Virgin / Stagecoach win East Coast

LNW-GW Joint · 10 Dec 2014

6Z09 said:
Is there any mention of Kings X to Glasgow trains, East Coast currently only appear to have one direct in each direction daily, down from one every couple of hours in GNER days.

They ditched most of the Glasgow extensions to enable more services further south.
XC took over the Edinburgh-Carstairs-Glasgow runs with shorter trains.
I can't see more King's Cross services returning, not before IEPs anyway.

RailUK Forums

Chrism20 · 10 Dec 2014

Geezertronic said:
Virgin Trains East Coast will be only Virgin branding, not Virgin run since Stagecoach are the 90% stakeholder. Virgin won't probably allow the brand to be affected but it's very much like Virgin Media which is also branding only

I know it's not Virgin calling the shots but you can be guaranteed when it comes to image (ie how it looks) Sir Dickie will be calling the shots and a slap-over with a vinyl has never been the way Virgin operate. It's his brand name whether it's 10% or 110%

Clip · 10 Dec 2014

It may not be his way but vinyl wraps will be infinitely cheaper than doing a full paint job and then having IEP come on board.

BUT in the grand scheme of things it shouldn't really be an issue as they will say Virgin and that's all that counts.

JaJaWa · 10 Dec 2014

Chrism20 said:
Please forgive me for being a bit dumb but what is open plan ticketing?

I believe they mean the format that TfL are moving to, where the ticket machines are being upgraded to have all the features available from a ticket office, far more ticket machines are put in, and staff are moved out of the ticket offices.

DarloRich · 10 Dec 2014

I have just had an awful thought:

Virgin/Stagecoach might stop selling Yorkshire tea. We must be told! #SAVEOURTEA

If EC cant be saved for the public we must retain the right to drink decent tea at a reasonable price.

Chrism20 · 10 Dec 2014

JaJaWa said:
I believe they mean the format that TfL are moving to, where the ticket machines are being upgraded to have all the features available from a ticket office, far more ticket machines are put in, and staff are moved out of the ticket offices.

Thanks, it was the first time I had seen it mentioned.

Ticket offices are becoming a bit like bank branches these days - used much less than they used to as everything gradually moves online.

Wolfie · 11 Dec 2014

Old Yard Dog said:
I was recently dumped off a Birmingham - Birkenhead NE coach as Stafford railway station as the driver had run out of hours due to traffic jams on the M6. We had to make our own way home by train.

It isn't often you get a "bus replacement train"!

Indeed! I assume National Express picked up the tab for the train tickets....

Hazlehead · 11 Dec 2014

WatcherZero said:
Been some more on the competition today. Virgin/Stagecoach won with a £3.3bn premium, the next highest bid was a premium of £2.4bn. Stagecoach bid was £900m more and relies on increasing capacity by 50% and doubling annual revenue from £700m to £1.4bn through heavy initial investment and accepting a lower profit in the early years in return for a larger annual profit at the tail end of the franchise to give an industry average return over the length of the contract, annual operating profit is expected to be around £20m initially and rise to around £100m in the final years.

Now forgive me for being cynical but wasn't that the idea First group had for the West Coast that Virgin so publicly poo pooed?? Oh and the reduce Anytime fares to London was also part of First Group pledge for West Coast. Funny how Stagecoach/Virgin came up with those ideas :-P

Starmill · 11 Dec 2014

JaJaWa said:
I believe they mean the format that TfL are moving to, where the ticket machines are being upgraded to have all the features available from a ticket office, far more ticket machines are put in, and staff are moved out of the ticket offices.

Very doubtful they will lose the ticket office - I'd like to see TVMs issuing Excesses, Rangers, Staff and other uncommon discounts, Advances and other complex products. Would be nice if I'd be proved wrong though...

sprinterguy · 11 Dec 2014

Chrism20 said:
Tbh it wouldn't surprise me if it was pulled leaving XC to that one although I'm guessing that there may be something in the contract that a service had to be kept hence the one daily outing. If they did pull it would more than likely become the new ex Stirling service (on an HST of course)

There is a requirement for the East Coast franchise to retain one return train per day, Monday to Friday, between Glasgow and Kings Cross for the duration of the new franchise.

Chrism20 · 11 Dec 2014

sprinterguy said:
There is a requirement for the East Coast franchise to retain one return train per day, Monday to Friday, between Glasgow and Kings Cross for the duration of the new franchise.

I thought that was the case, thanks

Deerfold · 11 Dec 2014

Terrier said:
Now forgive me for being cynical but wasn't that the idea First group had for the West Coast that Virgin so publicly poo pooed?? Oh and the reduce Anytime fares to London was also part of First Group pledge for West Coast. Funny how Stagecoach/Virgin came up with those ideas :-P

It's not clear - that involved the payments getting higher through the Period (as with NX). This publicity doesn't mention how the payments are staggered, just how the profit profile will look.

thetangoman · 11 Dec 2014

sprinterguy said:
There is a requirement for the East Coast franchise to retain one return train per day, Monday to Friday, between Glasgow and Kings Cross for the duration of the new franchise.

When the EGIP is complete could this utilise Glasgow Queen Street making the journey significantly shorter

LNW-GW Joint · 11 Dec 2014

thetangoman said:
When the EGIP is complete could this utilise Glasgow Queen Street making the journey significantly shorter

Queen St, even when extended, won't be able to hold more than 8 cars.
So a 5-car IEP would fit, but nothing longer.

Class 170101 · 11 Dec 2014

sprinterguy said:
There is a requirement for the East Coast franchise to retain one return train per day, Monday to Friday, between Glasgow and Kings Cross for the duration of the new franchise.

The route knowledge retention also proves useful as it is part of the route taken by trains when services are diverted via Carlisle.

WatcherZero · 12 Dec 2014

Talk seems to be HST's will be released one in one out as the IEP arrives, Mk4's will be retained at least until IEP is fully delivered and might be retained beyond for other services but not decided yet, mind you by then wont be long left in the franchise also continued Mk4 usage may require a new locomotive order.

YorkshireRider · 12 Dec 2014

Deerfold said:
It's not clear - that involved the payments getting higher through the Period (as with NX). This publicity doesn't mention how the payments are staggered, just how the profit profile will look.

The payments don't seem that unrealistic once the new services start, Stadgecoach are nobody's mugs, it seems they have only promised 2.3 bn, with the extra billion dependant on revenue earned

Roose · 13 Dec 2014

Electrostar said:
Lots of Virgin branded worldwide businesses are minority owned by Virgin. The name gives gravitas to those companies while, in theory, ensuring the standard lives up to the reputation. Examples include Virgin Media, Virgin America, Virgin Books and Virgin Australia.

Virgin?

Gravitas?

Hahahahahahahah.....

jon0844 · 13 Dec 2014

It's true. Virgin is a very trusted and respected brand.

No whether it deserves to be is open to debate (for the most part, I'd say yes) but that's a different discussion.

Seeing Virgin on the side of the ECML trains is bound to be seen as a good thing by almost everyone.

Suraggu · 13 Dec 2014

WatcherZero said:
Talk seems to be HST's will be released one in one out as the IEP arrives, Mk4's will be retained at least until IEP is fully delivered and might be retained beyond for other services but not decided yet, mind you by then wont be long left in the franchise also continued Mk4 usage may require a new locomotive order.

No firm plans... Yet. Unfortunately we won't know for a few months as that's between Intercity Railways & the leasing company's.

It also depends if VTEC are receiving 9 car Bi mode IEP first as the Inverness/Aberdeen services will be 9 Car sets due to passenger levels.

samuelmorris · 13 Dec 2014

Is that right? The Mk4s are surely the majority of the fleet, to have all the new IEP units delivered and all of the Mk4s still lying around would leave a massive rolling stock surplus, where are they going to put it all?

swt_passenger · 13 Dec 2014

YorkshireRider said:
The payments don't seem that unrealistic once the new services start, Stadgecoach are nobody's mugs, it seems they have only promised 2.3 bn, with the extra billion dependant on revenue earned

The difference in the published figures is simply because DfT included an expected compound increase on present values over the 8 years, but Stagecoach didn't.

As WatcherZero pointed out earlier in the thread, (in post #268), the figures are equivalent to one another, when 3.5% inflation is compounded over the full franchise period:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1987194&postcount=268

infobleep · 13 Dec 2014

samuelmorris said:
Is that right? The Mk4s are surely the majority of the fleet, to have all the new IEP units delivered and all of the Mk4s still lying around would leave a massive rolling stock surplus, where are they going to put it all?

Could some of the coaches be used elsewhere or are they simply not compatible on other lines. I mean lines using 142s.

samuelmorris · 13 Dec 2014

What would haul them though? Are Mk4s compatible with anything other than 91s?

Muzer · 13 Dec 2014

@samuelmorris I expect so, else how do they manage drags?

I think this is a good thing overall. I mean, Stagecoach are competent and Virgin are a respected brand in the eyes of the public.

ainsworth74 · 13 Dec 2014

samuelmorris said:
What would haul them though? Are Mk4s compatible with anything other than 91s?

The TSOE (the carriage that couples to the 91) is compatible with, I believe, basically any locomotive currently in service. In terms of supplying power as long as it can supply the standard electric train supply (which is basically everything other than the 43s of HSTs and 66s) then the Mk4s will be happy with it. In terms of controlling from the DVT the locomotive would have to be compatible with standard TDM (this is a lot less common).

The Mk4s within a rake, as far as I'm aware, are only compatible with each other without modifying either the Mk4 or whatever it is you want to attach.

fandroid · 13 Dec 2014

jonmorris0844 said:
It's true. Virgin is a very trusted and respected brand.

No whether it deserves to be is open to debate (for the most part, I'd say yes) but that's a different discussion.

Seeing Virgin on the side of the ECML trains is bound to be seen as a good thing by almost everyone.

I would rather say that Virgin is a 'successful' brand. Which Stagecoach obviously think is worth paying for.

They'll need a 'virgin boost' in order to overcome the rather large financial hurdle of having to pay seriously increased lease charges for the IEPs.

I suspect the brand thing will be handled very carefully. There will be modest Virgin badges slapped on the Mk4s, and then the IEPs will be introduced in full Pendolino livery with a big fanfair including RB himself claiming responsibility for the 'fabulous new trains' with his fingers firmly crossed behind his back in case someone loudly points out that he had been forced to use them by DfT! Credit will be claimed for just about everything (including work that NR completed before the franchise was let) and the Sec of State will say what a fabulous deal the taxpayer has got (again).

Sorry, I feel that Virgin did a great job in forcing Railtrack into a deal on the WCML upgrade, but after that they have not achieved much more than you would expect from all that investment. The ECML is a much tougher proposition.

Robertj21a · 13 Dec 2014

fandroid said:
...edit...

The ECML is a much tougher proposition.

So it's just as well that it's Stagecoach in control.

33Hz · 14 Dec 2014

infobleep said:
Could some of the coaches be used elsewhere or are they simply not compatible on other lines. I mean lines using 142s.

Norwich in 90?

GrimsbyPacer · 14 Dec 2014

infobleep said:
Could some of the coaches be used elsewhere or are they simply not compatible on other lines. I mean lines using 142s.

I think it will be too heavy for a 142 to cope without additional power. That said, Parry People Movers have a plan to connect a small railbus on each end to a mark 4. It looks a bit silly with steps needed between the carriage and engine but its like your idea.

http://www.parrypeoplemovers.com/better_services.htm

This webpage has a drawing of the design.

On another note, would Stagecoach having the East Coast mainline effect Midland mainline routes where they overlap?
I wouldn't be surprised if the Leeds and Lincoln services are scrapped. As they would be competing with themselves.

Virgin / Stagecoach win East Coast

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