAYS will have very few employees that would have been paid less than the current Living Wage of £7.85/ £9.15. Probably those in ancillary roles such as cleaning and catering assuming it is not already contracted out. One good aspect of the "Living Wage" club is that to achieve the hallmark sub-contractors have to be paid it as well in order for the firms to qualify.

One of the most obscene culprits is in my view Premiership Football Clubs who have no qualms about paying players thousands of pounds per week but skimp on the salaries of those lower down the order. Perhaps the players could bring to bear some pressure to ensure they pay the Living wage.

I think the Minimum Wage should be a Living wage. If the Government need money to facilitate this via employer subsidies they could raise taxes on Luxury Goods such as Alcohol, Tobacco or APD and Inheritance Tax. They could also clamp down on large firms Taxation arrangements.

Money would be saved through a reduction in Benefit Payments and create a real incentive to work. It would also stimulate the economy as people on lower incomes tend to spend their money rather than save it.

I can't see any real reason why this could not be implemented fairly rapidly -other than the resistance of those who profess to care about the poor as long as money to relieve their suffering is coming out of someone elses wallet :idea:

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Clip · 6 Nov 2014

Butts said:
One of the most obscene culprits is in my view Premiership Football Clubs who have no qualms about paying players thousands of pounds per week but skimp on the salaries of those lower down the order. Perhaps the players could bring to bear some pressure to ensure they pay the Living wage.

:roll:

Why single out the Premiership clubs? Championship as well as the Scottish Irn Bru och aye the noo league all pay their players thousands of pounds per week so why not attack them also?

Its a pretty cheap shot at them too because they are paid by demand - the public wants to see the best they can and therefore they are looking out for themselves by demanding the best pay packet they can - isnt that what we all strive for in life?

Just because we're not all gifted with feet that can do magic things doesnt mean that we should attack those who have just because they get paid more than most people in this life.

Im pretty sure envy is just as bad as greed.

ASharpe · 6 Nov 2014

I'm no economics expert, but if the cost of labour is artificially increased then won't that push up prices and make out economy less efficient?

If it starts costing me more money to buy food, to go out to the pub in an evening or go out for a dinner with my partner, then we might have to cut back. My wage is already at living wage level so it won't be going up to offset the new increased costs.

Any loss of custom from the increased prices would have to be matched by new spenders who are now being paid the living wage.

And don't forget that the government will take a slice of that new money as it passes through the economy through VAT, income tax and NI. So the price increases would need to account for that too.

If the economy was to improve itself and unemployment to fall to a level where there was a shortage of workers then an increase in wages will occur naturally.

Bletchleyite · 6 Nov 2014

asharpe said:
I'm no economics expert, but if the cost of labour is artificially increased then won't that push up prices and make out economy less efficient?

It's worth a look at Switzerland to see what a general high-wage economy looks like - the outcome is that anything involving a human is very expensive.

There are many things to be said for that, though, not least the idea that all jobs are respected.

Neil

Greenback · 6 Nov 2014

Standards of living in what are expensive countries to us, like Switzerland and Norway, seem to be pretty high. Obviously not everyone is living the high life, but they seem to have excellent public services and a Norwegian friend of mine, living in Oslo, has a better lifestyle than people I know living in London and the south east.

It seems to me that there is an argument that high pay = high taxes = high prices = prosperity, but I may be taking a simplistic view.

Bletchleyite · 6 Nov 2014

If we raised the minimum wage to, say, £10/hr, there would be a period of significant inflation, but it would then I think balance out in a situation a bit more like Switzerland. FWIW, I think it might also see some higher quality staff in traditionally low-paid jobs as people move to do what they prefer to do from what's most profitable.

Neil

455driver · 6 Nov 2014

The minimum wage applies to the whole Country but the (London) living wage only applies to London, cuz lundun is speshul innit!

Clip · 6 Nov 2014

Yes, yes it is

AM9 · 6 Nov 2014

Every time a lift in the minimum or living wage is mentioned, 'small business owners' come out of the woodwork complaining that raising it (to a level that workers could survive on) would cause a loss of jobs. That's probably true, but as long as those jobs are being subsidised by welfare payments from public funds or the exploitation of labour at starvation rates, it's hiding the fact that the jobs don't really exist.

Searle · 6 Nov 2014

There is no doubt that a Living Wage is needed, definitely, but we need a way of not screwing over small businesses in the process. Maybe some government tax relief to small business for a year or two, so it's not such a shock?

Of course, all this needs the government to have some money :lol:

Xenophon PCDGS · 6 Nov 2014

I can remember a case from about 20 years ago which would now have been the precursor of a security guard position which was offering a weekly wage of £60.00 per week where the required working hours was 60 each week and the successful applicant had to also supply the dog and to cover its food bill.

The minimum wage when first introduced was to begin to remove such very low pay per hour situations as an immediate priority.

DynamicSpirit · 6 Nov 2014

asharpe said:
I'm no economics expert, but if the cost of labour is artificially increased then won't that push up prices and make out economy less efficient?

Yes, it will very probably increase prices. I'm not sure what you mean by 'make the economy less efficient' though.

The fact that prices will go up doesn't necessarily mean increasing it would be a bad thing. It means that people who are currently on the minimum wage will see their standards of living improve, but not by as much as their wage goes up. Conversely, people who are now earning more than the minimum wage will see their standard of living fall a little. Overall, that will make incomes a bit more equal, which you could argue is a good thing.

My own view is that if you really want to help people on low incomes, the single most effective thing you could do is sort out the housing shortage - by building many more homes. After all, if you work full time on the minimum wage, that comes to around £250/week - which arguably would be enough for most people to live reasonably well on, if it wasn't for the massive cost of housing, which is caused by there not being enough houses. Until the Government sorts out the housing shortage, then the shortage of houses will always force up the cost of housing to the point where people on lower incomes are really struggling - no matter how high you make the minimum wage

Greenback · 6 Nov 2014

I personally find that the cost of energy and water is also an issue, as well as housing costs.

sutty · 6 Nov 2014

Butts said:
It would also stimulate the economy as people on lower incomes tend to spend their money rather than save it.

Coming from somebody on a low income who would be homeless without tax credits, etc - I don't save because my money all gets used so that I can live. That does sound awfully like a vague, generic statement. If you can afford to save money after paying your bills, or you've even got money left by payday - you're on a living wage

Butts · 6 Nov 2014

sutty said:
Coming from somebody on a low income who would be homeless without tax credits, etc - I don't save because my money all gets used so that I can live. That does sound awfully like a vague, generic statement. If you can afford to save money after paying your bills, or you've even got money left by payday - you're on a living wage

So on that basis you are against the introduction of a living wage ?

Perhaps some of the increased wages could not be used to offset the level of benefit thus giving you a higher disposable income.
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Greenback said:
I personally find that the cost of energy and water is also an issue, as well as housing costs.

But in order to pay any bill you need money, with more money in their pockets people are more able to pay bills.
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DynamicSpirit said:
Yes, it will very probably increase prices. I'm not sure what you mean by 'make the economy less efficient' though.

The fact that prices will go up doesn't necessarily mean increasing it would be a bad thing. It means that people who are currently on the minimum wage will see their standards of living improve, but not by as much as their wage goes up. Conversely, people who are now earning more than the minimum wage will see their standard of living fall a little. Overall, that will make incomes a bit more equal, which you could argue is a good thing.

My own view is that if you really want to help people on low incomes, the single most effective thing you could do is sort out the housing shortage - by building many more homes. After all, if you work full time on the minimum wage, that comes to around £250/week - which arguably would be enough for most people to live reasonably well on, if it wasn't for the massive cost of housing, which is caused by there not being enough houses. Until the Government sorts out the housing shortage, then the shortage of houses will always force up the cost of housing to the point where people on lower incomes are really struggling - no matter how high you make the minimum wage

If there is a will there is a way, all that is needed here is the reintroduction of rent controls

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Paul Sidorczuk said:
I can remember a case from about 20 years ago which would now have been the precursor of a security guard position which was offering a weekly wage of £60.00 per week where the required working hours was 60 each week and the successful applicant had to also supply the dog and to cover its food bill.

The minimum wage when first introduced was to begin to remove such very low pay per hour situations as an immediate priority.

Now that has been largely achieved the next logical step is progression to the Living Wage.
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455driver said:
The minimum wage applies to the whole Country but the (London) living wage only applies to London, cuz lundun is speshul innit!

There is a Living Wage outside of London with a current rate of £7.85 as opposed to £9.15 in the smoke.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

AM9 said:
Every time a lift in the minimum or living wage is mentioned, 'small business owners' come out of the woodwork complaining that raising it (to a level that workers could survive on) would cause a loss of jobs. That's probably true, but as long as those jobs are being subsidised by welfare payments from public funds or the exploitation of labour at starvation rates, it's hiding the fact that the jobs don't really exist.

So what is the excuse for large employers ?
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Clip said:
:roll:

Why single out the Premiership clubs? Championship as well as the Scottish Irn Bru och aye the noo league all pay their players thousands of pounds per week so why not attack them also?

Its a pretty cheap shot at them too because they are paid by demand - the public wants to see the best they can and therefore they are looking out for themselves by demanding the best pay packet they can - isnt that what we all strive for in life?

Just because we're not all gifted with feet that can do magic things doesnt mean that we should attack those who have just because they get paid more than most people in this life.

Im pretty sure envy is just as bad as greed.

Because they are keen to point out the good they do for their local communities - what could be better than paying all their employees a living wage.

21C101 · 6 Nov 2014

I would like to see a maximum in law hourly wage of 10x the minimum wage ie £65 an hour ie max £118,000 for a 35 hour week, with no more than £10k of bonus/free or discount shares allowed.

Butts · 6 Nov 2014

21C101 said:
I would like to see a maximum in law hourly wage of 10x the minimum wage ie £65 an hour ie max £118,000 for a 35 hour week, with no more than £10k of bonus/free or discount shares allowed.

Whilst that may be commendable in many ways, the urgency is at the other end.

Do you include footballers in your maximum wage ?

21C101 · 6 Nov 2014

Butts said:
Whilst that may be commendable in many ways, the urgency is at the other end.

Do you include footballers in your maximum wage ?

Absolutely, along with celebrities.

Butts · 6 Nov 2014

21C101 said:
Absolutely, along with celebrities.

Put your "Tin Hat" on as that will create a lot of opprobrium

MidnightFlyer · 6 Nov 2014

So all the world class footballers then depart for Spain, France, Italy, Russia, the USA and Germany where they can earn twice as much with ease, the quality of the league drops, TV and foreign interests decreases and the whole set-up is a lot worse off, especially for any fans who would happily part with four figure sums per season to watch such high-quality talent.

(For the record, I have no qualms whatsoever with any footballers', actors' or other famous figure's wage.)

Butts · 6 Nov 2014

MidnightFlyer said:
So all the world class footballers then depart for Spain, France, Italy, Russia, the USA and Germany where they can earn twice as much with ease, the quality of the league drops, TV and foreign interests decreases and the whole set-up is a lot worse off, especially for any fans who would happily part with four figure sums per season to watch such high-quality talent.

(For the record, I have no qualms whatsoever with any footballers', actors' or other famous figure's wage.)

What about bankers - if they have earned the money ?

MidnightFlyer · 6 Nov 2014

Butts said:
What about bankers - if they have earned the money ?

If they don't make a colossal hash of everything (in the same sense that a lot of £200,000+ a week footballers also do an uniquely equally good job) then not at all, they can have it as far as I'm concerned.

Butts · 6 Nov 2014

MidnightFlyer said:
If they don't make a colossal hash of everything (in the same sense that a lot of £200,000+ a week footballers also do an uniquely equally good job) then not at all, they can have it as far as I'm concerned.

Hallelujah, now let's get back to the lower end of the scale.

Would it be a vote winner to pledge a Living Wage - I'm suprised Labour have not gone further towards this than they have :idea:

Amberley54 · 6 Nov 2014

AM9 said:
Every time a lift in the minimum or living wage is mentioned, 'small business owners' come out of the woodwork complaining that raising it (to a level that workers could survive on) would cause a loss of jobs. That's probably true, but as long as those jobs are being subsidised by welfare payments from public funds or the exploitation of labour at starvation rates, it's hiding the fact that the jobs don't really exist.

Employers have complained about EVERY piece of legislation that helped employees since the 1833 Factory Act outlawed child labou and fixed a maximum working day of 12 hours for under 18s, that they would be forced out of business by cheap foreign competition.

Increasing the minimum wage actually has a nett benefit to UK plc as it reduces eligibility on in-work benefits and brings employees into the income tax system.

Is there any actual evidence that minimum wage rates have ever cost jobs?

As a side issue Roman Abramovic, the owner of Chelski FC and three UK residential properties with a combined value in excess of £22 million paid just £30k in tax last year as a 'non-Dom'. Yet do we ever Hear from small business organisations and their cheer leaders in parliament and the media complaining about how the super-rich get away with paying bugger-all in tax yet they squeal about a couple of quid and hour for families on the breadline!

21C101 · 6 Nov 2014

MidnightFlyer said:
So all the world class footballers then depart for Spain, France, Italy, Russia, the USA and Germany where they can earn twice as much with ease, the quality of the league drops, TV and foreign interests decreases and the whole set-up is a lot worse off, especially for any fans who would happily part with four figure sums per season to watch such high-quality talent.

(For the record, I have no qualms whatsoever with any footballers', actors' or other famous figure's wage.)

ok then, increase the minimum wage.

The proposal was for a maximum wage of 10x the minimum wage not a fixed upper figure.

DarloRich · 6 Nov 2014

Amberley54 said:
Employers have complained about EVERY piece of legislation that helped employees since the 1833 Factory Act outlawed child labou and fixed a maximum working day of 12 hours for under 18s, that they would be forced out of business by cheap foreign competition.

Increasing the minimum wage actually has a nett benefit to UK plc as it reduces eligibility on in-work benefits and brings employees into the income tax system.

Is there any actual evidence that minimum wage rates have ever cost jobs?

exactly!

Butts · 6 Nov 2014

Amberley54 said:
Employers have complained about EVERY piece of legislation that helped employees since the 1833 Factory Act outlawed child labou and fixed a maximum working day of 12 hours for under 18s, that they would be forced out of business by cheap foreign competition.

Increasing the minimum wage actually has a nett benefit to UK plc as it reduces eligibility on in-work benefits and brings employees into the income tax system.

Is there any actual evidence that minimum wage rates have ever cost jobs?

The problem is that there does not seem any political will or urgency to alleviate the situation of the poor with regard to the minimum wage. Although a sizable minority many of them are not voters and to inarticulate or fearful of losing their employment to voice their protestations.

Shamefully very little pressure seems to be exerted by Unions or other workers to improve the lot of the dispossessed. Platitudes are forthcoming but no effective remedies sought. As I mentioned earlier I feel some peoples commitment if it exists at all, does not extend to putting their hand in their own wallet to improve the lot of this group. Gives a whole new meaning to the term charity begins at home.

richw · 6 Nov 2014

I'm fortunate to be in a job paid marginally above the living wage, but not a lot over it. After paying all bills , rent and a modest food shop I have £15 a week available for luxury items or outings etc.
I honestly cant see how I would survive on a minimum wage pay without working stupid hours- our rent is very cheap in Cornwall and we have no non-essential bills or debt.

Butts · 6 Nov 2014

richw said:
I'm fortunate to be in a job paid marginally above the living wage, but not a lot over it. After paying all bills , rent and a modest food shop I have £15 a week available for luxury items or outings etc.
I honestly cant see how I would survive on a minimum wage pay without working stupid hours- our rent is very cheap in Cornwall and we have no non-essential bills or debt.

You've hit the nail on the head there - that is exactly what happens in The Security Industry to a large degree with 60 hour weeks at flat rate the norm.

The Living Wage would give these people a couple of hundred extra per month which could make a real difference to their lives. They could either reduce the number of hours worked or afford some luxuries other people take for granted.

Just as well you don't smoke, £15 buys far more pasties

Amberley54 · 6 Nov 2014

Butts said:
The problem is that there does not seem any political will or urgency to alleviate the situation of the poor with regard to the minimum wage. Although a sizable minority many of them are not voters and to inarticulate or fearful of losing their employment to voice their protestations.

Shamefully very little pressure seems to be exerted by Unions or other workers to improve the lot of the dispossessed. Platitudes are forthcoming but no effective remedies sought. As I mentioned earlier I feel some peoples commitment if it exists at all, does not extend to putting their hand in their own wallet to improve the lot of this group. Gives a whole new meaning to the term charity begins at home.

Fortunately, not all have developed such a cynical view of the world.

Hundreds of employers are currently signed-up to the living wage, with the notable exception being any Conservative-controlled councils - but that is hardly surprising is it? No employers have claimed that they have had to sack employees as a consequence, indeed the Majority are very keen for it be know outside their organisation - charity at home?

I, and thousands of others both in the trade union movement and a wider coalition of organisations have given time, and money, to lobbying for a living wage, often together with efforts to eradicate the associated stigma of fuel poverty ( which the government has 'abolished', just in time for winter) and child poverty which is amongst the highest in Europe ( well, it is at least lower than in Slovakia, Albania, Bulgaria and Belarus).

"Charity begins at home" - it certainly does for far too many - yet those with least often give most to those that have nothing.

Minimum Wage should be a Living Wage

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