headshot119
Established Member
I am now wondering having read the letter several times, it seems odd that the chef would only be on the north bound service, and not the southbound, he'd have to travel on the cushions at some point.
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ATW to Rebrand Gerald Premier Service
- Thread starter merlodlliw
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I am now wondering having read the letter several times, it seems odd that the chef would only be on the north bound service, and not the southbound, he'd have to travel on the cushions at some point.
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merlodlliw
Established Member
third time lucky lost the two replies I made.
I am also wondering will the Chef travel from Cardiff on Sunday as now to hotel in Rhyl overnight, then work back to Cardiff making breakfast rolls, the girls are capable of making.
Or just travel North getting off at Chester and travel back home on a 175, this would mean little difference to what happens on serving now, or just work Cardiff to to Shrewsbury? thus saving five hotel bills.
Whatever happens "Gerald The Business" must now show it can increase business, I anticipate changes again in May, but looks like the service will last to the end of the current toc.
And thanks to the Moderator for Changing the thread title to" Rebrand" in place of axe
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berneyarms
Established Member
Nice to see a positive view on this news from North Wales Railway News:
http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1412a.htm
http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1412a.htm
merlodlliw
Established Member
I always find Charlie Hume the editor always gives an unbiased view from both sides of the argument, has a good editor should, has a contributor to North Wales rail website, I gained permission for the publication of the Ministers Letter to AMs to be put on the website, before I sent it to Charlie.
I'm unsure what they mean by 'more extensive and flexible menu range'. I'm slightly confused about the whole thing concerning the menu, especially the breakfast. Will it be more or less worthwhile to upgrade for the breakfast service now?
jones_bangor
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Quote from the Daily Post: "But in an apparent U-turn Transport Minister Edwina Hart has announced the chefs are to be retained and the first class carriage rebranded as business class.
Great news for Welsh railways.
Great news for Welsh railways.
trainophile
Established Member
It's all very well rebranding the carriage, but I'm still not clear how they intend to rebrand the tickets.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Still massively irrelevant to Cambrian users, then again Cardiff is a niche market as 12 years of business travel to it has proved.
There will probably just be new fares added called 'ATW Business Upgrade' or similar and they will be issued instead of the current First Class upgrade. If someone has a First Class open ticket that will be valid there. The question is will they sell Advances? You can currently get great prices on Advance First for it.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It beggars belief that any company accounts department is stupid enough to fall for it. But they are, or Eurostar wouldn't have the "Standard Premier" nonsense, nor Chiltern their "business zone".
I like the easy upgrades, as it would be easy enough to pay the upgrade yourself. But not calling First Class First Class has one aim, and one aim only. And if anyone working for me tried to pull the wool over my eyes with it, they would be kicked very hard indeed.
Neil
I like the easy upgrades, as it would be easy enough to pay the upgrade yourself. But not calling First Class First Class has one aim, and one aim only. And if anyone working for me tried to pull the wool over my eyes with it, they would be kicked very hard indeed.
Neil
DelayRepay
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My company make me book tickets through their travel agent's portal, where First Class tickets are blocked. Yet sometimes when I go to Manchester, a First Class ticket is actually cheaper than a Standard ticket. Not to mention that when I go to Manchester due to the time I leave home I am allowed to claim for breakfast and coffee - so by making me go by Standard the company is not only paying more for the ticket, they are incurring additional expenses and also have to pay for me to use the Wifi if I they want me to do any work.
I do think the people who write and enforce these policies live on a different planet
This is the same company who asked me to justify spending £1 extra to get a flexible ticket compared to two advances, despite the fact that if everything had run to plan I would have had a 3 hour wait before I could get the train home. :roll:
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
You need to compare like with like. It is very unusual for there to be a First Advance with no cheaper Standard Advance on the same train. Not totally unknown, but rare. Those who say "First Class is cheaper" usually claim this based on a walk up Standard fare, which is sly and again I would be having none of.
Neil
Neil
DelayRepay
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It is unusual for a First Advance to be cheaper than a Standard Advance, but not unknown. The point is that even when this is the case, and I can evidence this by taking screen shots from the website, I am not allowed to save money by booking the cheaper ticket.
I strongly suspect the system would allow me to book Business Class although I think this would be against the rules - I will test this theory at some point.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
My policy, to be fair, would be that you must use the cheapest ticket on the relevant trains with the required degree of flexibility.
Neil
Neil
SprinterMan
Established Member
This seems like excellent news, well done to WAG and ATW for finding a solution that makes the best of things for everyone 
Adam
Adam
Phil from Mon
Member
We have to book through the office except in exceptional circumstances, so this doesn't apply. I don't see why any reasonably sized organisation doesn't insist on this, avoids any problems with people trying to pull a fast one.
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merlodlliw
Established Member
You will not be able to book First class and use this train without an upgrade surly its not a franchise service,has no first class will be available on the Line from Chester to Newport,what would be the point? So ends ATWs venture into First Class travel, hopefully a new era for all.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Seems little point, I presume a business upgrade would be the same price morning or evening, the official price should be out soon, Im guessing at least £50 upgrade with the official built in meal.
Has for advances, in my opinion this was the revenue loser & downfall previous, so business will fill the carriage or it will revert to all standard.
I hope the few business people who go to Cardiff from the North use the service as previous it appeared the majority were from the statutory sector whose fare was paid for by Welsh Government, I think the Minister realises this. Publicity the service even exists within the business community in the North would assist, good marketing is required, however there will not be the same demand has there is to London on VT.
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berneyarms
Established Member
Not completely sure about your statement on 1st Class.
I imagine 1st Class All Line Rovers and 1st Class BritRail passes will remain valid in the Business Class.
That certainly applies to Chiltern's Business Zone.
As I pointed out, fully flexible 1st class tickets from Holyhead to Cardiff, allowing the use of First on VT and possibly valid via Birmingham so XC also, are still available. These should continue to be valid, they're expensive enough.
I think the current upgrade is also railcard discountable, I wonder if that's going to continue.
I think the current upgrade is also railcard discountable, I wonder if that's going to continue.
merlodlliw
Established Member
Well has "Gerald The Business" will not have any first class seating from 15th December,like all other services if you travel first then get a feeder that is only second IE off the 1810 Euston , its First . into Wrexham then travel to Chirk in standard..
I dont see why people who get a very discounted First, should not pay the business upgrade to get the meal on Gerald. Time will tell.
Remember this is an open access service, Chilterns is franchise.different rules apply to open access.
My guess is depending on price, few will book First, ATW must be well aware of tickets that loose income.
Any sign of the spare dining car being sent to the painters yet, to get rid of First Class signage ?
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
To me the most sensible option would be to charge those who want a meal for a meal, and to keep the actual upgrade down.
FWIW if ATW don't accept First Class tickets for travel in the Business Zone they won't, presumably, get any ORCATS first class money...that is I expect why no Open Access operator so far has opted out of Any Permitted ticketing...
Neil
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berneyarms
Established Member
Well again I have to disagree with you.
Britrail passes are valid on all operators including open access ones, so I would expect that to continue, with First Class passes valid on all including Business Zones.
All Line Rovers are valid on Grand Central and Hull Trains, so again I'd expect the same to apply here.
merlodlliw
Established Member
To me the most sensible option would be to charge those who want a meal for a meal, and to keep the actual upgrade down.
FWIW if ATW don't accept First Class tickets for travel in the Business Zone they won't, presumably, get any ORCATS first class money...that is I expect why no Open Access operator so far has opted out of Any Permitted ticketing...
Neil
But can you book First class to Cardiff from Wrexham? and what route from Dec15th. There will be no First Class on the line Chester via Wrexham to Newport, how will ATW recoup the meal charge from a first class ticket in business class, the orcats wont provide this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Only time will tell, its very fuzzy as yet,
Phil from Mon
Member
Not so. By statutory sector I assume you mean Welsh govt employees, their agencies like NRW, and county council people. Of the rest, the universities in Bangor and Wrexham are charities, many people in the NGO and Other parts of the charity sector use it, and also a great many in different industries attending the various stakeholder group meetings when they are held in Cardiff. There Re also the many NHS (not paid by government, at least directly), and trade union people. Pretty sure most of those will be in standard!
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Arglwydd Golau
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As far as I know - and I would like to be corrected - there has not been a survey of those who use the train in First or Standard, so I am assuming that your information was/is anecdotal. At risk of repeating myself from years ago, the original publicity for the train was non-existent amongst all potentially interested parties in North Wales, as others have suggested it would be rather pleasant to have some now! Better late than never, I suppose!
Of course. Why not? £86.10 single, valid on any train on a permitted route in any part of the passenger accommodation of said train. A suggested itinerary might be as below.
I would expect the majority of the ORCATS from this ticket would still go to ATW.
Attachments
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Has anyone actually scopped out demand from these sectors? Ie how many people how many times a year ?
merlodlliw
Established Member
You are correct, here is the reply from a Senior Manager at ATW in response to my e mail about pricing of upgrade
this looks excellent value, I guess its £25 from to/Wrexham, the meal must be worth all of that and sit with the political big guns for entertainment
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berneyarms
Established Member
Great value indeed!!
Yes, I would have been absolutely astonished if first class tickets were not valid.
It will be interesting to see the revised menus and in particular what exactly is on offer in the mornings.
The evening meals probably won't change that much - the chefs put a lot of work into designing menus that used locally sourced produce from Wales.
Hopefully ATW will actively market the catering element more actively, and that people will start to use it in greater numbers.
Yes, I would have been absolutely astonished if first class tickets were not valid.
It will be interesting to see the revised menus and in particular what exactly is on offer in the mornings.
The evening meals probably won't change that much - the chefs put a lot of work into designing menus that used locally sourced produce from Wales.
Hopefully ATW will actively market the catering element more actively, and that people will start to use it in greater numbers.
Phil from Mon
Member
Not that I am aware of Gareth. As I said, I use it about half a dozen times a year, I know about ten friends who are down every couple of weeks at least, and I have a work colleague who at the moment is there twice a week, and will be for the foreseeable future. Obviously can't speak for other organisations.
Welsh Govt these days are doing a lot more to involve stakeholders in their decision making, which usually means meetings in Cardiff, and of course the Welsh HQs and /or head offices (sometimes the only office) of an increasing number of organisations and quangos are down there.
I can't think it would be too hard to quantify if someone had the means to survey it over a one-month period.
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