The King Across The Water (Labour Leadership)

Butts · 9 Nov 2014

What on earth possessed The Labour Party to elect Ed Milliband as leader ?

He must be the most ineffective holder of that post since Michael Foot. However noble and caring he may actually be, he comes across as a geek in the finest "Wallace" traditions.

Marooned in New York is his brother David, a composite politician, sharp operator and media savvy.

The madness of it all :roll:

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GNER 373 · 9 Nov 2014

I just look at him and think how do I vote for him...he looks and talks like a complete Pratt. I hope Labour come back into power but have a substitution for Party Leader before they do.

Harpers Tate · 9 Nov 2014

Could be worse. Could be Balls.

EM2 · 9 Nov 2014

GNER 373 said:
I just look at him and think how do I vote for him...he looks and talks like a complete Pratt.

So does Cameron. So does Osborne. So does IDS. So does Hague.

GNER 373 · 9 Nov 2014

EM2 said:
So does Cameron. So does Osborne. So does IDS. So does Hague.

Good point, maybe it's part of the selection process for MP's?

Butts · 9 Nov 2014

GNER 373 said:
I just look at him and think how do I vote for him...he looks and talks like a complete Pratt. I hope Labour come back into power but have a substitution for Party Leader before they do.

Perhaps he should get a dog - Michael Foot has Dizzy.....any suggestions

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EM2 said:
So does Cameron. So does Osborne. So does IDS. So does Hague.

Hague may look like a prat (baseball cap

) but he is a great orator

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Harpers Tate said:
Could be worse. Could be Balls.

Could be better - a certain ex Postie :idea:

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Who adulterated my thread title

I wanted it to be a mystery :lol:

Wyvern · 9 Nov 2014

Harpers Tate said:
Could be worse. Could be Balls.

Or Alan Johnson

EM2 · 9 Nov 2014

Harpers Tate said:
Could be worse. Could be Balls.

At least he as a degree in, and some experience of, economics, unlike the current incumbent.

12CSVT · 9 Nov 2014

GNER 373 said:
I just look at him and think how do I vote for him...he looks and talks like a complete Pratt.

Ditto Cameron, Clegg and Farage. None of them worthy of my vote.

43021HST · 9 Nov 2014

GNER 373 said:
I just look at him and think how do I vote for him...he looks and talks like a complete Pratt. I hope Labour come back into power but have a substitution for Party Leader before they do.

I actually rather like Ed, I think he's relatable, he's awkward, geeky and uncomfortable, exactly how I would be if I had the nations press constantly focused on me. He seems more 'human' than the other leaders and for that reason he gets my vote. Cameron and Farage remind me of two preppy school prefects meanwhile Miliband is like the school geek and I know who I prefer. I think we need a geek as PM. Might I just mention his father who was chastised by the Daily Mail purely for being a Marxist Academic is another reason why I would vote for Ed. If his family annoy the Daily Mail then he must be a good man.

For too long we've had arrogant PMs that just seem to screw things up rather than do any good, just because someones bad at PR it doesn't mean they have no substance; in fact it's usually substance over style. Just look at Clement Attlee, he was a very ordinary looking man but was the best PM we've ever had.

Eds brother is also a Blairite, probably why Labour didn't want him.

DarloRich · 9 Nov 2014

Butts said:
What on earth possessed The Labour Party to elect Ed Milliband as leader ?

He must be the most ineffective holder of that post since Michael Foot. However noble and caring he may actually be, he comes across as a geek in the finest "Wallace" traditions.

Marooned in New York is his brother David, a composite politician, sharp operator and media savvy.

The madness of it all :roll:

I think he has good policies, seems a decent bloke, is able to talk on a 1 on 1 level to people, seems human and has some warmth and empathy about him etc but Labour have a 3 -4 point poll lead against a Conservative government who have enacted all kinds of unpopular policies. That isn't good enough

He makes sensible and decent points in PMQ's but seems unable to grasp that the kind of throw away sound bite that Cameron specialises in is what will be reported and remembered so it always looks like he gets a beating and he STILL sounds like a 6th form debating club member!

I just dont know if he looks like a Prime Minister but he must be a threat if the media are out to get him, especially when they are focused on trivia and not substance.

I DO know normal people (and especially those less fortunate than others) cant afford another Tory government, but unless something changes that i what fear we will get.

ainsworth74 · 9 Nov 2014

Butts said:
Who adulterated my thread title

I wanted it to be a mystery

That would be me

Just bringing it into line with our Forum Rules which I'm sure everyone has read!

43021HST · 9 Nov 2014

DarloRich said:
I DO know normal people (and especially those less fortunate than others) cant afford another Tory government, but unless something changes that i what fear we will get.

A genuinely scary possibility is that we have a Tory/UKIP coalition government with Boris Johnson as the PM. Inspires thoughts of emigration, I hear Germany is nice. :lol:

Abpj17 · 9 Nov 2014

*sighs* it would be good if an election wasn't based on what someone looked like or how media-savvy they were....

they aren't imployed to look pretty -_- (although arguably the media-savviness matters a little more if it has cross-overs for international relations...but then look at Dave!) On a one to one level, I've heard that Ed is a thoroughly decent person. (And has a degree in Economics too)

Boris is one of the less scary options - he doesn't have ideals or want to leave a lasting legacy in the way that most career politicans seem to. He takes a more presidential style and the NHS/education might actually get some stability.

DarloRich · 9 Nov 2014

Abpj17 said:
Boris is one of the less scary options - he doesn't have ideals or want to leave a lasting legacy in the way that most career politicans seem to. He takes a more presidential style and the NHS/education might actually get some stability.

¡Ay, caramba! Are you for real? That is exactly what his media image is all about, assuming he is a harmless buffoon with no real policy agenda. He is rabid right wing upper class Tory of the worst kind

And yes, the NHS might get stability - by being removed entirely!
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Butts said:
Who adulterated my thread title

I wanted it to be a mystery

I hadn't realised Jacobitism was still so strong in Scotland - Not sure which pretender we are on to after all this time. Is he still the once and future king?

Oswyntail · 9 Nov 2014

DarloRich said:
¡Ay, caramba! Are you for real? That is exactly what his media image is all about, assuming he is a harmless buffoon with no real policy agenda. He is rabid right wing upper class Tory of the worst kind

And yes, the NHS might get stability - by being removed entirely!
....

I do so love in-depth discussion based on reality. Everything in this post - and, to be fair, the other posts in this thread - show just how much even decent people are led by the nose by what they are told. One has to laugh at the naivety of such phrases as "rabid right wing upper class Tory of the worst kind", which is simply DailyMirrorSpeak for "I disagree with some, nay most, of his decisions". And please do not repeat the myth of the NHS being in danger of being removed entirely - its so-called "privatisation" is not happening, and never will (at least so long as the Conservatives are looking after it, as opposed to Labour bankrupting it).
As I have said before, this ridiculous use of language, rather than discussin actual policies, is opening the way to the more dangerous prospects of UKIP, or coalitions with more extreme parties.

EM2 · 9 Nov 2014

Oswyntail said:
One has to laugh at the naivety of such phrases as "rabid right wing upper class Tory of the worst kind"

But he is! Nothing he has done in London since becoming Mayor has benefited ordinary working people.

21C101 · 9 Nov 2014

klambert said:
A genuinely scary possibility is that we have a Tory/UKIP coalition government with Boris Johnson as the PM. Inspires thoughts of emigration, I hear Germany is nice.

No chance. No way will UKIP go into coalition with the Tories after what has happened to the Liberals. They might do an informal supply and confidence but nothing more.
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DarloRich said:
I hadn't realised Jacobitism was still so strong in Scotland - Not sure which pretender we are on to after all this time. Is he still the once and future king?

All hail our legitimate Catholic real King Francis II

At the death of his grandfather Rupert, August 2, 1955, Francis' father Albert succeeded to all of his father's British rights. Francis was henceforward recognised by the Jacobites as "Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles, and Prince and Great Steward of Scotland". He now used the title "Hereditary Prince of Bavaria".

At the death of his father Albert, July 8, 1996, Francis succeeded to all of his British rights. He was henceforward recognised by the Jacobites as "King Francis II". As Head of the House of Bavaria he uses the title "Duke of Bavaria". He lives in an apartment in Schloss Nymphenburg.

http://www.jacobite.ca/kings/francis2.htm

with such treasonous postings I will get my coat..........

Johnuk123 · 9 Nov 2014

klambert said:
If his family annoy the Daily Mail then he must be a good man.

What a really ideal reason for voting for somebody.

Xenophon PCDGS · 9 Nov 2014

Butts said:
What on earth possessed The Labour Party to elect Ed Milliband as leader ?

This was not altogether unexpected in the party's wish to distance itself from New Labour and Blairism. Ed Milliband has the look of an old-style socialist intellectual who would have been seen lecturing at Ruskin College.

However, if you want the very epitome of total socialism coupled with "sharp dressing" (even though he has mellowed over the years) in a party leader, then I give you Derek Hatton.

Butts · 9 Nov 2014

I think a problem rearing it's ugly head on this thread in "tunnel vision"

hock:

Although nominally a Conservative I can see the good work other parties have done when in Government. It is patently obvious to me that David Milliband would be a better prospect electorally than his brother.

Can we have less "black and white" - everything the Tories or Labour do is aimed at depriving or benefiting one section of the community which is frankly nonsensical.

The solution is a Coalition of Right Wing Labour, Left Wing Conservative and Orange Book Liberal Democrats :idea:

43021HST · 9 Nov 2014

Butts said:
I think a problem rearing it's ugly head on this thread in "tunnel vision"hock:

Although nominally a Conservative I can see the good work other parties have done when in Government. It is patently obvious to me that David Milliband would be a better prospect electorally than his brother.

Can we have less "black and white" - everything the Tories or Labour do is aimed at depriving or benefiting one section of the community which is frankly nonsensical.

The solution is a Coalition of Right Wing Labour, Left Wing Conservative and Orange Book Liberal Democrats

You write about tunnel vision yet your OP was something that read almost exactly like it came from one of the more centre right newspapers. I don't think he's an ineffective leader, all we're hearing about is the media portrayal of Ed. He seems to me to be the first proper leftie, Labour has had for years.

I'm not saying he's perfect, far from it but he's better than the alternatives and I think he'll do this country some real good.

Johnuk123 · 9 Nov 2014

klambert said:
I'm not saying he's perfect, far from it but he's better than the alternatives and I think he'll do this country some real good.

Thankfully he probably won't have the chance.

43021HST · 9 Nov 2014

Johnuk123 said:
Thankfully he probably won't have the chance.

Please can you elaborate on your points rather than writing one liners. I appreciate peoples points of view if they actually explain themselves, like Butts and Oswyntail. Otherwise it's just rude.

21C101 · 9 Nov 2014

I think the current speculation about Eds leadership is just that. There is no way Labour or any other party could afford to dump their leader and start a 90 day leadership election process less than six months from the next general election, even if there was only one candidate.

Lynton Crosby and Gideon would have a field day. For better for worse Ed will be leader of the opposition in the next election (unless his health fails or something).

To have a chance of winning Labour need to be about 10 points clear in the opinion polls at this stage, not level pegging. Incumbent governments nearly always recover ground in the run up to the election as the "hold on to nurse for fear of something worse" factor kicks in.

Also I think that mid term, a good few people use opinion polls to kick the government rather than accurately say who they are voting for. With fixed term parliaments and the next election known to be 6 months away, we are still mid term.

DynamicSpirit · 9 Nov 2014

Butts said:
Can we have less "black and white" - everything the Tories or Labour do is aimed at depriving or benefiting one section of the community which is frankly nonsensical.

From the other side of the spectrum, I rather agree. I'm a Labour member, but I do rather despair at the perpetual tribalism on all sides, in which people seek to depict the other side as practically the root of all evil. In the end, Labour, the Conservatives and Liberal Democrat politicians are, on the whole, all seeking to do what they believe to be best. And realistically, UK Governments of all shades have done many good things and also made many mistakes.

Back to the topic at hand, it's obvious that Ed Milliband is not personally skilled at public relations, and his personality and mannerisms etc. are not well suited to the tv camera. That worries me from the point of view that I want to see him elected, and poor camera skills are not going to help with that. But it's not particularly relevant to how good a prime minister he might be - since that's going to depend on whether he has a good vision of where he wants the country to go, the detailed intellectual understanding of how to get there, the strength to pursue that in spite of all the obstacles that are bound to come up, and the managerial skills to make sure the team he leads acts competently. I don't see any particular reason to doubt his abilities on all those things.

Arglwydd Golau · 9 Nov 2014

klambert said:
Eds brother is also a Blairite, probably why Labour didn't want him.

Spot on, I think! Odd that many people who would never consider voting Labour anyway are clamouring for his removal, for what it's worth, I think that it shouldn't matter what he looks like, whether he eats a bacon sandwich correctly (!) or wears a donkey Jacket (it wasn't)...the tory press scent blood and will make the most of it (how can you vote for a man who looks like that etc etc)

21C101 · 9 Nov 2014

Arglwydd Golau said:
Spot on, I think! Odd that many people who would never consider voting Labour anyway are clamouring for his removal, for what it's worth, I think that it shouldn't matter what he looks like, whether he eats a bacon sandwich correctly (!) or wears a donkey Jacket (it wasn't)...the tory press scent blood and will make the most of it (how can you vote for a man who looks like that etc etc)

Like Iain Duncan Smith, Ed Miliband was elected because of who he wasn't not who he was (in IDS case he was not Kenneth Clarke)

Also both were elected as leader against the wishes of the majority of the parliamentary party.

There are three really good current affairs debate threads here tonight!

Johnuk123 · 9 Nov 2014

klambert said:
Please can you elaborate on your points rather than writing one liners. I appreciate peoples points of view if they actually explain themselves, like Butts and Oswyntail. Otherwise it's just rude.

I must have missed the section in the rules that bans one line answers, and you have the cheek to call me rude.

I think it's pretty clear that with the strong downward momentum labour has especially with an unelectable gaffe prone weirdo suffering from severe memory loss as leader they will really struggle to win out-right next year.

Not that long ago they were kicking at an open door but Milliband has somehow managed to loose the lead they had by simply being strange and totally London-centric.

Cameron will probably be the next prime minister in another coalition with partners of unknown quantity.

21C101 · 9 Nov 2014

Johnuk123 said:
I must have missed the section in the rules that bans one line answers, and you have the cheek to call me rude.

I think it's pretty clear that with the strong downward momentum labour has especially with an unelectable gaffe prone weirdo suffering from severe memory loss as leader they will really struggle to win out-right next year.

Not that long ago they were kicking at an open door but Milliband has somehow managed to loose the lead they had by simply being strange and totally London-centric.

Cameron will probably be the next prime minister in another coalition with partners of unknown quantity.

The way things are going it will take a coalition of five parties to cobble together a majority of three after 2015!

The King Across The Water (Labour Leadership)

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