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Busways 'would cut rail fares by 40%' says right-wing think-tank

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muddythefish

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Press Association said:
Converting some rail routes into busways on which express coaches would run could chop 40% off commuter fares, according to a report from a think-tank.

Allowing busways on some commuter routes into London could also mean more passengers getting a seat at peak times, the report from the Institute of Economic Affairs (IEA) said.

The IEA also said travel times would be the same, if not shorter through the creation of a busway system.

The report reckoned that converting commuter railways into busways would bring about cheaper fares for passengers, as operating and infrastructure costs would be much lower.

The IEA argued that although the initial cost of conversion would be substantial, adding new rail capacity and continuing rail subsidies would be far more expensive.

Entitled Paving over the tracks: A better use of Britain's railways?, the report envisaged 150 express coaches each seating 75 people operating on commuter rail routes in the morning rush hour.

The report's authors said current government spending on the rail network "costs the taxpayer £6 billion a year and benefits rail companies at the expense of passengers, who often receive poor value for money".

The report added: "Heavy subsidies, rigid state control and powerful interest groups have distorted the industry, resulting in alternative modes of transport being ignored despite their often huge potential for improved capacity and cost reduction."

The authors said Bus Rapid Transit schemes in Latin America and Asia had been successful.

In the UK, there is already a 16-mile Cambridgeshire Guided Busway which uses old rail routes to link Cambridge, Huntingdon and St Ives.

The report's author and the IEA's head of transport, Dr Richard Wellings, said: "Ongoing interference by politicians in the rail industry has led to everyone getting a raw deal.

"Passengers face increasingly expensive fares only to fight their way on to trains during peak times and taxpayers continue to prop up an industry whose importance to the country is disproportionally small relative to the level of resources it receives."

He went on: "Adopting more efficient methods of transport could offer considerable benefits to passengers and the taxpayer alike.
"But only when the sector is liberalised from rigid state control will we see such alternatives being seriously considered."

A spokesman for the Rail Delivery Group, which represents train operators and Network Rail (NR), said: "The railway brings 2.5 million people a day into Britain's biggest cities and towns and rail freight helps to keep the lights on and fill supermarket shelves.

"The Government's sustained investment in rail is a recognition of the crucial role it plays in underpinning jobs and driving economic growth."

He went on: "Phenomenal growth in passenger numbers means that operators and NR now generate some £9 billion of income which covers the day-to-day running of the railway.

"The £4 billion that government invests through NR supports its capital programme to improve rail infrastructure, creating more capacity and helping to deliver faster, more reliable journeys."

Wellings is a neo-con libertarian. In other words, a right wing nutcase who believes the free market solves everything. See the link below for the list of anti-railway
diatribes.
https://richardwellings.wordpress.com/about/
 
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swt_passenger

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Was this a descendant of Serpell who dreamt this rubbish up ?

"The report's author and the IEA's head of transport, Dr Richard Wellings..."

IIRC he's been flogging the same dead horse for years, and his proposals just don't stack up in the real analysis. I'm sure he's been officially shot down before now.

His proposed 150 x 75 seat coaches has about the same capacity as eight high capacity 12 x 20m trains. London Bridge alone is planned to take about 86 trains per hour, say 10 times as many passengers.
 
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HSTEd

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Could always have double deck articulated trolleybuses.
For ultimate crazy.
 

Aictos

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"The report's author and the IEA's head of transport, Dr Richard Wellings..."

IIRC he's been flogging the same dead horse for years, and his proposals just don't stack up in the real analysis. I'm sure he's been officially shot down before now.

His proposed 150 x 75 seat coaches has about the same capacity as about eight 12 x 20m trains. London Bridge alone is planned to take about 86 trains per hour, say 10 times as many passengers.

I don't know what he or this think tank smokes but surely a better use of money would be to close it and use the money saved from these harebrained schemes to actually be productive rather then counter productive.

To say he's a idiot is a understatement :lol:
 

simple simon

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So who will tell Chiltern Railways that the bus lobby still want Marylebone station?

-------------------------------

I recall Serpell in the 1980's... his pro-bus / anti rail ideas are believed to have been formulated after the 1954 railway strike when after a fortnight British industry was said to be in deep trouble because goods were not being sent anywhere... so the govt. and civil servants resolved to create a decentralised road transport industry to compete with (and eventually replace) the trains.



Simon
 

NSEFAN

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Yet more fantastic ideas from the IEA. Aren't they also the people who spread the FUD about HS2 costing £80bn, by including Crossrail in their cost estimation. :roll:
 

Hadders

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Oh dear. What a ridiculous idea.
 

SS4

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could chop 40% off commuter fares

Emphasis on could. Anyone with half a brain knows it won't and will instead line the pockets of shareholders/government
 

NSEFAN

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To be fair, I agree with this line:
Richard Wellings said:
Ongoing interference by politicians in the rail industry has led to everyone getting a raw deal.
But the solution they then propose is completely insane. "Railways aren't being well run, so let's get rid of railways to save money!"

Yes, the industry is expensive, but that's entirely down to politics. The industry is badly fragmented and needs sorting out if we wish to actually reduce costs. Get rid of the real parasites in the industry: the lawyers that hold all the fragments together. The technology itself however is vastly superior for fast mass transit compared to tyres on tarmac, until someone can invent room-temperature superconductors for maglev.
 

yorksrob

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To be fair, I agree with this line:

But the solution they then propose is completely insane. "Railways aren't being well run, so let's get rid of railways to save money!"

Yes, the industry is expensive, but that's entirely down to politics. The industry is badly fragmented and needs sorting out if we wish to actually reduce costs. Get rid of the real parasites in the industry: the lawyers that hold all the fragments together. The technology itself however is vastly superior for fast mass transit compared to tyres on tarmac, until someone can invent room-temperature superconductors for maglev.

Indeed. Typical infrastructure solution for a managerial "problem" if it be a problem at all. Certainly, the commuter routes into London seem to get a reasonable amount of investment for their expense, so perhaps we need to accept the capital investment for what it is.

It amazes me, we're forever being told how much subsidy is evil, yet capital investment is essential for growth, yet as a country, we insist on laundering all of our capital investment in the railway into inflated revenue subsidies !

I doubt very much whether converting London commuter routes into bus routes will lead to the increases in speed and capacity suggested by Wellings (yet again). Perhaps these alleged benefits for London commuters are just a smoke screen for another attack against the regional railway !

I have a close personal friend who believes in converting railways into bus routes. Needless to say, we have some lively conversations :lol:
 

Phil6219

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What a load of tosh!

Liverpool has axed it's bus lanes as they are a hindrance and the Cambridge busway is a rather controversial one as it has been plagued with problems from the get go. The one in Crawley never got finished as the council came to it's senses and doesn't really go anywhere.

As for the one in Manchester, don't get me started on it. I've been against it from day one, they took up a perfectly good old rail line (albiet with no track and one or two small bridges removed) and are causing mayhem both along the old trackbed and on the East Lancashire Road where they are taking a lane off one of the main arteries into Manchester - much less the fact they are not putting a bus lane in for the services heading away from Manchester and continue to avoid answering how can they provide a reliable service to Manchester when the Leigh bound services will be stuck in traffic.

Think Tanks are essentially just a group of tossers with nothing better to do than come up with stupid ideas and get paid a good wad for the privilege. The whole lot of them should be put on a ship and set sail...

Phil 8-)
 

Deerfold

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What a load of tosh!

Liverpool has axed its bus lanes as they are a hindrance and the Cambridge busway is a rather controversial one as it has been plagued with problems from the get go. The one in Crawley never got finished as the council came to its senses and doesn't really go anywhere.

There's quite a few people think Liverpool are barking up the wrong tree with removing bus lanes.

The busway in Cambridge is working very well (though had problems during construction) - passenger numbers and bus frequencies have increased enormously.

However it's nothing like a main railway line into London.

You don't have to be against any project that impoves bus travel to be pro-rail.
 

Bletchleyite

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What is better - a busway or a tram line ?

Depends on the context. A busway is useful where it isn't for whatever reason feasible to run a dedicated line throughout - perhaps if you want to send a bus out from the city to run around 3-4 nearby villages, perhaps - a bit like the Cambs one does at the outer end.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The busway in Cambridge is working very well (though had problems during construction) - passenger numbers and bus frequencies have increased enormously.

However it's nothing like a main railway line into London.

Indeed not, though had it been built as a railway as some wanted I'd expect it would likely have been a simple 2-track DMU operation with one train per hour in each direction. The bus service it has got is rather better than that, and has increased quite rapidly with demand (as buses, and bus drivers, are easier to get and cheaper than trains and train drivers).

It remains to be seen how well the infrastructure will last, but I think it seems a success for now at least. And it still has a lovely branch line feel to it.

Of course as you correctly say to be in favour of it isn't to be against rail - it connects with rail, so no doubt encourages train journeys as well.

Neil
 
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Busaholic

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There is nothing new in any of this. The biggest propagandist over the years for converting railway lines into London to coachways was Professor Peter Hall of Reading University and he was later joined by Sir Alfred Sherman, an advisor to Margaret Thatcher and considered by many to be the most far-right person to influence a Prime Minister ever. She put him on the board of the National Bus Company to oversee its break up into disastrous small, but privatised , pieces and he promptly repaid her trust by advocating the paving over of as many railway lines as possible. I don't know how much of this can be found on the internet, but it might be worth the effort for anyone after the antecedents for these lunatic 'ideas'.
 

Jonny

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What is better - a busway or a tram line ?

Tramline - steel wheel on steel rail. Well, on any current/former rail alignment anyway. Proper trains are better though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Back at the original point the phrase cheap and nasty springs to mind...
 
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JamesRowden

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I wonder if building new railways in the place of the motorways/dual carriageways through London would be a cheap solution to some of London's commuter capacity issues. :D Alternatively they could be made buses only during the peak.
 

notadriver

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Is a traditional road and electronic steering guidance a viable alternative to a full bus way?
 

edwin_m

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There is nothing new in any of this. The biggest propagandist over the years for converting railway lines into London to coachways was Professor Peter Hall of Reading University and he was later joined by Sir Alfred Sherman, an advisor to Margaret Thatcher and considered by many to be the most far-right person to influence a Prime Minister ever. She put him on the board of the National Bus Company to oversee its break up into disastrous small, but privatised , pieces and he promptly repaid her trust by advocating the paving over of as many railway lines as possible. I don't know how much of this can be found on the internet, but it might be worth the effort for anyone after the antecedents for these lunatic 'ideas'.

It should be said that Peter Hall recanted and was fairly thoroughly pro-rail in his final years (he died last summer).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Is a traditional road and electronic steering guidance a viable alternative to a full bus way?

The system used in the Channel Tunnel service tunnel, where vehicles are steered to follow buried wires, was being touted around 15 or so years ago and the bus-only road serving the Dome was actually fitted with this equipment. However it's probably more expensive, there is more to go wrong and the flat surface doesn't prevent use by other vehicles like a guided busway does. There is/was also the Frog/Phileas system where the vehicle follows a trail of buried magnets, but I don't think this has progressed beyond a couple of small-scale applications.
 
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Bletchleyite

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There's quite a few people think Liverpool are barking up the wrong tree with removing bus lanes.

Blanket bus lanes are indeed a bit of a waste of space. Better are targetted overtakes, undertaking right turns with traffic lights etc - used well on the Continent.

What Liverpool did was to temporarily remove all of them so an experiment could be done into how effective they were, and it was (supposedly) found that most of them weren't really effective. Though there will have been some political bias on the decision I expect.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Is a traditional road and electronic steering guidance a viable alternative to a full bus way?

The difficulty with electronic steering is what if it fails? I imagine it's also more expensive when you're building from scratch.

A busway can indeed viably be a traditional road, though. Some short sections of the Cambridge and Luton ones are, as is the entirety of the Eclipse one in Gosport. The downsides of building a traditional road are that for manual steering it needs to be wider than a guideway if you aren't to have the buses slow to a crawl each time they pass each other, and that other vehicles can sneak onto it (though they try this with the guideways and fall between the "rails" or into the "car trap", and removing them causes a lot of disruption). The advantage is that it's far simpler and any bus can run on it.

The first UK busway, the Runcorn system, is also an unguided traditional road, just not open to any traffic other than buses (except one section which was opened - and there's another advantage of unguided - you can convert to a public road if you need to, either temporarily or permanently), and enforced the traditional way.

Neil
 
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Tommy1581

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Weren't busways only supposed to be for bypassing busy roads and making bus journeys quicker?

A bus can't go at 125mph from Edinburgh to London.

I find these articles are absolute rubbish!
 

A0wen

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Weren't busways only supposed to be for bypassing busy roads and making bus journeys quicker?

A bus can't go at 125mph from Edinburgh to London.

I find these articles are absolute rubbish!

Now go back and read the article again - it says nothing about long-distance Inter City routes.

What it has looked at is the south-east commuter routes.

"Commuter railways in the Home Counties transport a quarter of a million passengers into London during the morning peak hour, many of whom have to stand during their journey."

"“For shorter journeys especially, express coaches would deliver travel speeds similar to that of trains as well as operating more frequently.”"

The point being made has some substance - trains are not massively 'space' efficient either from a passenger seating point of view or in terms of the infrastructure because of the signalling headways - which are far lower for road vehicles.

It's not dissimilar to the effect of trams where they've replaced trams - it's possible to increase frequencies and therefore number of seats because the way they operate is different.
 

Tommy1581

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Well can't these coaches use existing bus lanes or they build more bus lanes on the roads? Now, I know this article is absolute rubbish, there's more chance of the London Underground being replaced by an underground busway.
 
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