Virgin / Stagecoach win East Coast

DaiGog · 27 Nov 2014

talltim said:
Agreed, but it does prove that publicly owned doesn't have to equal worse than privately owned. Plus of course profits go back to the public sector to help pay for other things

Absolutely, Tim. Good management (and all that goes with that) is at the root of it, whether the company is owned privately or otherwise. Public ownership does, in theory, mean that the profits are re-invested in the industry rather than diverted away for the good of the German or Dutch rail networks, for example, but at least the ECML has gone to British companies I suppose.

RailUK Forums

PG · 27 Nov 2014

jcollins said:
One thing that seems to be commonplace across all the big bus operators is if they have a route which they are breaking even on or only making a small profit on, they want to get rid of it. Smaller operators seem happier to keep such routes and even take over such routes when bigger operators give up on them.

The big groups have shareholders to pay dividends to - if they can earn a better return upon the capital invested by means other then running a route which is only breaking even or making a small percentage profit then they will ditch that route. Smaller operators often have less capital debt to service and fewer shareholders so are thus able to run on a lower profit margin.

Electrostar · 27 Nov 2014

Lots of Virgin branded worldwide businesses are minority owned by Virgin. The name gives gravitas to those companies while, in theory, ensuring the standard lives up to the reputation. Examples include Virgin Media, Virgin America, Virgin Books and Virgin Australia.

cf111 · 27 Nov 2014

I've no issue outside my personal dislike to Brian Souter with this decision. Virgin's trains are clean, on-time and safe for the most part and their staff are good, the same as the current East Coast organisation. I'm also not overly happy with what is effectively the same company running both of the main rail routes between London and Scotland.

This rush to privatise a successful state-run organisation is however annoying, but that's the system I suppose.

Saint66 · 27 Nov 2014

I'm pleased this bid won it, as I had a lot of experience on WCML last year, and now I rely on the ECML at least four times a month at the moment. Not everyone will be pleased, but let's be honest, there was always going to be some people annoyed, depending on who ever actually won it!

pemma · 27 Nov 2014

Electrostar said:
Lots of Virgin branded worldwide businesses are minority owned by Virgin. The name gives gravitas to those companies while, in theory, ensuring the standard lives up to the reputation. Examples include Virgin Media, Virgin America, Virgin Books and Virgin Australia.

I think Virgin Money are the only bank which have introduced customer lounges, you'd expect an airline to have customer lounges and maybe an Intercity rail operator to have them but it's unusual for banks to have them.

In the case of Virgin Records the brand was sold to EMI, then Branson set up a second record label called V2 which he sold 10 years later.

jon0844 · 27 Nov 2014

Masboroughlad said:
How did the press get it SO wrong?

Buying loads of shares in Eurostar or Keolis, putting out the story, selling them soon after in case the real winner is revealed, sitting back with a smile.

(I'm not serious.. Or am I?)

HSTEd · 27 Nov 2014

So how long will it be before horribly overdone Virgin branding starts appearing everywhere?

bussnapperwm · 27 Nov 2014

At least we'll see Megabus.com tickets on the EC hopefully...

Busaholic · 27 Nov 2014

LNW-GW Joint said:
So the OP was right and the city-watchers (and the Daily Express) wrong.
They kept the lid on till the end.

The new routes will have to go through the ORR for access approval, so not completely guaranteed.
I should think Sunderland will be reached via Newcastle (no mention of Hartlepool).
The next flash-point will be the ORR judgement on the proposed Alliance services on the ECML.

The Daily Express has not got anything right since Lord Beaverbrook opposed appeasing Hitler. :lol:

physics34 · 27 Nov 2014

shame it didnt stay in public hands, but at least its not been won by First Group.

phew.

Spamcan81 · 27 Nov 2014

mtbox said:
Heres hoping its a disaster and a massive failure.

DOR runs very well and it is spiteful blind Tory ideology behind this.

What a strange post. I suppose the ordinary people, passengers and staff, that would be caught up in the disaster and massive failure you wish for, don't matter in your view.

Clip · 27 Nov 2014

Not bad really, just gone 12 and the biggest gripe I can see on this thread is about losing EC rewards.

6Gman · 27 Nov 2014

cf111 said:
This rush to privatise a successful state-run organisation is however annoying, but that's the system I suppose.

It's hardly been rushed. It's 5 years since DOR took over.

markydh · 27 Nov 2014

Also within the "North East to benefit" news item on the Stagecoach Group website is the news that frequency between Newcastle and London will increase to 3 trains an hour (though no date is given for this). IEP starts to be introduced from 2018 so I'm guessing then, with existing stock remaining in service until there are enough IEP sets to run the extra services.

starrymarkb · 27 Nov 2014

Arctic Troll said:
It depends how you perceive the market.

Stagecoach own the East Coast franchise, the West Coast franchise and the East Midlands franchise, meaning finding a competitor train company is a challenge.

So you decide to take the coach. Guess who owns Megabus?

Isn't the main competition Air Travel, where you have a Choice of BA, Easyjet or Flybe (and temporarily Virgin Little Red who are ceasing ops next year)

ainsworth74 · 27 Nov 2014

I also find it odd that people are talking about a 'rush to privatize' and 'Tory ideology'. Have people forgotten that ICEC was supposed to be re-privatized by the end of 2010 under Labour's plans? DOR have had control of ICEC for longer under a Conservative government than a Labour government ever planned! Very odd.

CheekyBandit · 27 Nov 2014

samuelmorris said:
I've mixed opinions on this.

Positive:
- Stagecoach's bus service punctuality has absolutely no bearing on this whatsoever - bus punctuality is largely dependent upon city road traffic flow, which we all know is usually dreadful.
- I'm fairly content with how Stagecoach have operated rail services I used (e.g. EMT to Sheffield, VT to Manchester and various SWT routes. My experience with EMT and VT is limited but has been good on the few occasions I've used it). Lincolnshire rural services notwithstanding they seem to do a pretty admirable job, so I'm not too worried about the East Coast franchise going downhill with them running it.

Negative:
- I am a little concerned how things will pan out long-term if Stagecoach are awarded all three franchises (i.e. if MML and WCML are relet to them).

I am also a bit concerned about Stagecoach having too many fingers in the pie between my home city Sheffield and London. EMT, megabus and their vehicles and drivers doing the National Express route. I myself would be a bit happier with calls at Huntingdon/St Neots (thus avoiding the nightmare of the change at Peterborough). I make three or four journeys to Cambridge each year where I tend to get a Stagecoach bus which goes closer to where in the city where I actually want to go than trains going to somewhere miles away.

Spamcan81 · 27 Nov 2014

12CSVT said:
There are more deserving winners, ie DOR, who have done very well running the East Coast for the past 5 years. The fact that this is being done less than 6 months before a general election was an act of spite by the Tory government.

Some key questions
1) Will the cost of 'Anytime' fares go through the roof like Standard Open fares did when Virgin took over the West Coast route ?
2) If Virgin / Stagecoach aren't awarded an extension when the eight years is up, will Beardy and his cronies go running to the courts, like they did with the West Coast a couple of years ago ?

Why is it an act of spite? On the front line the same people will be doing the same jobs just for a different boss. I've got mates who've worked their whole lives on the ECML from BR through to the current owners.

Gadget88 · 27 Nov 2014

Well it seems my post was deleted? To be more short about it I am disappointed Euro Star never won this bidding process. No doubt I am not the only one who feels this way.

HSTEd · 27 Nov 2014

Spamcan81 said:
Why is it an act of spite? On the front line the same people will be doing the same jobs just for a different boss. I've got mates who've worked their whole lives on the ECML from BR through to the current owners.

They have been in a rush to run as many franchise awards as possible so that as few franchises as possible will expire during the next Government - the objective being to spike any attempt at renationalisation.

swt_passenger · 27 Nov 2014

markydh said:
Also within the "North East to benefit" news item on the Stagecoach Group website is the news that frequency between Newcastle and London will increase to 3 trains an hour (though no date is given for this). IEP starts to be introduced from 2018 so I'm guessing then, with existing stock remaining in service until there are enough IEP sets to run the extra services.

This is just as suggested in the SLC2 in the ITT though, so surely all bidders would have included it anyway? In summary the '3rd Newcastle' service was defined in the relevant table as '44 calls per day' but it was then explained in the detail that 7 of these trains could divert to Middlesborough, which appears to be the option taken up. So not quite the same as a standard 3 tph all day at Newcastle?

Nonetheless, the eventual agreed timetable will be interesting to see when it comes out...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

HSTEd said:
They have been in a rush to run as many franchise awards as possible so that as few franchises as possible will expire during the next Government - the objective being to spike any attempt at renationalisation.

That might be correct for this one franchise, but there are a number of others that have been deferred by direct awards because they haven't time left to run all the competitions required, I think significantly more have been deferred beyond the original planned date than have been rushed.

Tetchytyke · 27 Nov 2014

ainsworth74 said:
I also find it odd that people are talking about a 'rush to privatize' and 'Tory ideology'. Have people forgotten that ICEC was supposed to be re-privatized by the end of 2010 under Labour's plans? DOR have had control of ICEC for longer under a Conservative government than a Labour government ever planned! Very odd.

Labour are, of course, claiming that they wouldn't have privatised, safe in the knowledge that they would never have to prove their words.

"Tory ideology" isn't correct. "Neo-liberal ideology", that Blair loved more than many Tories, is probably more accurate.

6Gman said:
It's hardly been rushed. It's 5 years since DOR took over.

They've rushed to get it through before the General Election, so that a new Government can't overturn the decision. It's been rushed through to spike any new government's desire to nationalise.

It only took so long because DafT proved themselves unfit for purpose in 2012. If they had been any good at their job it would have been done earlier.

Clip said:
Not bad really, just gone 12 and the biggest gripe I can see on this thread is about losing EC rewards.

I'm skeptical that the dividends to the Government are affordable, it smacks of the same desperation that sunk National Express. I'm expecting to be paying through the nose for my regular trips north, together with on-board service reductions, to fund the excess premium payments. But it would be unfair to judge them on fare rises and service standard cuts until they actually implement them.

3141 said:
I'm sure you're right (as always). The huge influence the Scottish National Party has over DfT decisions is well known, to the extent that the DfT would risk a challenge from one of the losers once they knew that the Stagecoach/VT bid had been lower than theirs.

The SNP are going to be the king-makers in a hung Parliament next year, if the analysts are to be believed. Buttering them up early won't do any harm, will it?

There are ways of structuring a procurement process to get the result you want. See Capita and Serco for more details.

That said, I expected First to get it, so maybe I am being too cynical. But nobody ever went bust underestimating the honesty of politicians.

Pugwash · 27 Nov 2014

At-seat food ordering.

Assuming you have a seat of course - I rather like being able to stand in the buffet car.

jon0844 · 27 Nov 2014

If Stagecoach can't afford the payments, I'm sure Virgin will step in by getting the general public to demand a renegotiation. That's why the Virgin brand is so valuable.

Wolfie · 27 Nov 2014

Arctic Troll said:
It depends how you perceive the market.

Stagecoach own the East Coast franchise, the West Coast franchise and the East Midlands franchise, meaning finding a competitor train company is a challenge.

So you decide to take the coach. Guess who owns Megabus?

Thinking positively it probably means Megatrain tickets on the ECML...

pemma · 27 Nov 2014

ainsworth74 said:
I also find it odd that people are talking about a 'rush to privatize' and 'Tory ideology'. Have people forgotten that ICEC was supposed to be re-privatized by the end of 2010 under Labour's plans? DOR have had control of ICEC for longer under a Conservative government than a Labour government ever planned! Very odd.

Although the reason it wasn't privatised sooner was because of the WC fiasco which the Tories blamed on the system they inherited from Labour.

westv · 27 Nov 2014

Wolfie said:
Thinking positively it probably means Megatrain tickets on the ECML...

If it means a 3 hour train journey becomes a 6 hour bus/train trek then I don't think I'll bother with Megatrain tickets.

Spamcan81 · 27 Nov 2014

ainsworth74 said:
I also find it odd that people are talking about a 'rush to privatize' and 'Tory ideology'. Have people forgotten that ICEC was supposed to be re-privatized by the end of 2010 under Labour's plans? DOR have had control of ICEC for longer under a Conservative government than a Labour government ever planned! Very odd.

This is the internet. Surely you don't expect people to actually do research before ranting? You are quite correct though that DOR control of ECML was seen only as a temporary measure by Gordon Brown & Co.

ainsworth74 · 27 Nov 2014

Spamcan81 said:
This is the internet. Surely you don't expect people to actually do research before ranting? You are quite correct though that DOR control of ECML was seen only as a temporary measure by Gordon Brown & Co.

Occasionally I suffer from a bout of idealism. It soon passes once I read a few posts on here though...

:lol:

Virgin / Stagecoach win East Coast

Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Forum Staff

Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Forum Staff