Night trains in bygone eras

satisnek said:

Wasn't there a Waterloo-Yeovil Junction newspaper train which departed sometime around 0300?

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There were several newspaper trains out of Waterloo & Victoria that also conveyed passengers. There were mostly worked by Class 73, or in earlier days, by Class 71 or 74. Too late today to go hunting for old timetables, but, from memory, I think there was one from Victoria to at least Faversham, and one from Waterloo to at least Eastleigh. I never did them myself, but a few hardy "haulage bashers" used them to score the locos.
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The Chatham line papers originally ran from Holborn at 0300, moving to Victoria when Holborn closed I think.
London Bridge had 0320 Brighton, 0327 Eastbourne, and on the SE an 0335 Margate via Dover (not sure that lasted till the end). When London Bridge was resignalled in the 70's, a release crossover was retained or provided on one pair of the Brighton platforms, I assume for these.
Waterloo pre 1967 despatched the 1.10 to the West Country, a 2.30 Bournemouth and Portsmouth via Eastleigh (ahead of the 2.45 passenger and parcels, so not advertised), and 3.40 Basingstoke and Guildford.
Post 1967 it was the Yeovil already mentioned, 0230 Weymouth (non passenger), 0245 Bomo and Pompey pass and news, and the 0340.
The Waterloo trains had a fair amount of passenger accommodation, unlike the others, and I remember the 0140 Yeovil being 2 vans and 5 mk 1's, initially working back as a passenger to Sarum, then Basing, then ECS to Clapham Yard; eventually the set got more intensive use.

With all this night traffic, how did they manage to fit in the engineering works? I thought the reason trains didn't run during the night on some lines was to enable engineering work.

infobleep said:

With all this night traffic, how did they manage to fit in the engineering works? I thought the reason trains didn't run during the night on some lines was to enable engineering work.

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Don't think H&S Rules were quite so stringent in those days,e.g, not requiring total possessions etc.

infobleep said:

With all this night traffic, how did they manage to fit in the engineering works? I thought the reason trains didn't run during the night on some lines was to enable engineering work.

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Southern had plenty of diversionary routes available for the handful of trains involved.
SLW was more commonly used past work sites and the work was less mechanised.

ChiefPlanner said:

Waterloo - Yoevil was (I think) 0140 - there was an 02xx to Portsmouth........

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Were there also a few suburban services through the night from Waterloo? I can't put my hands on old timetables, but seem to remember a few trains at irregular intervals (stopping most, but not all stations) in the early hours on the Kingston Roundabout and maybe the Hounslow Loop.

Presumably mainly intended as staff trains added to the public timetable for the benefit of the few late night punters. The trains may have been superseded by the much better Night Bus network into the suburbs these days.

There were indeed, along with several off Holborn to Orpington. Originally for the benefit of Fleet St IIRC, but they went long before the papers left.

infobleep said:

With all this night traffic, how did they manage to fit in the engineering works? I thought the reason trains didn't run during the night on some lines was to enable engineering work.

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A lot more work was carried out with trains running, both during the day and at night. Sadly, a lot more track workers ended up dead or seriously injured as well.

Bald Rick said:

A lot more work was carried out with trains running, both during the day and at night. Sadly, a lot more track workers ended up dead or seriously injured as well.

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I guess for the interests of safety it's better to run less trains and save lives. I can't believe any sane person would want someone to be killed just so they can board a later train.

What would have happened if we still had goods pick up services running by rail? A lot of that use to happen at night didn't it.

I'm sure companies are forever investing in finding new ways of doing engineering work more quickly, which might save money and as a by product enable more trains to run at night.

I mean parts of the London Underground are going to be 24 hour at weekends. However that covers less millage than a main line.

infobleep said:

With all this night traffic, how did they manage to fit in the engineering works? I thought the reason trains didn't run during the night on some lines was to enable engineering work.

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Actually on the major routes they were busier at night than in the daytime. The WCML was particularly so, and even through Taunton there was more traffic per hour at night than in the daytime. In addition to what we are discussing here, much of this was freight. This was typically slow, and would have been a nuisance to express passenger services if it was out in the daytime. In any event there was more commercial demand for it at night.

The goods avoiding loop to the south of Taunton station for freight services, as an example, was staffed for two shifts, 6 pm to 2 am and 2 am to 10 am. It was closed during the day. Likewise the bankers on Wellington bank up to Whiteball summit worked similar hours, there were no heavy freights to push during the day.

What would have happened if we still had goods pick up services running by rail? A lot of that use to happen at night didn't it.

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To be precise, no. The local pick-up freight services generally ran in the daytime, many starting in the morning, and worked out and back from yards at major points to serve the goods yards and private sidings. It was the trunk services between these main points that ran overnight, so freight was picked up locally during the day, ran long distance overnight, and was delivered to the receiving yard the next morning.

The old GWR 47xx 2-8-0 class was the largest heavy freight loco on that system, they lasted until the early 1960s. I read that at lunchtime the whole class was just sat on shed, and a visitor then might think they never did any work, whereas at midnight they all were out on the line on long-distance work.

I guess for the interests of safety it's better to run less trains and save lives.

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I believe the improvements in safety are fully down to improved procedures, and not really connected with the reduction of night trains. In any event, there seems still some way to go - the number of on-track plant and trolley runaways at worksites on gradients is getting unacceptable, but I can recall no such instance from long ago when, to be honest, the gang foreman would never have got into the sort of basic blunders that seems to happen with these units nowadays.

there were also motorail trains, one used to leave Paddigton about midnight. you drove to Paddingon in your car, handed it over to BR staff who would load it onto specially adapted wagons while you went into the sleeping car. The train terminated at St austell

Road improvements especially the Tamar road bridge finished this service

Another bygone service was mail by rail (TPO's) where letters and parcels sorted out en route

341o2 said:

there were also motorail trains, one used to leave Paddigton about midnight. you drove to Paddingon in your car, handed it over to BR staff who would load it onto specially adapted wagons while you went into the sleeping car. The train terminated at St austell

Road improvements especially the Tamar road bridge finished this service

Another bygone service was mail by rail (TPO's) where letters and parcels sorted out en route

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There was even a steam hauled motorail service from Surbiton to Okehampton was there not? Although I think this was a daytime service, so maybe slightly off topic. Regarding TPOs, sadly all gone by the late 90s.

THere used to be a late evening train out of Derby to Glasgow from London which must have travelled pretty late at night though I dont know much about it.

Sounds like the St Pancras to Scotland sleeper, ran into the 70's.

ChiefPlanner said:

Waterloo - Yoevil was (I think) 0140 - there was an 02xx to Portsmouth.

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Ah, so if my father had hung around at Waterloo for another hour or so then he could have caught a train to Guildford and saved a lot of aggro

Remember about 1960 going on holiday to the Norfolk Broads. Train left Man Picc about 22.45 on a friday night, got off at Norwich think about 7.00. Any information on this working would be appreciated.

satisnek said:

Ah, so if my father had hung around at Waterloo for another hour or so then he could have caught a train to Guildford and saved a lot of aggro

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No, it went via Eastleigh

RayE said:

Remember about 1960 going on holiday to the Norfolk Broads. Train left Man Picc about 22.45 on a friday night, got off at Norwich think about 7.00. Any information on this working would be appreciated.

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Brilliant - that's the first time I've ever heard of an overnight running on that route

RayE said:

Remember about 1960 going on holiday to the Norfolk Broads. Train left Man Picc about 22.45 on a friday night, got off at Norwich think about 7.00. Any information on this working would be appreciated.

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There used to be an overnight summer friday night service from Manchester to Yarmouth (although in some years it started from Manchester Victoria)

Bevan Price said:

There used to be an overnight summer friday night service from Manchester to Yarmouth (although in some years it started from Manchester Victoria)

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Thanks Bevan. Can't remember anything about the journey except waking up in Norfolk.

satisnek said:

Ah, so if my father had hung around at Waterloo for another hour or so then he could have caught a train to Guildford and saved a lot of aggro

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There were also in the 1940s-60s a large number of non-advertised services through the night from Waterloo to Portsmouth and Aldershot, for navy and army personnel returning to base respectively. On Sunday nights in particular there would be up to six trains to EACH destination, plus others to points like Salisbury. The trains concerned came back as the first morning departures from the country end, and were formed of electric stock, 12COR for Portsmouth and 8BIL for Aldershot. I never really understood why they were not advertised, but all the military personnel knew about them. From late evening through to early morning there would always be one sat at a platform waiting to go which those arriving could be bundled straight in to, patrolled by both railway and military police. The Portsmouths stopped at Guildford.

There was also a longstanding 0130 express passenger to Exeter and points west. Railway author Hamilton Ellis wrote (in a train magazine in the 1950s) about taking it in 1935 to get a last ride on the Lynton & Barnstaple narrow gauge; he wrote it was handled at some very substantial speeds from Waterloo to Salisbury, and then on to Exeter, by a couple of King Arthur 4-6-0s.

Bevan Price said:

There were several newspaper trains out of Waterloo & Victoria that also conveyed passengers....... and one from Waterloo to at least Eastleigh. I never did them myself, but a few hardy "haulage bashers" used them to score the locos.
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The Eastleigh one actually went all the way to Weymouth, but the passenger coaches came off at Bournemouth, passengers for Weymouth had to wait there for the first 33/1 and TC down to Weymouth. I did it with a 73 back in the early 80s.

If only it was economical and safe to run such late services now. Be so much easier when going for a night out in London. At least it's economical on new years Eve as far as Guildford at least (on the Portsmouth Direct line I travel on that is).

Up to the sad demise of postal overnight trains there used to be two trains leaving B'ham New Street (in the early hours)to the West the "Mail" 1V46 and the "little Mail" 1V50, in the 1960's and 70's these trains used to call at Ashchurch on a Monday only (for military personal) 1V46 ran from Newcastle to Bristol & 1V50 ran from Leeds to Bristol,they carried passenger coaches from Sunday to Saturday.Saltley train crews worked these trains from Sheffield to Bristol with a change of crews at New Street.

Wyvern said:

THere used to be a late evening train out of Derby to Glasgow from London which must have travelled pretty late at night though I dont know much about it.

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1S24 2130 St Pancras - Glasgow Central which attached 2 sleepers at Nottingham (dep 2354) and ran via Derby (dep 0026), Sheffield, Leeds, the S&C and the GSW (i.e. via Annan & Kilmarnock). The return was 1M98 2350 Glasgow Central - Nottingham (which I used frequently) as it left Derby at 0618 and got me to work in time for the 0700 shift. Rarely was there more than a handful of passengers on it but in the winter after a long cycle ride into Derby it was like heaven, the steam heat coaches being toasty warm.

This train is traceable back to the 1930s when it ran from Euston to Glasgow St. Enoch via Northampton and Market Harborough. Sometime in the 80s it lost its passenger accommodation and became 3S24 2330 Leicester-Glasgow parcels, then it became 3S24 2330 Nottingham - Glasgow parcels and finally 3E00 2354 Nottingham - Leeds parcels.

I worked in Nottingham control, Derby PSB and Trent PSB from the 70s through to the nineties and a summer Friday night was the busiest night of the week with all of the west country holiday trains and oddities like the 0030 Sheffield - Portsmouth via Nottingham and the MML, a Nottingham - Newquay via Leicester and Nuneaton, and a Leeds - Bournemouth via the MML.

My most enduring memories of that time though surround 1M10 2359 (Mon - Fri, 0010 Sun) Sheffield - St. Pancras. The station allowances for parcel & mail working were extremely generous and it took no less than 5 hours 20 minutes to run from Sheffield to London. I caught it frequently and it was well used, even in the week, arriving Derby at 0046 and departing at 0115 arriving into a deserted St. Pancras at 0519. On Sundays it took even longer often being diverted via Leicester (RR) Melton, Manton and Corby then back onto the main line at Glendon North. What with that and SL working in the London area a St. Pancras arrival at 0700 (6 hrs 50 mins journey time) was not unusual. Compare that with the fastest train today being around two hours for the same journey!

The return was 1E03 0005 (Mon - Sat, 0030 Sun) St. Pancras - Sheffied which was much quicker than its southbound equivalent. Running via Nottingham and Derby it only took 4 hours 30 mins!

I could go on - 1M58 2030 (I think) Peterborough - Crewe mail/passenger via Leicester and Derby which combined with 1M77 2000 Lincoln - Derby main/passenger and returned as 1E74 0044 Crewe - Peterborough detaching a Lincoln portion at Derby to form 1E88 0222 Derby - Lincoln mail/passenger.

They all lost their passenger accommodation sometime in the late 70s early 80s and ran for years after that as mail trains.

Then there was the wonderful 2P85 2239 (Mon- Fri) Nottingham - Derby loco-hauled and loading up to sometimes 16 vehicles. Basically it was just a stock balancing exercise conveying two stock circuits from Nottingham to Derby for changeover plus odd parcel vehicles. It returned as 2D85 0125 (Tue - Sat) Derby - Nottingham which again conveyed as many as 16 vehicles. Frequently there were no passengers at all on the 0125 but the 2239 from Nottingham was busy, if only with rail staff coming off shift at 2200!

1M10 was indeed a hellfire overnight - did this many times in the 80's on a ALR. Ironically, on a Monday morning it tended to run as 0019 Derby-St. Pancras and arrived at the blocks just before 4am. The move off 1M10, was to bale at Bedford for 1F06 - 0427 St.Pancras-Derby Parcels that also included a BSK. One morning a got off bleary eyed at Kettering to realise that the train was formed ONLY of the BSK - my shortest set whilst bashing! Surprisingly the 45/1 was quick off the mark.

There used to be an overnight HST (yes HST) from Kings Cross to Edinburgh via Leeds. I remember travelling on it in about 1987.

So many memories of the Friday/Saturday night holidaymakers to the South-West, brilliant stuff. HSTs were used on some as well as hauled stock during the late 80s and the early 90s I think, around 22:30 off Newcastle. For variety I also liked to hop across to Carlisle or zip up to Glasgow or Edinburgh to pick up a spark down the WCML on the Penzance/Newquay/Plymouth/Paignton etc..... Standing in New Street for an hour or so to change loco and then onto Temple Meads and points South-West. Both New St and Temple Meads had a buffet was open all night which enabled a little bit of leg stretching and cups of tea, not to mention watching the loco changes at New St at oh deary me o'clock.. I look back at the timetables from that era now with so much interest and affection as it was a different world........

Another run I really enjoyed was the internal Scottish overnighter from Edinburgh/Glasgow to Inverness. Got into Inverness at about 04:30, not much to do but wait until the Far North Line train left about 06:30.

Cracking stuff.
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Mag_seven said:

There used to be an overnight HST (yes HST) from Kings Cross to Edinburgh via Leeds. I remember travelling on it in about 1987.

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Looking at the 1984/85 timetable there were a couple of late night / overnight HST workings on the ECML between Newcastle and KX. Northbound FO there was a 22:55 off The Cross into Newcastle at 03:15 so whether this is classed as late night or overnight is up to the reader. This stopped at Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Darlington and Durham. Similarly southbound there was a SO 23:00 into KX at 04:04 Sunday morning calling at Chester-le-Street, Durham, Darlington, York, Doncaster, Retford, Newark, Grantham, and Peterborough. This also got 90 minutes from Peterborough to KX so may have gone via Hertford... ??

This was the time when the sleepers were running from KX too.

Don't have access to an 87 TT but I'm sure someone does.... It would be interesting to see the changes.

Well into the 70s there was a 01 25 Crewe to Cardiff and a 00 30 Cardiff to Crewe. Well into the 80s there was a 01 10 Bristol T.M. to Milford Haven which was Steam Heating 37 worked..

Hi,
In 1968, while I was still at school, we used to travel quite often on the 1900 from Glasgow Queen St, to Edinburgh for the 2020 Edinburgh to Kings Cross on a Friday night. This train was normally a Toton Peak to Newcastle and a Deltic forward to Kings Cross. It had about 5 passenger coaches and 6 vans. It arrived in Kings Cross just before 0500 usually. We then spent the day in London and returned overnight on Saturday night from St. Pancras to Glasgow getting into Central about 0900 on Sunday morning. The good old days.