Delay repay on business tickets

maniacmartin · 24 Jan 2015

(Split from another thread)

When on expenses, having the most expensive ticket can be useful if you can claim and keep any Delay Repay

RailUK Forums

najaB · 24 Jan 2015

maniacmartin said:
When on expenses, having the most expensive ticket can be useful if you can claim and keep any Delay Repay

I wouldn't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.

Bletchleyite · 25 Jan 2015

maniacmartin said:
When on expenses, having the most expensive ticket can be useful if you can claim and keep any Delay Repay

Claiming and keeping Delay Repay on business travel would appear to be a very clear case of defrauding your employer. Not a great idea.

Neil

reb0118 · 25 Jan 2015

Neil Williams said:
Claiming and keeping Delay Repay on business travel would appear to be a very clear case of defrauding your employer.

I think you are probably correct but to play devil's advocate it is not you the passenger who is delayed so therefore should it not be you the passenger who is compensated for any delay incurred?

Discuss..............

bnm · 25 Jan 2015

Neil Williams said:
Claiming and keeping Delay Repay on business travel would appear to be a very clear case of defrauding your employer. Not a great idea.

Neil

Why is that fraud? It is the passenger who is being compensated for a delayed journey, not the employer said passenger works for.

Merseysider · 25 Jan 2015

bnm said:
Why is that fraud? It is the passenger who is being compensated for a delayed journey, not the employer said passenger works for.

Unless you look at the bigger picture, and see it as the employer losing productivity/time due to the delay, in which case the employer is the one due the compensation.

Anyway, rather off topic...

bnm · 25 Jan 2015

JakeF said:
Unless you look at the bigger picture, and see it as the employer losing productivity/time due to the delay, in which case the employer is the one due the compensation.

Most employers expect any time missed by salaried staff, because of transport delays, to be made up. Those that clock on or are hourly paid simply don't get paid until they start work.

najaB · 25 Jan 2015

Neil Williams said:
Claiming and keeping Delay Repay on business travel would appear to be a very clear case of defrauding your employer. Not a great idea.

I also disagree. It was the employee who was delayed, had to wait on a cold platform, missed out on time with their family, got home at silly-o'clock in the morning, etc. not the employer.

If a ticket is refunded, the employee is duty-bound to repay that to the employer, but not compensation for a delay.

yorkie · 25 Jan 2015

Neil Williams said:
Claiming and keeping Delay Repay on business travel would appear to be a very clear case of defrauding your employer. Not a great idea.

Neil

I disagree.

The default position is that it is the passenger who is entitled to compensation.

It would surely only potentially be fraud if the employer had a clause in the contract stating that it was they, and not the employee, who should be entitled to delay compensation, however I have my doubts about how reasonable that would be...

If the passenger was delayed on their outward journey and wasn't expected to make any time up, then that might not seem unreasonable. Likewise, if the return journey didn't eat into any of the employees own time, or if they were paid overtime for the delay.

But if the passenger was delayed on their return journey and if the delay was eating into the passengers' personal time, for which they were not being paid overtime (which would be the likely scenario case in the example of maniacmartin), I'd say any such clause would be totally unreasonable (and shouldn't be lawful, I'd argue), and it would be absurd to suggest a passenger could be considered guilty of 'fraud' for claiming compensation for being late home from work!

maniacmartin · 25 Jan 2015

I'm not paid by the hour and not paid overtime, so if I get home late, then it is indeed eating into my personal time. Also, my employer probably wouldn't know what to do with RTVs as The Trainline don't take them

If I was paid for the actual time spent on the train, things would of course be different.

Tom B · 25 Jan 2015

Presumably this depends on who lost the time - say you're an hour late to a meeting, the company has lost the time, if you're an hour late home, you've lost the time.

Also what your contract says about payment of travel time - there may be some people who don't get paid at all for their time travelling on business, whereas if you do you simply stick the delay on your timesheet.

Bletchleyite · 25 Jan 2015

reb0118 said:
I think you are probably correct but to play devil's advocate it is not you the passenger who is delayed so therefore should it not be you the passenger who is compensated for any delay incurred?

Discuss..............

If your contract of employment allows you to be paid overtime for travel, that is the organisation that should be compensating you, and the Delay Repay should go to them to fund that in part/in full.

If it doesn't, well, it's one of those things, just as if you had to work late for any other reason.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

najaB said:
If a ticket is refunded, the employee is duty-bound to repay that to the employer, but not compensation for a delay.

Delay Repay is in my view not compensation. It is in my view a partial refund, based as it is on the ticket price, for non-delivery of the service paid for. As the service is paid for by the employer, to me it is *very* clear it is the employer who should receive the money. If I owned a company this would be made *very* clear in the travel policy.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

bnm said:
Most employers expect any time missed by salaried staff, because of transport delays, to be made up. Those that clock on or are hourly paid simply don't get paid until they start work.

What, when they are travelling on business on a ticket paid for by their employer, within work time? Really? Tell me who that is so I don't have to go and work for them.

Commuting is different, as travel is in your own time and you are expected to make arrangements within your own time to get to work on time, and it is quite right that time lost on commuting delays should be made up. But in commuting this discussion is irrelevant, as because the employee pays for the ticket they of course get any Delay Repay.

Neil

dcsprior · 25 Jan 2015

I have in the past handed RTVs in to my employer's travel office. I don't know what my work's rules are but I think a fair approach is that whoever's time is lost is who gets the vouchers - so if the employer counts the travel time as work time then they should get the vouchers, otherwise the employee should get to keep them.

ainsworth74 · 25 Jan 2015

Neil Williams said:
Delay Repay is in my view not compensation. It is in my view a partial refund, based as it is on the ticket price, for non-delivery of the service paid for.

I disagree with your view and I believe so does the industry. Transpennine Express' delay repay claim form clearly states:

Our Passenger's Charter provides for compensation to customers who are delayed by 30 minutes or longer on any leg of their journey as a result of a failure of the railway industry.

Similarly CrossCountry tell us on their claim form that:

CrossCountry aims to provide the most punctual service possible, but when serious delays occur we will apologise and provide appropriate compensation.

East Midlands Trains again tell us on their Delay Repay page that:

The East Midlands Trains Delay Repay scheme is designed to provide you with an easy way to claim compensation for delays over 30 minutes.

Compensation is paid in the form of National Rail Vouchers, which can be used as payment (or part payment) towards any National Rail ticket purchase, including season tickets.

Meanwhile Virgin Trains dedicate an entire section of their passenger charter to 'Compensation' and within it tell us:

If your train is delayed or cancelled, or a delay or cancellation of
a Virgin train causes a delay to your overall journey, you may be
entitled to claim compensation...

...Under this scheme, if you hold a ticket for a single or return journey you can claim compensation for a delay of over 30 minutes, irrespective of what caused the delay.

Finally and perhaps most importantly the National Rail Conditions of Carriage clearly state:

Condition 42: Compensation for delays

(a) Where delays, cancellations or poor service arise for reasons within the control of a Train Company or Rail Service Company, you are entitled to compensation in accordance with the arrangements set out in that Train Companys Passengers Charter. This can be obtained from the relevant Train Companys ticket offices, customer relations office and internet sales site.

(b) The amount of compensation offered by each Train Company in its Passengers Charter varies from Train Company to Train Company. However, if you arrive more than 60 minutes late at your destination station you will, as a minimum, be entitled to compensation in the form of travel vouchers in accordance with the table below:

The document which explains the contract you enter into when buying a ticket talks at length about 'compensation' when delayed. Indeed the very same document has a completely different section (conditions 26, 27 & 28) dealing with 'refunds' and the section on compensation clearly states below the table determining your minimum compensation payments:

The table above does not apply if you are entitled to a refund in accordance with Condition 26.

To the railway industry it seems clear to me that if you suffer a delay you are getting compensated and only in very specific circumstances are you gaining a refund.

IanXC · 25 Jan 2015

Its worth checking on your employers policy on this - mine specifically states that any Delay Repay or other compensation for delays incurred is personally for the employee to keep.

bb21 · 25 Jan 2015

Seriously, why is there even a debate on this subject? Surely it is all academic anyway.

Bletchleyite · 25 Jan 2015

bb21 said:
Seriously, why is there even a debate on this subject? Surely it is all academic anyway.

Why should there not be a debate on it, or any other subject, provided it is in its own thread so those not interested can ignore it?

Neil

bb21 · 25 Jan 2015

Neil Williams said:
Why should there not be a debate on it, or any other subject, provided it is in its own thread so those not interested can ignore it?

Neil

I am not trying to stop you having a thread discussing it, I just don't think there is much to be gained from such a discussion. Whether it is fraudulent or not, no employer is going to want to spend time over an issue like this. I am not even sure that they can, given that claim details must be covered under data protection legislation.

I personally cannot see it being fraudulent. There is nothing saying that such compensation must be repaid to the employer. This is different to actual refunds, which will likely have tax implications for the employer.

craigwilson · 25 Jan 2015

Neil Williams said:
Why should there not be a debate on it, or any other subject, provided it is in its own thread so those not interested can ignore it?

Neil

Neil Williams said:
Delay Repay is in my view not compensation. It is in my view a partial refund, based as it is on the ticket price, for non-delivery of the service paid for. As the service is paid for by the employer, to me it is *very* clear it is the employer who should receive the money. If I owned a company this would be made *very* clear in the travel policy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If a train is cancelled, and the employee therefore cannot make their meeting/visit and returns to their normal place of work - a full refund would be due from the TOC/agent (with no admin fee deducted), which employee should give to the employer if they paid for the ticket.

If, say, they had an all day meeting, and then suffered delays on their way home, eating into their own time, well all I can say is good luck with a policy like yours - I imagine many of your employees would tell you to whistle for it if you demanded their delay compensation in such a circumstance.

Hellfire · 29 Jan 2015

I've claimed quite a lot of delay repay over the last six months due to problems on the WCML. The latest was this week following power failures at Euston which meant I was an hour late.

My tickets are paid for by my employer. However, it is me that suffers when a train is delayed, on one occasion getting home after 2200 rather than the 1930 I should have been there.

I take the view that my employer pays because they want me to travel on its business. The employer suffers little or no financial loss or inconvenience if I am delayed. However, I suffer a great deal of inconvenience. I therefore have no problem in claiming the payment which I see as compensation and definitely not a refund on the ticket

PermitToTravel · 29 Jan 2015

This is quite a lot more clear cut with delayed flight compensation, which is a fixed value regardless of the cost of your ticket.

Bishopstone · 29 Jan 2015

IanXC said:
Its worth checking on your employers policy on this - mine specifically states that any Delay Repay or other compensation for delays incurred is personally for the employee to keep.

As does mine. There isn't a team within the firm resourced to file Delay Repay claims, so policy states if the employee can be bothered to do the form filling, they can keep the vouchers.

greatkingrat · 29 Jan 2015

If I buy a £10 train ticket, am reimbursed the £10 by my employer, and then receive an additional £5 from the TOC via Delay Repay, is there technically a taxable benefit due as I have been reimbursed more than the actual cost to me of the travel?

PermitToTravel · 29 Jan 2015

I'm pretty sure that the answer there is no - the actual cost of the travel is what you paid, and the compensation is unrelated to this.

DelayRepay · 29 Jan 2015

Bishopstone said:
As does mine. There isn't a team within the firm resourced to file Delay Repay claims, so policy states if the employee can be bothered to do the form filling, they can keep the vouchers.

I imagine it would cause an awful amount of confusion if I tried to hand my Delay Repay vouchers back into the payroll office. When I accidentally paid for a personal train journey on my company credit card, they struggled to work out how I could reimburse them... They would spend far more on admin trying to work out what to do with the voucher than the value of the voucher!

Bishopstone · 29 Jan 2015

Fahad said:
I'm pretty sure that the answer there is no - the actual cost of the travel is what you paid, and the compensation is unrelated to this.

Thank you. Having just pressed 'go' on my Self Assessment (very lastminute.com), I must concur with your ruling on this matter.

Hopefully the tax office is still busy working out the difference between a cake and a biscuit, for VAT purposes, aided by samples of both at elevenses.

Delay repay on business tickets

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