Serco for Sleeper

marks87 · 14 Jan 2015

cf111 said:
The Sleeper Business Case (click here) has this in it:

and

Apologies for the awful formatting but it's better on the document linked on pages 7 and 26.

I am no expert on ORCATS so I can't offer any comment, but maybe someone will be able to!

"Favourable" and "over-rewarding" are all relative.

If I ran a one-person train once a day non-stop in one direction and received 1p more than the standard single fare on that route, I'd be classed as "over-rewarded".

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Altnabreac · 14 Jan 2015

Neil Williams said:
I don't know. Possibly have a separate seated coach. Depends on what is being ordered.

I can see them wanting to withdraw from the Fort William seats, but we shall see. Depends if ScotRail could resource a non-Sleeper alternative.

Neil

The Fort William day service (and indeed the Dalwhinnie - Inverness day service that everyone forgets about) cannot be withdrawn by the franchisee.

Caledonian Sleeper ITT - 4.4.2.3 Service Patterns said:
As such service pattern changes should not result in the removal of access to the Caledonian Sleeper Services where there is no reasonable alternative access to the Caledonian Sleeper Services (e.g. at Highland rural locations), or where services provide specific connections (e.g. a commuter service between Dalwhinnie and Inverness; services between Oban and Crianlarich, and Mallaig and Fort William; and the first/ last services of the day between Glasgow and Fort William). The Caledonian Sleeper Services will be required to connect at Crianlarich with an early morning ScotRail service arriving at Oban before 08:30. The interchange time at Crianlarich will be between 15 and 40 minutes. The Fort William service will be required to call at either Glasgow Central or Glasgow Queen Street (low level stations) in order to provide a direct connection for Glasgow.

The ITT requires a continued Couchette/Seat service to Fort William.

What the ITT calls Couchettes (but in the bid are the Business class beds), bikes and luggage for sleeper passengers all have to run through from Fort William to Euston meaning the current swap of coaches at Edinburgh can't be continued exactly as it is now once the new stock arrives.

Seated (budget) passengers can be made to change at Edinburgh if "operational requirements" make it necessary but the ITT prefers them to run through to Euston as well so I expect this is what the bid is proposing once new stock arrives.

They could still propose adding the Lounge Car and/or an additional seating car for Fort William day passengers at Edinburgh so long as this was separated from the luggage/couchette passengers who must run right through.

My suspicion is the 3 Highland portions will be evened out to either 6/5/5 or 8/4/4 depending on ongoing maintenance requirements at Inverness.

HSTEd · 14 Jan 2015

Well if the new slepeer stock was fitted with cabs they would gain an extra car length at Euston because the locomotive that hauls it into the platform would not be there any more.

Altnabreac · 14 Jan 2015

HSTEd said:
Well if the new slepeer stock was fitted with cabs they would gain an extra car length at Euston because the locomotive that hauls it into the platform would not be there any more.

Was interested to observe the Auckland - Wellington service being driven into Britomart (the terminal station in Auckland) with the locomotive on the rear of the train for subsequent departure and the driver speaking via portable radio to a staff member standing on an open platform of the luggage van at the front of the train as it proceeded into the station.

Not sure that would pass a UK safety case though...

NotATrainspott · 14 Jan 2015

HSTEd said:
Well if the new slepeer stock was fitted with cabs they would gain an extra car length at Euston because the locomotive that hauls it into the platform would not be there any more.

Replacing the 20m Mk2 carriages with modern 23m carriages would take up all this new space.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Altnabreac said:
Was interested to observe the Auckland - Wellington service being driven into Britomart (the terminal station in Auckland) with the locomotive on the rear of the train for subsequent departure and the driver speaking via portable radio to a staff member standing on an open platform of the luggage van at the front of the train as it proceeded into the station.

Not sure that would pass a UK safety case though...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwidjGWFMUs

Seems to be how they get the Night Riviera stock out of Penzance to the depot at Long Rock.

scotraildriver · 14 Jan 2015

NotATrainspott said:
Replacing the 20m Mk2 carriages with modern 23m carriages would take up all this new space.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwidjGWFMUs

Seems to be how they get the Night Riviera stock out of Penzance to the depot at Long Rock.

And how we shunt the Highland sleeper at Edinburgh and Fort William!

HSTEd · 14 Jan 2015

NotATrainspott said:
Replacing the 20m Mk2 carriages with modern 23m carriages would take up all this new space.

With one exception aren't all the vehicles used on the Caledonian Sleepers Mark 3s anyway? That would make them all 23m.

IIRC They only have a Mark 2 lounge car because a 23m one would make the formation too long.

Also a propelling move into or out of Euston? Good luck getting paths for that.

Flying Snail · 14 Jan 2015

HSTEd said:
With one exception aren't all the vehicles used on the Caledonian Sleepers Mark 3s anyway? That would make them all 23m.

IIRC They only have a Mark 2 lounge car because a 23m one would make the formation too long.

Also a propelling move into or out of Euston? Good luck getting paths for that.

Lounge and seated are Mk2 so 4 per train, extra 12m for these to be 23m cars.

Altnabreac · 15 Jan 2015

scotraildriver said:
And how we shunt the Highland sleeper at Edinburgh and Fort William!

Fair enough, interesting to know

Not sure you'd get permission for a Wembley to Euston propelling move though.

IanM · 15 Jan 2015

collector said:
Railcard/PRIV discounts do not seem to be permitted on the berth inclusive ticket types.

I have just spoken to one of Serco's "Guest Service Centre Ambassadors" in an attempt to book staff Priv travel on the Sleeper in May. The answer was (and I quote) "we don't yet have a policy on staff bookings, please call back on or after 1st April".

boom boom · 15 Jan 2015

I emailed serco about the issue of staff travel. Their reply was that they were joining ATOC and they expected to offer the same discounts to rail staff as First Scotrail do at present .No confirmation however,only an expectation.The rail staff travel website shows priv fares only till the end of the Scotrail period of operation.Scotrail staff will continue to get free travel thanks to an agreement between Serco and Abellio

berneyarms · 16 Jan 2015

Altnabreac said:
The Fort William day service (and indeed the Dalwhinnie - Inverness day service that everyone forgets about) cannot be withdrawn by the franchisee.

Shouldn't that be Kingussie-Inverness, or is that going to now start taking seated passengers at Dalwhinnie?

Altnabreac · 16 Jan 2015

berneyarms said:
Shouldn't that be Kingussie-Inverness, or is that going to now start taking seated passengers at Dalwhinnie?

It's listed by Transport Scotland in the ITT as Dalwhinnie but obviously at the moment only picks up from Kingussie so it's unclear what the intention is going forwards. Frankly I doubt anyone commutes from Dalwhinnie - Inverness but you could imagine it being useful for the odd person from Newtonmore?

berneyarms · 16 Jan 2015

Altnabreac said:
It's listed by Transport Scotland in the ITT as Dalwhinnie but obviously at the moment only picks up from Kingussie so it's unclear what the intention is going forwards. Frankly I doubt anyone commutes from Dalwhinnie - Inverness but you could imagine it being useful for the odd person from Newtonmore?

Thanks for that - interesting also about the requirement to provide a connection to Oban arriving there before 08:30.

That's going to be an interesting one to path. The current 05:20 Glasgow Queen Street-Oban and 05:21 Oban-Glasgow Queen Street cross at Ardlui, and assuming these trains do not change, that would mean the sleeper will have to cross with the 05:21 ex-Oban at Crianlarich at 06:30, which would have it running an hour and 15 minutes earlier than at present.

Altnabreac · 16 Jan 2015

berneyarms said:
Thanks for that - interesting also about the requirement to provide a connection to Oban arriving there before 08:30.

That's going to be an interesting one to path. The current 05:20 Glasgow Queen Street-Oban and 05:21 Oban-Glasgow Queen Street cross at Ardlui, and assuming these trains do not change, that would mean the sleeper will have to cross with the 05:21 ex-Oban at Crianlarich at 06:30, which would have it running an hour and 15 minutes earlier than at present.

I guess one option is for the Sleeper to run in the path of the 05:20 as far as Crianlarich with the 05.20 running circa 40 mins earlier to cross the 05.21 ex Oban at Crianlarich and then waiting at Crianlarich for the sleeper to catch up.

This would probably be possible as effectively the 05.20 ex Q Street acts mainly as a positioning move until Crianlarich.

It's tricky to change the 05.20's path after Crianlarich as it now acts as school transport for pupils from Dalmally and Taynuilt to Oban.

This document here has some details and also mentions the future Sleeper retiming to connect with the morning service:
http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/moderngov/documents/s94330/Item 18 OLI-train report.pdf

berneyarms · 16 Jan 2015

Altnabreac said:
I guess one option is for the Sleeper to run in the path of the 05:20 as far as Crianlarich with the 05.20 running circa 40 mins earlier to cross the 05.21 ex Oban at Crianlarich and then waiting at Crianlarich for the sleeper to catch up.

This would probably be possible as effectively the 05.20 ex Q Street acts mainly as a positioning move until Crianlarich.

It's tricky to change the 05.20's path after Crianlarich as it now acts as school transport for pupils from Dalmally and Taynuilt to Oban.

This document here has some details and also mentions the future Sleeper retiming to connect with the morning service:
http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/moderngov/documents/s94330/Item 18 OLI-train report.pdf

Not sure how feasible having the sleeper and the 05:20 ex-Queen Street both at Crianlarich would be - the tracks at the loops on the West Highland aren't bi-directional are they?

D6975 · 16 Jan 2015

Given that the sleeper will be required to call at one of the Glasgow stations, the early morning Oban will not be needed from Glasgow, the sleeper will effectively replace it. It can start at Crianlarich, getting there by being dropped off the early morning Oban-Q St.
This would fill all the service requirements. It might however result in the sleeper being a bit cosy sometimes though.

Altnabreac · 16 Jan 2015

D6975 said:
Given that the sleeper will be required to call at one of the Glasgow stations, the early morning Oban will not be needed from Glasgow, the sleeper will effectively replace it. It can start at Crianlarich, getting there by being dropped off the early morning Oban-Q St.
This would fill all the service requirements.

Perfect plan apart from there being no crews or stock available in Crianlarich...

It effectively only runs from Glasgow now as ECS until Crianlarich.

What used to happen was an early ECS move Glasgow - Arrochar for the morning commuter train back to Glasgow. This has instead been extended to Oban to provide a school transport service and is provided in full as a public service despite (presumably) attracting few passengers before Crianlarich.

The Arrochar - Glasgow service is now served by an Oban based crew / unit which runs through from Oban but again is effectively ECS until Arrochar as there will not be many Oban - Glasgow commuters.

These are really positioning moves for units / staff that are provided in public service just in case the odd person wants to use them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

berneyarms said:
Not sure how feasible having the sleeper and the 05:20 ex-Queen Street both at Crianlarich would be - the tracks at the loops on the West Highland aren't bi-directional are they?

Seem to remember Royal Scotsman / railtours running Oban - Fort William via Crianlarich in the past which presumably involved wrong way moves in Crianlarich loop. Not sure how practically the signalling is set up to do this on a regular basis?

scotraildriver · 16 Jan 2015

Altnabreac said:
Perfect plan apart from there being no crews or stock available in Crianlarich...

It effectively only runs from Glasgow now as ECS until Crianlarich.

What used to happen was an early ECS move Glasgow - Arrochar for the morning commuter train back to Glasgow. This has instead been extended to Oban to provide a school transport service and is provided in full as a public service despite (presumably) attracting few passengers before Crianlarich.

The Arrochar - Glasgow service is now served by an Oban based crew / unit which runs through from Oban but again is effectively ECS until Arrochar as there will not be many Oban - Glasgow commuters.

These are really positioning moves for units / staff that are provided in public service just in case the odd person wants to use them.

To be fair the 5.20 from Oban is steadily getting busier, with around 15-20 people most mornings from Oban. The early one from Glasgow is indeed very quiet but usually a few on board.

Altnabreac · 16 Jan 2015

scotraildriver said:
To be fair the 5.20 from Oban is steadily getting busier, with around 15-20 people most mornings from Oban. The early one from Glasgow is indeed very quiet but usually a few on board.

Interesting that's more than I thought. Good to see its getting used as a relatively new service.

The new school traffic seems to be quite successful as well.

D6975 · 16 Jan 2015

Altnabreac said:
Perfect plan apart from there being no crews or stock available in Crianlarich...

Try reading my post.....

The stock/crew would come up from Oban on the 05.xx ex Oban

30907 · 16 Jan 2015

D6975 said:
Try reading my post.....

The stock/crew would come up from Oban on the 05.xx ex Oban

And the 2036 off Oban terminate at Crianlarich and return ECS to balance?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Neil Williams said:
I don't believe you're understanding what I'm saying.

I don't object at all to there being categories of room on board:-
- Seat
- Shared berth (debatable, and this has been removed from fGW's Sleeper)
- Private twin room
- Private single room
- Private premium single room (or whatever, though the latter is IMO taking the mick at present as they are identical and all you get is a basic bit of extra service).

What I do think is that overlaying First Class and Standard Class on those categories is unnecessarily confusing[1], and thus it would be better if the Sleeper was entirely Standard Class, but instead when paying your supplement you pay a supplement (or indeed a global fare as they're selling on their website) for the relevant room category on top of a Standard, not First Class, ticket.

[1] And, absent single-fare pricing on IC services, expensive. Most business travellers these days are not allowed First Class, but are likely to be able to convince their boss to pay for a single room provided it doesn't say First Class on it.

Neil

Standard European practice for sleepers is to charge approx the same per compartment, however many people are in it.
In Western Europe first class gets you an ensuite - but interestingly, the Austrian railways website includes the first class upgrade in the compartment cost not the fare cost.

EltonRoad · 16 Jan 2015

berneyarms said:
that would mean the sleeper will have to cross with the 05:21 ex-Oban at Crianlarich at 06:30, which would have it running an hour and 15 minutes earlier than at present.

If the Sleeper can get to Fort William by 8.30 am (1 hr 25 mins earlier than at present) then it would also connect with the first Mallaig service, giving a 9.53 am arrival at Mallaig. Currently the earliest you can get there is 1.34 pm, and that's following a 2 hr+ wait at Fort William. A 9.53 arrival will connect with the morning ferries to Skye and the Small Isles. All these things are bound to improve the attractiveness of the Sleeper.

Altnabreac · 16 Jan 2015

D6975 said:
Try reading my post.....

The stock/crew would come up from Oban on the 05.xx ex Oban

Yes but wouldn't that need a whole extra crew at Oban each day for less than half a day's diagram?

scotraildriver · 16 Jan 2015

Seem to remember Royal Scotsman / railtours running Oban - Fort William via Crianlarich in the past which presumably involved wrong way moves in Crianlarich loop. Not sure how practically the signalling is set up to do this on a regular basis?[/QUOTE]

The points on the WHL loops are sprung/hydraulic so they always remain in the same position and are simply pushed across when going the opposite way. So going g from Oban to Fort William is easy. The train arrives at Crianlarich from Oban, then moves forward beyond the points by pushing them across, the driver changes ends, observes the points set indicator is normal indicating the points have moved back across and goes back into the platform. It is possible to enter the opposite platform but this involves the driver manually pumping the points across, clamping them and inserting a scotch to ensure they don't move. All a bit of a faff and takes a while.

Class 170101 · 16 Jan 2015

Altnabreac said:
Not sure you'd get permission for a Wembley to Euston propelling move though.

I don't think you will either. Crown Point to Norwich Station isn't done anymore as far as I know even though in days gone by it was.

najaB · 16 Jan 2015

Class 170101 said:
I don't think you will either...

Honest question: If they are building new coaches for the sleeper, how difficult would it be to get a set of auxiliary driving controls in the end coach so that it wasn't a propelling move?

Altnabreac · 16 Jan 2015

scotraildriver said:
Seem to remember Royal Scotsman / railtours running Oban - Fort William via Crianlarich in the past which presumably involved wrong way moves in Crianlarich loop. Not sure how practically the signalling is set up to do this on a regular basis?

Click to expand...

The points on the WHL loops are sprung/hydraulic so they always remain in the same position and are simply pushed across when going the opposite way. So going g from Oban to Fort William is easy. The train arrives at Crianlarich from Oban, then moves forward beyond the points by pushing them across, the driver changes ends, observes the points set indicator is normal indicating the points have moved back across and goes back into the platform. It is possible to enter the opposite platform but this involves the driver manually pumping the points across, clamping them and inserting a scotch to ensure they don't move. All a bit of a faff and takes a while.

So if I'm understanding this right the 05.20 from Glasgow (retimed to 4.45 or so) could cross the ex Oban 05.21 at Crianlarich in the correct platform then draw forward northwards, then the driver changes ends and reverses back into the wrong side (southbound) platform to await the arrival of the Sleeper which draws in to the correct (northbound) platform.

A slight faff but given there would be a 40 minute wait for the sleeper not impossible and then both trains can proceed northbound from their respective platforms without needing to clamp the points.

All assuming the RETB could cope with that?

Bletchleyite · 16 Jan 2015

30907 said:
And the 2036 off Oban terminate at Crianlarich and return ECS to balance?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Standard European practice for sleepers is to charge approx the same per compartment, however many people are in it.
In Western Europe first class gets you an ensuite - but interestingly, the Austrian railways website includes the first class upgrade in the compartment cost not the fare cost.

This makes more sense to me, because I think people are more likely to want a single en-suite room than a First Class seat on a daytime train.

Neil

scotraildriver · 16 Jan 2015

Altnabreac said:
So if I'm understanding this right the 05.20 from Glasgow (retimed to 4.45 or so) could cross the ex Oban 05.21 at Crianlarich in the correct platform then draw forward northwards, then the driver changes ends and reverses back into the wrong side (southbound) platform to await the arrival of the Sleeper which draws in to the correct (northbound) platform.

A slight faff but given there would be a 40 minute wait for the sleeper not impossible and then both trains can proceed northbound from their respective platforms without needing to clamp the points.

All assuming the RETB could cope with that?

Yes that can happen. No problem for RETB, the signaller just issues the Crianlarich Shunting token and the driver can do what he likes, within the station limit boards. And yes, both trains can depart north without issue.

Serco for Sleeper

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