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GCR 'Cromwell Pullman'

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alexl92

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Please could someone explain why the Great Central Railway's Cromwell Pullman is so controversial? I've just seen a mention of it in Steam Railway magazine and apparently the railway's come in for criticism over it, but it doesn't say why.

Cheers!
 
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AndyW33

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The usual criticisms are: its made up of standard Mk1 FOs, an RKB and a BG, with a couple of FKs converted into bar cars, not a genuine Pullman amongst them; and the use of the Cromwell name and logo. But Cromwell Tools paid for the restoration, and it isn't exactly unknown for heritage railways to use non-authentic liveries or non-BR logos on Mark 1s.
The railway does have its crimson and cream dining set of 2 FOs and a RKB as well, and it isn't unknown for vehicles from one of the sets to be added to the other to match demand. Some people don't like that either, though the number of years in which all the passenger carrying Mk1s on the national network were the same colour is a lot less than the "multi coloured" years.
 

Tomnick

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Internally, there's huge amount of disquiet over the extent of the Cromwell sponsorship. Yes, most accept that there'd be no railway without money, but that it rather defeats the object of the heritage of the place continues to be destroyed in the quest to make as much money as possible. It does seem as though the place is turning into one man's personal toy, which isn't doing much good for morale.
 

Monty

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The other sticking point with the Cromwell Pullman is that one of the carriages has been cut apart to make an observation car with some ugly looking veranda. As Tomnick has previously mentioned raising revenue is important but when it's being turned into one mans personal toy and to satisfy his ego it does nothing to improve the railways reputation.
 
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Johnny_w

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Got to throw in this. Personally it never bothered me. It looks good, brings in monies to keep other things going and the railway seems to be going from strength to strength!

I never really understood people getting overly fussy about liveries and stuff.

Although I've yet to partake of this 'pullman' set it looks fantastic.

Just a thought from a paying punter.

JW
 

bunnahabhain

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I believe there may be plans for a McDonalds Pullman at some stage in the future, taking corporate sponsorship to the next level of course.
 

Tomnick

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Got to throw in this. Personally it never bothered me. It looks good, brings in monies to keep other things going and the railway seems to be going from strength to strength!

I never really understood people getting overly fussy about liveries and stuff.

Although I've yet to partake of this 'pullman' set it looks fantastic.

Just a thought from a paying punter.

JW
Liveries and whatnot don't really bother me either, but this does feel like the thin end of the wedge. Commercially, this and other proposals are potentially very good things (if managed effectively!), but what's the point if we destroy the heritage of the place in the process? I see that they (and I mean 'they', not 'we', sadly) have resubmitted their bid for funding for the museum at Leicester - a hideous structure that's completely at odds with the aim of "recreating the experience". For me, it's as much about the infrastructure - track, signalling, buildings - as it is about locos and stock, but it does seem increasingly that there's little interest in anything that's not a steam loco. Do we really want to end up with a soulless theme park?
 

E&W Lucas

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The usual criticisms are: its made up of standard Mk1 FOs, an RKB and a BG, with a couple of FKs converted into bar cars, not a genuine Pullman amongst them; and the use of the Cromwell name and logo. But Cromwell Tools paid for the restoration, and it isn't exactly unknown for heritage railways to use non-authentic liveries or non-BR logos on Mark 1s.
The railway does have its crimson and cream dining set of 2 FOs and a RKB as well, and it isn't unknown for vehicles from one of the sets to be added to the other to match demand. Some people don't like that either, though the number of years in which all the passenger carrying Mk1s on the national network were the same colour is a lot less than the "multi coloured" years.

Ahhhh
Who reads Steam Beno?
Anoraks who stand at the lineside with cameras.
Who get hot under the collar about anything that doesn't look right in their photographs?

If it pleases those who are buying the tickets, it's good. Don't worry about the trainspotters.
 

edwin_m

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If they want a coach with a veranda, surely much better to take the gas axe to a non-rare Mk1 than to a genuine Pullman?
 

Tomnick

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Ahhhh
Who reads Steam Beno?
Anoraks who stand at the lineside with cameras.
Who get hot under the collar about anything that doesn't look right in their photographs?

If it pleases those who are buying the tickets, it's good. Don't worry about the trainspotters.
As above, is it (the wider issue) good if it leaves us with a theme park? I don't worry about the trainspotters, but I do worry about the hardworking volunteers (without whom we wouldn't have a railway at all!) who are watching more and more of the heritage of the railway be destroyed in an apparent quest to squeeze as much money out of the operation as possible, at any cost. I, for one, certainly don't want us to end up running nice shiny steam locos along a railway bereft of any significant heritage infrastructure - recreating the experience is surely about the whole package, not just locos with silly nameplates.
 

matt

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If they want a coach with a veranda, surely much better to take the gas axe to a non-rare Mk1 than to a genuine Pullman?

It was a mark 1 they used. They are just painted in a Pullman livery
 

alexl92

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It was a mark 1 they used. They are just painted in a Pullman livery

I think the point that the op as making was that if a verandah car was being created, we should be glad it was from a MK1 rather than an original pullman.
 

edwin_m

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I think the point that the op as making was that if a verandah car was being created, we should be glad it was from a MK1 rather than an original pullman.

Yes indeed. I was going by a previous poster saying there were no genuine Pullmans in the train.
 

Jonfun

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I'm strongly supportive of the fact heritage railways need to retain a heritage feel - but equally, it's important to remember that the railway might be 1930s, but its visitors aren't. A premium product like a dining service needs to be premium, in ease of booking, quality of coaches, quality of food, customer service etc. Likewise on a day to day basis, railways need to remember that they are there for the visitors, who each and every day are more and more picky about where they spend their money. Bad customer service, inavailability of online booking or card payment facilities, all are things which is going to drive business away - and especially so in this day and age, if you don't evolve, you die.
 

tjlrailblue

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I can understand that they needed a dining train for corporate hire or fine dining and that this maybe had to involve refitting these coaches in a non authentic fashion...

I do think they should paint them in an authentic livery though. Rolling stock is just as important as the loco to me.

They have some fantastic rolling stock on the great central which is brilliantly preserved so it's not like
this is hugely upsetting or anything so keep it in perspective. maybe at next repaint they can externally at least go into something authentic.


Tim
 
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bunnahabhain

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Why would they? They are sponsored by Cromwell Tools extremely altruistic (ha!) owner. We don't have the David Clark Box Company Double Track, so why should we have the Cromwell Tools "Pullman".

It's just another terrible management decision by a deluded old power mad fool who really should realise when he should leave for all the good he has done before he ruins the place. Despite claiming to be a volunteer it doesn't stop multiple family member of his claiming a wage from the place.
 

satisnek

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Sounds to me like the problem is: blurring the distinction between 'preserved railway' and 'heritage railway'. The GCR, like the Severn Valley, is a bona fide 'preserved railway' with all bar one of the stations completely original. Something like the East Lancs, for example, is on the other hand a 'heritage railway' with only one original station (and that was a 1950s BR rebuild).

As for the livery, well yes, but how many late build Mk1s (particularly RMBs) do you see in early 1950s maroon and cream.... ?
 

Tracky

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I wonder if anybody has thought of kitting out a MkI kitchen car as a McDonalds resturant. I can see that being quite popular for a tourist line.

As for the veranda, does anybody take issue with the Royal Scotsman one, or any other metro camel Pullman butchery jobs they did in creating what is a stunning land cruise train.

Heritage railways must take a more commercial business like aproach these days to survive. One of the best examples I've seen lately is the Vale of Rheidol - just take a look at trip advisor to see the customer feedback. It's nearly all good.
 

Tomnick

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Heritage railways must take a more commercial business like aproach these days to survive. One of the best examples I've seen lately is the Vale of Rheidol - just take a look at trip advisor to see the customer feedback. It's nearly all good.
I don't disagree, but I don't understand why that should necessarily threaten the heritage aspect of the operation. Yes, there'll always be compromises in order to provide facilities to the quality that visitors rightly expect, but these should always be sympathetic to the heritage. The ultimate aim, surely, is to preserve the heritage for future generations to experience, enjoy and be educated by - so if we destroy that heritage in the process, we have entirely failed to achieve that aim. Incidentally, despite the increasingly commercialised feel of the railway, the quality of the experience is worse than ever, in my opinion - the coaching stock is embarrassingly shabby and the new catering outlets are overpriced with poor quality food and terribly inefficient service, just to pick two aspects that are important to a typical visitor.

Sounds to me like the problem is: blurring the distinction between 'preserved railway' and 'heritage railway'. The GCR, like the Severn Valley, is a bona fide 'preserved railway' with all bar one of the stations completely original. Something like the East Lancs, for example, is on the other hand a 'heritage railway' with only one original station (and that was a 1950s BR rebuild).
There's a further distinction between 'heritage railway' and 'theme park' though. It's perfectly possible to create a very effective 'heritage' feel even when starting from scratch - even though we were very lucky to start with three largely complete stations on the GCR, a huge amount of hard work and research has gone into restoring them to a condition appropriate to the era being portrayed (different for each station). The same attention to detail can be seen in other aspects of the infrastructure - the signalling probably being the best example (although the installation at Swithland isn't 'authentic' for the location, it's a careful recreation of that found further south on the same line), but also the smaller details such as bridge plates, mileposts and so on. It's such a shame to see this carefully crafted atmosphere put under threat by historically insensitive developments such as the new catering outlets, the turntable at Quorn (totally out of place, and of little use) and - at the design stage - the proposed museum at Leicester which is entirely at odds with the stated aim of 'recreating the experience'. The SVR is a particularly relevant example - their senior management were, as I understand it, effectively forced by an enormous outcry to form a heritage committee to ensure that any development would complement the existing heritage rather than damage it, in response to a particularly unsympathetically modern proposal, not entirely dissimilar to that proposed at Leicester North.
 
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455driver

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Why cant they be a Heritage railway with a posh dining train?
Why is it always one or the other!
 

Tracky

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I do agree with you there. The GCR seem to be obsessed by food and the bistro at Quorn has provided me with awful service every time I've been there. I tend just to use the cafes on the platforms at the three stations. On a previous gala I enjoyed a breakfast in the Gresley buffet car only to find a rivet. Three were found to be missing from the cooker hood!

The turntable, in my opinion would have been better at the end of the line at Leicester North. I have not seen the new proposal for Leicester.

As for the SVR, it was only after the necessary but unsympathetic facilities went in at Highley that the railway got its act together. There had been some disapproval at the kidderminster additions too, I understand.

The Festiniog developments at harbour station sadden me, but talking to my father he had similar feelings about the expansion in the 60s, so maybe it will bed in.
 

Tomnick

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Why cant they be a Heritage railway with a posh dining train?
Why is it always one or the other!
It doesn't have to be one or the other, and indeed most railway (including the GCR!) manage it just nicely. Most complaints (in that respect) seem to be against the insensitive sponsorship that's evident all over the train, one of the locos and elsewhere on the railway. Even that, though, is just a sympton of the current culture there, rather than the main cause - it's all about money, money, money...and not at all about the heritage which is very much under threat.
I do agree with you there. The GCR seem to be obsessed by food and the bistro at Quorn has provided me with awful service every time I've been there. I tend just to use the cafes on the platforms at the three stations. On a previous gala I enjoyed a breakfast in the Gresley buffet car only to find a rivet. Three were found to be missing from the cooker hood!
The refreshment rooms on the platforms (except at Loughborough) are run by volunteers at their respective stations, and are a much more tempting prospect for hot drinks and snacks. The homemade cake at Rothley is particularly excellent! Ellis', the other outlet at Rothley, was pretty good too in its early days, until it was brought under the umbrella of the railway's catering services.
The turntable, in my opinion would have been better at the end of the line at Leicester North. I have not seen the new proposal for Leicester.
Agreed - although, even at Leicester, it'd have little operational use without another one at the opposite end of the line, it'd be rather more appropriate there, and quite an attraction in the museum. It's totally out of place at Quorn though, otherwise portrayed as a typical country station with a basic goods yard - and it takes up a substantial part of the railway's largest exhibition space, parking area and bonfire site!
As for the SVR, it was only after the necessary but unsympathetic facilities went in at Highley that the railway got its act together. There had been some disapproval at the kidderminster additions too, I understand.

The Festiniog developments at harbour station sadden me, but talking to my father he had similar feelings about the expansion in the 60s, so maybe it will bed in.
I don't really know about the Ffestiniog's developments, but it all seems reasonably 'heritage', although the changes have been quite radical! It'll be interesting to see what happens with the Leicester development, as the situation does seem very similar to that on the SVR previously - we're still getting used to the monstrosity of a carriage shed that's completely destroyed the atmosphere being so carefully created by the S&T at Swithland, and there's other little details such as ugly palisade fencing recently installed at Beeches Road (one of the railway's most photogenic locations).

There's a small taster, in the form of an artist's impression, of the proposed development on the GCR's Facebook page. There's also an alternative proposal that's been put forward - very well researched - by one of my colleagues, hidden in a reply to one of the comments. I'll try to post both here when I get chance.
 

Flipper

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Apropos of the Cromwell “Pullman” rake, there is no altruism at work, this is a business arrangement. Cromwell Tools did indeed pay for the restoration, but only in as much as they loaned the railway the money to carry out the work. It must be paid back at, IIRC, £2k per month. £190k remains outstanding on the loan as of the most recently published set of accounts, although this will be around £170k now.

Given that for at least 90% of the time there is no visible use for two dining rakes, it prima facie seems a less than fantastic arrangement for the railway. The rake must bring in at least £2k profit from new business (over and above what the existing First Class dining rake would have attracted) each and every month, just to cover the loan repayments, and it is not hard to foresee a situation where some or all of the rake has to be withdrawn for overhaul before the loan is repaid (2022). Benefits are perhaps rather more obvious for the loan provider, they enjoy the publicity afforded by having their company name plastered down the side of the coaches.

Finally, in my personal opinion, the verandah car is just unutterably vile.

Flip
 
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ainsworth74

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Why on earth would anyone enter into an agreement like that if they already had one dining rake? Or do they expect their to be sufficient demand to warrant two?

Does anyone have any pictures of this veranda car?
 

Flipper

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The worrying thing is the statement at that link that the GCR has received it's "first verandah coach [...]" Are there more on the way ?! <Shudder>

Also, I note that the background image on that page is relevant to this discussion.

Cynically, it seems that every time there is a publicity opportunity on the line it is these coaches, and as often as not the locomotive also bearing the Cromwell company name, that is put in front of the cameras. Consequently the image of the railway most frequently projected recently is a deceit, one which opens the line up to ridicule from many enthusiasts and perhaps does not sit well with the earnest desire of the majority of stakeholders to educate and inform the public.

[Edited to add] I note that the locomotive in the shot referred to is actually 70013 Oliver Cromwell, not the poor old 9F which has been forced to masquerade (poorly) as it !
 
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satisnek

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Yes, looking around it's plain to see that commercialism has indeed infested all our preserved railways. The concept of restoring a railway to a 'working museum' sadly now belongs to a past era, or so it seems.

I suppose that the SVR's nearest equivalent to the GCR's Cromwell set is the DMU, fitted out with a bar and a generator to power it (and was there a bit of corporate sponsorship involved here?). Apart from being returned to its original green livery this can hardly be called a restoration!

But there's an overall, pervading mindset which afflicts the whole atmosphere of the line. For the last two or three Christmases (and just turned on this year) Kidderminster Town station frontage has been decked out with unashamedly 21st century blue/white flashing LEDs, rather than the more appropriate coloured bulbs (which indeed it used to have). And the concourse doesn't really bear thinking about... I can certainly see the point about 'heritage railway' and 'theme park'!
 
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