I've heard this for years, never had the chance to go to Leeds but I'd love to just to sit on this table.
They could kiss my arse if they didn't like it as well. Really annoys me
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Drivers pay increases
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I've heard this for years, never had the chance to go to Leeds but I'd love to just to sit on this table.
They could kiss my arse if they didn't like it as well. Really annoys me
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I wonder how the new requirements for Train Drivers, like a relevant degree or Forces involvement will affect this.
I heard it will be required even if moving from one TOC to another.
That is interesting. I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering and work closely with the forces (although not actually in them) and have been knocked back by Northern to be a driver. My self loathing has increased ten fold!
Minilad
Established Member
Why on earth is either of those a requirement. Utter nonsense IMO.
And surely experience in the job and a good safety record is far more desirable than a piece of paper or a service record. But then again many TOCs prefer piece of paper wielding know nothings to guys with experience these days. I suppose they are more susceptible to the brain washing
Well I reckon, and this is nothing against train drivers who require a very specific set of skills, that requiring a degree to do the job turns degrees more and more in to a pass mark to get a job and less as a source of learning. Would the fact I have a degree in a related subject and have worked with the forces suddenly mean I am suitable to be a train driver? It is a crazy idea.
theironroad
Established Member
Where are these new requirements laid out in black and white and by whom. Are they a group standard, hence industry wide or is it 1 specific toc/foc?
Where did you hear that it applies to existing drivers?
It sounds like a stupid idea really. I do have a degree, but most of my driving colleagues don't and there are damn fine drivers old and new among them.
Personally, unless I see concrete evidence of this idea, I'd file it under another quality railway mess room rumour that someone has made up.
Requirement... no way. So at a time when TOC's are pulling out all the stops to recruit more female drivers they will be required to recruit from people with forces experience (where women are still in a significant minority). Utter nonsense I'm afraid. Also requiring a relevant degree to even move TOC's won't happen either. Restriction of trade and any such move would be legally contested.
Jamesb1974
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I agree entirely.
Without wanting to kick off an argument about the relevance of degrees, has it not been the case that they (degrees) have been dumbed down for quite some time now?
I mean, this is an example from 2011 and they were saying it then. I can't imagine for one second why a degree would be either relevant or appropriate to become a driver. And yes, I do know it comes from the font of all bollox, the Daily Mail but it was the first one I found..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2026858/Bosses-condemn-useless-degrees-leave-graduates-lacking-basic-skills.html
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Yes they have been. However that is not new. I had a question in coursework in my second year of an engineering degree that was an example in my dads HNC textbook from the 1950s (with full working out lol).
If true, requiring train drivers to have a degree is madness. You need someone with a calm temperment who is not prone to going off into his own world and daydreaming.
If it does go that way then the same will happen as with Nurses. Now nurses do most of the work a doctor used to and Nursing Assistants, who come off the street with a few weeks training, do the work that nurses used to.
So expect the Drivers equivalent of a PCSO on £15k a year replacing drivers for shunting duties and slow speed branch lines in a few years......
Jamesb1974
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They already exist! Driver Operators (DB Schenker; work in Yards, short trip journeys plus groundstaff work) MDD (Maintenance depot driver; Northern and probably a few others) and I'm sure either GBRf or Colas were looking at a similar role to drive within engineering possessions.
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TB93
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Not on 15k a year,driver operators are paid more than that
Jamesb1974
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Yes, I was referring to the role rather than the pay but editing the quote seemed like going a bit too far...:roll:
MichaelAMW
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Regarding degrees and all that, in this thread:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=106655&page=8
I passed on this information, that perhaps shows degrees are not completely irrelevant.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=106655&page=8
I passed on this information, that perhaps shows degrees are not completely irrelevant.
Jamesb1974
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Hmm. Reads like one cancels out the other to me. No point having degrees coming out of every orifice if you can't turn up on time (or at all)..
dk1
Veteran Member
I never took a single exam at school as Didnt want too but been on the railway since 84, kept my nose relatively clean & somehow ended up on a drivers course in 98. Never really had any ambition it just seemed to fall into my lap by being in the right place at the right time. Can't honestly say I enjoy it anymore but the money is half decent so will try to see myself through to early retirement. Some of the tests, rubbish & hoops that need to be achieved these days seem to bypass common sense. My opinions entirely of course.
MichaelAMW
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Hmm. Reads like one cancels out the other to me. No point having degrees coming out of every orifice if you can't turn up on time (or at all)..
Well, that remark somewhat reflects the bias of your view, which you have expressed in earlier posts, that degrees are not important. You have failed to consider the corollary: there's not much point turning up on time if your train handling and safety performance could be better. In any case, two things that cancel each other out need to have some sense of being opposite to each other, which isn't the case here, because it is entirely possible either to have both or to have neither.
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carriageline
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Jamesb1974
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Is it possible to ascertain bias from a single post? Did I actually say that degrees are not important? No, what I actually said was this;
I agreed with the poster of the original comment about needing a degree to drive a train, as I don't believe you DO need a degree to drive a train. However, do you need a degree to be a Doctor, Surgeon, Teacher, Engineer? Yes you do.
Now, if you want to talk about degrees in general then yes, they are important but only with relevance to the appropriate career choice post degree. Are they being dumbed down? Yes they are, but that isn't to say they are not important.
You clearly missed the bit at the start where I stated
Please feel free to misinterpret my future replies at your leisure.
Robertj21a
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Couldn't agree more. In many industries a good level of common sense is preferable to any number of paper qualifications.
Sadly that is only true of the past. Nowadays most companies/industries are ruled by their HR departments who introduce all sorts of hoops for those very able to still jump through.
LBSCR Times
Member
Yes, we had a round of reorganisation. HR only wanted those who'd got degrees.....
They were over-ruled, this time!
The only one who had got a degree was the one who didn't get the job.
Experience counted more than qualifications.
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MichaelAMW
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Please don't be sarcastic. I was referring to the words I have quoted from you in bold, above. To me, that was a clear statement of your bias - that's not intended to be dismissive of your opinion, just to make the point that your view is at one end of the spectrum. As you say, with which I agree, it is not necessary for a driver to have a degree. However, as I pointed out from the research, having a degree can convey some advantage.
oh i was wondering how long it would be before the old degree card would be played!
having been on the railway some time now and having had numerous conversations with passenger's who have told me they will be my boss one day because they hold this degree or that degree it just continues to make me laugh!
you can hold all the qualifications under the sun but it does not mean you are capable of driving a train or being a guard/conductor!.......paper qualifications (especially to that level) will always run a distant second place to that of common sense,communication skills and people skills!
this is proven by the fact that i left school with no A levels coming out of my ears and i am certainly not educated to degree level but it did not stop me gaining a driving job ahead of fully trained pilots and trained teachers where degrees are commonplace
now don't get me wrong i am not saying people educated to those higher standards do not possess common sense etc i am just saying that this is the sort of role/industry were the priority when recruiting should be finding the person with the right attributes to do the job on a day to day basis!.....not the person with the right letters after his/her name!
having been on the railway some time now and having had numerous conversations with passenger's who have told me they will be my boss one day because they hold this degree or that degree it just continues to make me laugh!
you can hold all the qualifications under the sun but it does not mean you are capable of driving a train or being a guard/conductor!.......paper qualifications (especially to that level) will always run a distant second place to that of common sense,communication skills and people skills!
this is proven by the fact that i left school with no A levels coming out of my ears and i am certainly not educated to degree level but it did not stop me gaining a driving job ahead of fully trained pilots and trained teachers where degrees are commonplace
now don't get me wrong i am not saying people educated to those higher standards do not possess common sense etc i am just saying that this is the sort of role/industry were the priority when recruiting should be finding the person with the right attributes to do the job on a day to day basis!.....not the person with the right letters after his/her name!
Jamesb1974
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No, that is my opinion. It remains my opinion that I cannot imagine for one second why a degree would be relevant or appropriate to carry out the role of train driver. A matter on which we apparently agree.
Had I said "Degree holders should have their applications for driving posts rejected and all non degree holders should jump ahead of them in the queue", then I would be showing bias.
If you are going to pull me up for sarcasm, then I'm afraid I must retaliate with definitions.
Opinion.
noun
1.
a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
"that, in my opinion, is right"
Bias
noun
1.
inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair.
"there was evidence of bias against black applicants"
MichaelAMW
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Indeed, I see that this is your opinion and my remark about bias (your definition snipped) was only to say you lean one way rather than another. In other words, I respect your opinion. However, it's irrelevant whether we agree or not as I haven't given my opinion - haven't come to a conclusion, in fact. All I originally said was that there was some RSSB research in 2006 that says:
"the validation study has indicated that academic achievements are an important predictor of train driver performance and trainability, with some reservations. Better qualified recruits tend to perform better on average in most aspects of train handling and safety performance but seem to be less dependable as employees because they have poorer time-keeping and absenteeism records."
Assuming that a degree counts as being "better qualified" then this is a bit of research that gives an indication of where a degree might be appropriate or relevant. It would be interesting to know why or how they do better. of course. It's not necessarily the case that having a degree, of itself, makes any difference. It could be, for example, that graduates do worse in the selection process and that only the most suitable ones actually get through to the training.
There is no solid evidence on this subject (highlighted in red) just the ideas of an RSSB manager who most likely has a degree. In my experience people who have degrees know a lot about just one subject and not a little about a lot of subjects. Anyone with a degree will in fact most likely be more comfortable with the classroom based training but when it comes to the practical aspects such as train handling, traction, scenarios, road learning in my experience of training both people with degrees and people without I have found that the people without the degrees do a lot better and do end up as better drivers. "It would be interesting to know why or how they do better"
Completely agree . I did quite well in my A levels and went to university and got a degree and am now a Guard .
I think my degree helped me cope with the classroom aspect of the guards course and the learning of routes and stuff just because I knew my own way of learning and was quite familiar with reading and taking information on board as id only graduated about 18 months prior to going on the course . Some of the older guys on my course who had been in work for 10-20-30 years before going on the course where not as used to learning but they still got through it .
However once we had all passed out my degree doesn't make me any better at the job than any of the other guards in my and other depots who dont have degrees .
Just like there are former coppers , teachers , nurses and military men at my depot . Doesn't make them any better than anyone else they've just learned the relevant skills and experience for the job in a different setting .
People shouldnt be recruited just because they have X qualification or did X job , they should be recruited based off the skills and experience they can demonstrate and how they perform at interview .
Its a left side/right side thing.
Some people are technically minded and others practically minded. Just as some are highly creative and some are calculatingly logical.
I know a few successful people and none were academic whatsoever and conversely I have a friend with a Masters in physics but I wouldn't trust him to drive me to tesco and back let alone drive a train.
You will need some degree of academic ability to sit through the rather arduous rules course and yes train-ability does come into play but the practical side and the non technical skills required for the day to day driving of the train can be limiting for some.
Minilad
Established Member
The last time I went for my simulator based assessment I was there with one of the few guys at our depot with a degree. I had completed the assessment and waiting for him to finish when the assessor came and told me I might as well get going and not wait for him as he would be awhile yet. He said that unlike me who just stuck to the required information and solutions the other guy waffled and, in his words, wouldn't use one word when twenty will do. Now I am not for one minute suggesting this is something all degree holders have in common. Or even that it's particularly a bad thing. Just throwing it out there!!
HarleyDavidson
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We have several "brainy" types including one who studied law, a former pilot and so on and they are extremely bright in their own fields. However when it comes to the techy stuff on a train, they seem to be at a loss.
Where as I who only have ****y CSEs and no high level qualifications can work on a train, know its systems top to bottom and have no issues, but that's because I have double digit years of experience on me.
As I see it most newbies don't have any interest in the job whatsoever, they're only in it for the money & pension.
Where as I who only have ****y CSEs and no high level qualifications can work on a train, know its systems top to bottom and have no issues, but that's because I have double digit years of experience on me.
As I see it most newbies don't have any interest in the job whatsoever, they're only in it for the money & pension.
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