Drivers pay increases

MichaelAMW said:

. There is also not really anywhere much to go in professional terms, i.e. most drivers stay drivers, rather as used to be the case with coal miners, who also earned well in the UK. So, whilst teachers and doctors may well train for longer and start on a lower salary, there is the potential to be a deputy head or a consultant, who do earn more. There needs, therefore, to be more of a retention element to the drivers' pay as there is much less that can be offered to meet any desire for progression.

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You do know that the head guy in the UK arm of DBS started out life as a shunter, then progressed to driver? Now he's the CEO of the UK outfit. A lot of the managers also followed similar paths. So there are places to go. Training, mentoring, instructing. Management posts etc etc. There are plenty of places to go upwards from driving.

What I'm trying to say is that SOME drivers choose to stay drivers, just as SOME teachers decide to stay as classroom teachers and not progress up the career ladder. A lot of drivers have been on the railway a long long time and are not used to the idea of promotion or leaving the grade, but that is not to say that there is no where to go from driving.

It is a fallacy to think that because promotion is available, you are somehow being small minded or unambitious by not taking it. Often promotion just isn't worth the trouble that it brings.

Case in point 1. A family member (a teacher, one of six in my extended family) took a promotion to become deputy head at a private school. After nearly two years of constant pressure, she cracked and voluntarily asked to leave the post. She went back to being a class teacher the following month with her family life almost in tatters. She never saw her kids or her husband as the deputy post consumed all her free time. Weekday evenings, weekends etc.

Case in point 2. A good friend of mine in my former career. Took promotion and moved up the rank structure. Result? Almost unimaginable pressure, phone never stopped ringing, massive workload, projects, side projects and back burner projects to deal with. I have never seen a man so destroyed by his workload.

That is (can be) the cost of promotion. More responsibility brings more pressure. Sometimes you have to ask yourself, is it really worth it? Who am I doing it for? Am I going for promotion to fit in with some outdated social view that ambitious people go for promotion and lazy ones stay as they are, or am I happy where I am?

Slightly straying from the point you were making perhaps, but there ARE places to go from driving. The thing is that not a lot of people consider them in the first place or just consider them too much trouble!

steverailer said:

From my limited experience they deserve every penny. I earn similar to them as a OLE linesman. In the course of that work we use road rail trucks upto 26t. Having driven these, which are limited to a max of 20mph, in ice, fog and bad weather whilst on track and knowing how bloody hard it can be to stop in these conditions, I wouldn't like to try it in a full size train. We're luck in that our Machine controllers give us a brief on what is in our work area regarding points, signals, crossings ect, they have to know this for all of their route, which is a damnsite longer than the couple of mile we deal with. Add into this the muppets, sorry, passengers on the stations and the general public who could be about to throw something at them (had this myself in Glasgow and also been shot at with an air rifle).

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Spot on. And again, I reckon people would whinge and say "an OLE lineman earns how much?! They only do X, Y and Z..." And again you, like drivers end up feeling you have to explain that you work unsavoury hours in unsavoury locations, with a high level of responsibility in a safety critical post. But people forget that side of it!

Rather strangely our adversarial friend has gone rather quiet. I wonder why?

I deserve every penny for all the reasons listed already plus the horrendous shifts.

Sounds daft that but over a prolonged period not everybody can get out of bed at 01:30am in the middle of winter.

Seriously what time is a man supposed to go to bed to get up at that time? I'd say about 18:30 personally, well you try going to sleep at that time.

It's taking years off my life this, literally, all the studies show this and I've seen plenty of fresh young faces join the railway and be gone within a few months because it's brutal to be honest.

I used to work in a civilian capacity for GMP and any roles there that were 24/7 shifts were enhanced 33%. They'd advertise the wage as £30,000 for example plus 33% rotating shift allowance.

Our wage really isn't that high when you factor everything in.

HarleyDavidson said:

Rather strangely our adversarial friend has gone rather quiet. I wonder why?

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Considering they only learned about a train drivers salary (and managed to get that wrong too) at the same time they formed their opinion, whatever they do have to say probably wouldn't be worth reading!

HarleyDavidson said:

Maybe your right. But for us we always recommend getting games like Simon (4 colour repetition game from the 80's) and Bop-it, to get the reaction skills up to scratch. Bourdon you can download from the web & practice doing.

I can see where the jealousy comes from, as I have said when the sun is out & sky is blue and it's great, it's when you get degraded working that you really earn your dosh.

It may seem easy & a lot of the time it is, but you try dealing with a train full of grouchy commuters & tell them due to train fault they're going to be getting off at the next stop, in the cold & rain and waiting for however long for the next one & their going to be late AGAIN!

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I thought about applying but couldn't be bothered. The bourdon is to do with concentration, I believe. Then there is the Clocks, the Memory test (video of a Glop machine and its functions followed by questions among others) and an engineering exam. I'd most likely fall down on the memory test and the reactions, although my sister has a Simon machine somewhere. Hence I went onto the buses and have a similar shift pattern to what you describe, being a 4 day week with 9-10 hour shifts.

Much of what I would have said has already been covered, so I won't repeat, but in addition to the life-shortening reality of shifts starting at the crazy times they do there is the ever present reality that a medical condition can render you unfit to drive. There are lots of drivers who are lost to the profession long before retirement age and that may be another factor why the pay is so competitive. It isn't easy finding another profession if you are dumped out at the age of 50+.

The role is hugely responsible. I probably carry over 3000 passengers a day doing DOO and I can't afford to let a single one of them come to any harm whether the train is at a stand or on the move. Do many people have that many lives in their hands so directly in their day to day work? I am the guy squinting at the door monitors ensuring that the yawning morning rush commuters haven't snagged something in the doors and are going to get dragged along when I depart. They all look pretty tired as they board my train without even a flicker of a smile, yet I have got up and was scraping ice off the car at 3am and I'm still trying my best to concentrate fully. I'm half way through my day but it's only 8am.

We get paid well. I have a degree and ended up doing a job for close to half my current pay for many years. In that job I felt I deserved more, but in this one it feels about right. I remain grateful for what I have now, especially the pension, and I wish some other professions would get the same, but I'm not responsible for that. People make choices. There are so many variable that go into determining a salary that I have stopped questioning whether they are fair or not. What I don't like however is when people judge or knock a driver for earning what they do. Is it the drivers fault? But that said, when placed under scrutiny, yes I do think the pay is fair.

If just a couple of those 3000 faces I see each day as I pull into stations were to smile at me it would lift my spirits slightly. The newspaper vendor got a smile, the gateline staff got one, why not me? Is it because I am the face of delay? I have somehow become a representative of Network Rail - and an overpaid one at that. I am a harbinger of doom via my messages on the PA. I am not the face of a person who has been made late for my break by the same delay and I'm not the face of the person who will be patient with you as you block the doors in the crush, however miserable you may be towards me. In some respects the pay reflects huge responsibility, in other respects it acknowledges a very unique set of skills required and in another (and why not) it offers a form of compensation for having to sacrifice quite a lot.

DJ_K666 said:

I thought about applying but couldn't be bothered. The bourdon is to do with concentration, I believe. Then there is the Clocks, the Memory test (video of a Glop machine and its functions followed by questions among others) and an engineering exam. I'd most likely fall down on the memory test and the reactions, although my sister has a Simon machine somewhere. Hence I went onto the buses and have a similar shift pattern to what you describe, being a 4 day week with 9-10 hour shifts.

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We had a 4 day rota at my last bus depot but the shifts were all 12+ hours long but paid between 9 and 10 hours.

Jamesb1974 said:

It constantly amazes me that my salary is seen as fair game for debate on a public forum and that some posters seem to think that it compares to X, Y and Z job. I work for a private, profit making company. I do not take a wage from the public purse, yet the pay I earn is seen as fair game for comment (informed and ill informed).

At the risk of repeating what other people have said, if you think you are underpaid compared to a driver FIND ANOTHER JOB THAT PAYS MORE. I did. I left a well paid career to become a driver and now I earn a drivers wage because (Wait for it), I'M A DRIVER. If i wanted to earn a pilot's wage I would have probably retrained as a pilot. It really isn't difficult. You want more money or you think you are underpaid (like 99% of people do), then find something else. It isn't rocket science (another well paying job).

Now, can we find out what some of the other people on here do for a living and discuss their personal finances?

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I am a complaint manager in a rather specific area of the housing market. I know I don't earn what I could earn working in similar roles for other companies but I am only recently promoted so I will take the experience and move on. Many people could do what I do but I have a particular set of skills, ha ha. Train drivers however have a very specialised set of skills, I think they earn every penny they get. I have applied many times to be a driver and also an air traffic controller and I have failed. I am (Believe it or not) an intelligent man, but I obviously don't have what it takes at this current time to be a train driver or an air traffic controller. It is a hell of a lot of responsibility. I don't think some people appreciate that, as I may have mentioned before I had friends tell me when I applied that all you have to do is press a button. Yeah right.

10 reasons why a train driver should and do get paid their current salary:

1. Strong Union
2. Shifts
3. Responsibility
4. Training
5. Knowledge retention
6. Risk of death
7. Concentration levels
8. Repeated incidents and you are dismissed.
9. Driver retention
10. Risk of imprisonment if you are responsible for injury or death to the public.

I think train drivers are actually overpaid for the job we do in comparison to what others do in the public sector such as nurses, Police and fire brigade but that is the joys of not having the railway nationalised.

Do you know what I say when asked why am I paid "so much"?

Because I'm bloody good at my job!

TDK said:

10 reasons why a train driver should and do get paid their current salary:



1. Strong Union

2. Shifts

3. Responsibility

4. Training

5. Knowledge retention

6. Risk of death

7. Concentration levels

8. Repeated incidents and you are dismissed.

9. Driver retention

10. Risk of imprisonment if you are responsible for injury or death to the public.



I think train drivers are actually overpaid for the job we do in comparison to what others do in the public sector such as nurses, Police and fire brigade but that is the joys of not having the railway nationalised.

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Brilliant post that! I will have to save that when explaining why us signallers get a good wage!!

Although I must say (and this arguement has, and will, come up countless times) that some signallers are underpaid when you think they are paid less than the drivers rolling around on the tracks, and we have the exact same responsibility, and some may say we have a lot more responsibility(certain boxes excluded of course) than a singular driver.

And to think we are getting no pay rise this year, and RPI for the next 3 :cry:

orpine said:

I didn't meant to imply a degree was mandatory, I was using it as an example of the training required to get the role.

From an economics perspective, I'm guessing there isn't a shortage of people interesting in being a train driver? In theory that's one reason to pay lots - for a role no-one wants to do.

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The reason that train drivers are paid loads.

They are in control of and have responsibility for something very heavy moving very fast with little friction, meaning it's hard to stop quickly.

Inside many of those trains are large numbers of people and it's their job to get these people to their destination safely.

To do this they have a lot of training and have to pass both theoretical and practical assessments and are regularly reassessed to ensure they remain competent.

Add to that they have to know every part of their route and are assessed on that.

So yes, they're paid a lot, but from a worker who is now in an equally safety critical job in another industry (if I screw up members of the public could be hurt, maimed or killed and I could be held personally liable and be send to jail - just the same as a driver), I understand why.

Don't think a computer can do their job on the mainline anytime soon.

TDK said:

I think train drivers are actually overpaid for the job we do in comparison to what others do in the public sector such as nurses, Police and fire brigade but that is the joys of not having the railway nationalised.

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I dont actually think its your grade that's overpaid . I think that some public sector and a lot of other private sector jobs are grossly underpaid .

Im a guard now . But when I was at university I was planning on joining the police . The lack of recruitment coupled with the rumor around the time that I was graduating about putting the starting salary down to £19k made me quickly backtrack on that, £22.5k was low enough as it was . I went into a junior role in retail management for a whilst seeing as apart from my degree that was the only thing I had any experience of (was a weekend supervisor in a shop whilst at uni ) I quickly gathered that unless you where willing to break your back there was no money in retail and had been quite interested in joining the railway for a while so applied and ended up where I am now .

As many drivers have said , the shifts are one of the big things that I consider to be a big part of why you would want remunerating so much . Numerous studies have been conducted showing that rotating shift work takes years off your life .

Although I try to do lates most of the time, the extreme and variable shift work is the one thing that will probably make me leave, passing Medicals aside, as the variable rostering system plays havoc with your body and eating habits.

There's a whole variety of reasons why drivers have the pay they do and others have rehearsed the reasons.

There seems to be a section of people who think that drivers should be on minimum wage and doffing their hats to all and sundry. I agree that there are other jobs which could do with a decent pay rise, but that doesn't mean drivers pay has to drop to a lowest common denominator.

Whilst I fully appreciate the pay that I'm on and am grateful I have this opportunity, I also find it rather tiring whenever train drivers pay comes up in conversations or in the media. It's the same thing over and over, "nurses, police and firefighters don't get paid that much". Just because people feel that they are underpaid for their jobs, doesn't mean that we are overpaid for our jobs. We are lucky to have strong unions that happily negotiate on our behalves for better pay and conditions (which are forever changing). Yes, that's NEGOTIATE, not hold the country to ransom.

If they wanted to raise their wages, all they have to do is use their right to negotiate through their union. Is it our fault that they don't? Nope.

There's too much "I want everything for giving nothing" going around. Why are people so apathetic to bettering themselves? I've done my fair share of low paid dreary jobs and wasn't happy. I didn't sit around moaning "people earn more, so unfair, they don't deserve it". I got off my butt and found something better.

If you don't like your job, don't whinge at others, go out there and find something that will make you happy and cover your bills. Don't have the right qualifications? Join up to night classes in a local college. Only you yourself can change your path, no point waiting for someone else to do it for you, as it won't happen.

My depot is rather new and a large percentage are drivers off the street. People who came from many different professions, backgrounds and countries. So many background stories but one thing in common. They weren't happy with what they were doing so they looked and found this job.

TDK said:

10 reasons why a train driver should and do get paid their current salary:

1. Strong Union
2. Shifts
3. Responsibility
4. Training
5. Knowledge retention
6. Risk of death
7. Concentration levels
8. Repeated incidents and you are dismissed.
9. Driver retention
10. Risk of imprisonment if you are responsible for injury or death to the public.

I think train drivers are actually overpaid for the job we do in comparison to what others do in the public sector such as nurses, Police and fire brigade but that is the joys of not having the railway nationalised.

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Surely those nine of those reasons apply just as much to bus and coach drivers? The strong union is questionable.

Antman said:

Surely those nine of those reasons apply just as much to bus and coach drivers? The strong union is questionable.

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3) Responsability :A bus or coach travels at a maximum speed of 62 mph with at most 100 passengers. A train can carry 1000 at double the speed.

4) Training : A 5 day crash course and a further 5 days CPC training could see you legally behind the wheel of a bus or coach in 2-3 weeks. The most basic train driver training course takes 9 months and in addition much more time needed learn additional routes.

5) Knowledge retention. Whilst a bus driver has to route learn it isn't a legal requirement and its not dangerous if a driver isn't route learned. In this way coach drivers can and do visit destinations they have never been to before using a sat-nav or a map. Train drivers must learn all their routes and pass exams on those routes both paper based and a practically assessed both day and night. They also must learn and pass exams relevant to their traction so they can identify / rectify faults and deal with emergencies if they arise. Whilst type training does exist for bus drivers, it isn't a legal requirement and any qualified pcv driver can drive any pcv without prior training on it. Any faults that arise mean pulling over to the side of the road and calling out the mechanic to attend. An emergency means evacuating to the side of the roads. Railways being much more dangerous than roads needs careful planning and procedures put in place to deal with either emergency or controlled evacuations.

6) risk of death. The railway is a more dangerous environment than the road. In addition operating at higher speeds than is legally allowed in the UK and the much longer braking distances (well beyond line of sight) for a train compared with a bus/coach means an large obstruction on the line is going to hurt!

7) Concentration levels : In a PSV you are driving on line of sight reacting to events happening around you. Train driving often involves driving to things you can't see using your route knowledge to help. Judging whether the correct amount of braking has been applied for a given situation requires a lot of practice to get right. Mistakes made caused by wrong routing or missed station stops cost lots of ££££ ... this doesnt occur if a bus misses a stop or takes a wrong turning (assuming the bus doesnt hit a low bridge in the process)

8) Having a major accident in a PSV will not necessarily end your career, it means that you'll have to settle working for a smaller lower paying 'cowboy, firm. Seriously screw up on the railway and you'll never drive a train again.

Just a few comparisons for thought.

Good post but I don't necessarily agree with point 3.

Doesn't matter if your responsible for 1 life or 100, the responsibility you have is the same.

notadriver said:

6) risk of death. The railway is a more dangerous environment than the road.

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Is it? There are, after all, a lot more fatal accidents on the road than on the railway (though there are also a lot more vehicles on the road than the railway). This is an honest question by the way I'm not arguing one way or the other.

ainsworth74 said:

Is it? There are, after all, a lot more fatal accidents on the road than on the railway (though there are also a lot more vehicles on the road than the railway). This is an honest question by the way I'm not arguing one way or the other.

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Which maybe, as I have said before, that demonstrates exactly what the vigorous assessment process and high pay does, extract the best from the best? Our very low *touch wood* accident rate must speak dividends for our staffs skills and expertise.

After all, pay peanuts you get monkeys!

I had this discussion with a friend the other other day, who works for the emergency services. He can go on a blue light run after 13+ hours on duty, yet I can't work more than 12. Difference is, the *worst* he could do was hit a coach and kill (unlikely?) 50 or so people. Potentially, we could have 2 trains collide and looking at (again unlikely) upwards of 1500 people killed or seriously hurt. Plus, higher closing speeds on the railway, with sometimes many passengers standing and luggage and bikes possibly being thrown around

GB said:

Good post but I don't necessarily agree with point 3.

Doesn't matter if your responsible for 1 life or 100, the responsibility you have is the same.

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I will disagree here only because I don't believe a minicab driver with 1 passenger has the same responsibility as a pcv driver carrying 100 and in the event of an accident the pcv driver will be the one that makes the headlines and cross examined.

notadriver said:

3) Responsability :A bus or coach travels at a maximum speed of 62 mph with at most 100 passengers. A train can carry 1000 at double the speed.

4) Training : A 5 day crash course and a further 5 days CPC training could see you legally behind the wheel of a bus or coach in 2-3 weeks. The most basic train driver training course takes 9 months and in addition much more time needed learn additional routes.

5) Knowledge retention. Whilst a bus driver has to route learn it isn't a legal requirement and its not dangerous if a driver isn't route learned. In this way coach drivers can and do visit destinations they have never been to before using a sat-nav or a map. Train drivers must learn all their routes and pass exams on those routes both paper based and a practically assessed both day and night. They also must learn and pass exams relevant to their traction so they can identify / rectify faults and deal with emergencies if they arise. Whilst type training does exist for bus drivers, it isn't a legal requirement and any qualified pcv driver can drive any pcv without prior training on it. Any faults that arise mean pulling over to the side of the road and calling out the mechanic to attend. An emergency means evacuating to the side of the roads. Railways being much more dangerous than roads needs careful planning and procedures put in place to deal with either emergency or controlled evacuations.

6) risk of death. The railway is a more dangerous environment than the road. In addition operating at higher speeds than is legally allowed in the UK and the much longer braking distances (well beyond line of sight) for a train compared with a bus/coach means an large obstruction on the line is going to hurt!

7) Concentration levels : In a PSV you are driving on line of sight reacting to events happening around you. Train driving often involves driving to things you can't see using your route knowledge to help. Judging whether the correct amount of braking has been applied for a given situation requires a lot of practice to get right. Mistakes made caused by wrong routing or missed station stops cost lots of ££££ ... this doesnt occur if a bus misses a stop or takes a wrong turning (assuming the bus doesnt hit a low bridge in the process)

8) Having a major accident in a PSV will not necessarily end your career, it means that you'll have to settle working for a smaller lower paying 'cowboy, firm. Seriously screw up on the railway and you'll never drive a train again.

Just a few comparisons for thought.

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And here's a few more

You can kill or injure a lot of people with either

A bus/coach driver has to know where he is going, in some cases he also has to remember fares and validity of various passes

There is a risk of death in either job and accidents on the roads are far more common than on the rails

Make a mistake driving a train and there are various systems that will in most cases prevent an accident, obviously there aren't on road vehicles

Driving a bus or coach means dealing directly with the public and all the problems and distractions that come with it

ainsworth74 said:

Is it? There are, after all, a lot more fatal accidents on the road than on the railway (though there are also a lot more vehicles on the road than the railway). This is an honest question by the way I'm not arguing one way or the other.

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Dangerous for people - no one is allowed access on or near the line without relevant training.

I see it's now turned into bus drivers verses train drivers.Ha ha

Antman said:

And here's a few more

You can kill or injure a lot of people with either

A bus/coach driver has to know where he is going, in some cases he also has to remember fares and validity of various passes


There is a risk of death in either job and accidents on the roads are far more common than on the rails

Make a mistake driving a train and there are various systems that will in most cases prevent an accident, obviously there aren't on road vehicles

Driving a bus or coach means dealing directly with the public and all the problems and distractions that come with it

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I would contest those points.

When I drive a coach I don't have to know where I'm going. Often I will have studied a map the night before and Google maps. If on the day I'm not sure it's good old follow the signs. It is not dangerous if you don't know where you are going.

Whilst there are many more accidents on the roads because a bus/coach is itself limited to 62 mph that in itself limits the consequences of an accident.

I take the point about distractions but this is no different than when driving a car. The nature of driving several hundred tons of metal at higher speeds than a car is legally allowed to travel at in the UK means absolutely no distractions can be permitted.

The safety systems are in place that is true but necessary given the much higher speeds and stopping distances of trains. Not all signals have tran stops. Degraded working means working without those systems. A serious derailment can put an entire stretch of railway out for several weeks. I bet it didnt take too long to clear up that 30 car pile up on the M4 a few days ago.

carriageline said:

Which maybe, as I have said before, that demonstrates exactly what the vigorous assessment process and high pay does, extract the best from the best? Our very low *touch wood* accident rate must speak dividends for our staffs skills and expertise.

After all, pay peanuts you get monkeys!

I had this discussion with a friend the other other day, who works for the emergency services. He can go on a blue light run after 13+ hours on duty, yet I can't work more than 12. Difference is, the *worst* he could do was hit a coach and kill (unlikely?) 50 or so people. Potentially, we could have 2 trains collide and looking at (again unlikely) upwards of 1500 people killed or seriously hurt. Plus, higher closing speeds on the railway, with sometimes many passengers standing and luggage and bikes possibly being thrown around

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No, he could run off the road before an overbridge, crash onto a railway line and cause a multi-train crash.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
One thing not mentioned is that, provided you are willing to move, there is a career progression for drivers. The TOCs that train new driver tend to run harder diagrams to work, i.e. a stopper requires more 'work' than an express, but pay them less.
So, you train with Northern, drive a crappy pacer for a bit stopping at 50 stations a day, then move to Virgin, get paid more (because they can afford to pay more because they don't have to pay for training, in a better cab environment, with 10 stops a day.
This is one of the reasons that pay has gone up for drivers over other rail staff, the shortness of supply of qualified drivers for TOCs that aren't willing to train versus the retention rises for the drivers of TOCs that do train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Here's a something to to think about.
In BR days, drivers were paid far less. Has the job got proportionally harder compared to, for example, that of station staff who haven't seen the same rate of pay increase?
For example, the average driver now has to retain far less traction knowledge than in the past.
I would argue that the reason that the reason drivers get paid as much as they do now is almost entirely due to a combination of privatisation and a long expensive training time.
As to whether they weren't paid enough before, or they are paid too much now, or somewhere in between, I don't really know

ainsworth74 said:

Is it? There are, after all, a lot more fatal accidents on the road than on the railway (though there are also a lot more vehicles on the road than the railway). This is an honest question by the way I'm not arguing one way or the other.

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If you do a percentage of journeys to deaths you would possibly find there isn't a lot in it, for instance one train may pass in 15 minutes and how many road vehicles would pass say on the M6. How many people survive a collision with a car in comparison to a train? When you look at the traffic on the road there are millions of journeys so lots of fatal accidents you cannot really compare the 2.

As for bus drivers, well there just is no comparison to be fair, I could jump in a bus and drive it, stop it and probably do it safely without training however I doubt you could do this with a train. If there are any bus drivers out there and are bitter because of the amount of money a train driver gets what are you still doing driving busses?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

GB said:

Good post but I don't necessarily agree with point 3.

Doesn't matter if your responsible for 1 life or 100, the responsibility you have is the same.

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I disagree with that, the more lives within your responsibility means there is a higher percentage of risk for killing them

notadriver said:

I will disagree here only because I don't believe a minicab driver with 1 passenger has the same responsibility as a pcv driver carrying 100 and in the event of an accident the pcv driver will be the one that makes the headlines and cross examined.

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Bigger carnage always makes bigger headlines but if death or seriously injury were involved then in both cases if either driver was found at fault they would both end up in the dock.

talltim said:

No, he could run off the road before an overbridge, crash onto a railway line and cause a multi-train crash.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
One thing not mentioned is that, provided you are willing to move, there is a career progression for drivers. The TOCs that train new driver tend to run harder diagrams to work, i.e. a stopper requires more 'work' than an express, but pay them less.
So, you train with Northern, drive a crappy pacer for a bit stopping at 50 stations a day, then move to Virgin, get paid more (because they can afford to pay more because they don't have to pay for training, in a better cab environment, with 10 stops a day.
This is one of the reasons that pay has gone up for drivers over other rail staff, the shortness of supply of qualified drivers for TOCs that aren't willing to train versus the retention rises for the drivers of TOCs that do train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Here's a something to to think about.
In BR days, drivers were paid far less. Has the job got proportionally harder compared to, for example, that of station staff who haven't seen the same rate of pay increase?
For example, the average driver now has to retain far less traction knowledge than in the past.
I would argue that the reason that the reason drivers get paid as much as they do now is almost entirely due to a combination of privatisation and a long expensive training time.
As to whether they weren't paid enough before, or they are paid too much now, or somewhere in between, I don't really know

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In BR days you had a second man as well. These days train drivers are far more productive than they were in BR days.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

GB said:

Bigger carnage always makes bigger headlines but if death or seriously injury were involved then in both cases if either driver was found at fault they would both end up in the dock.

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Agreed. But the taxi driver will be the only one accountable. In the case of a coach it will be the companys insurance forking out money for injury claims for multiple people. The company itself might be taken to court. The whole scope is widened.