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Driverless Trains

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Bletchleyite

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So where does GOO save any money?!

It provides improved passenger comfort and safety by having that "guard with driver training" spending most of their time in the passenger accommodation being useful, not sitting up front effectively supervising a computer system (which is the way it's going).

(Yes there are guards who spend their entire time in the back cab, but that's another debate)

You keep the guard on the train...instead of the driver, essentially.

You spend an absolute fortune building and then maintaining a driverless system including major infrastructure changes

When you're building HS2 from scratch...you know, it wouldn't surprise me if that looked at it.

Neil
 
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A-driver

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It provides improved passenger comfort and safety by having that "guard with driver training" spending most of their time in the passenger accommodation being useful, not sitting up front effectively supervising a computer system (which is the way it's going).

(Yes there are guards who spend their entire time in the back cab, but that's another debate)

You keep the guard on the train...instead of the driver, essentially.



When you're building HS2 from scratch...you know, it wouldn't surprise me if that looked at it.

Neil


So you are suggesting spending an awful lot of money altering the railways to allow a member of staff to sit with the passengers instead of in the can? Hardly a reason to spend such a huge amount (which the railway dosnt have in the first place...) is it?!

It would be very surprising if HS2 considered driverless...no high speed railway in the world has considered it. If nothing else the idea of removing a human being from the front would put a lot of passengers off boarding a high speed metal tin. Same as people would be reluctant to board a plane with no one at the front keeping an eye on things...
 

Bletchleyite

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It would be very surprising if HS2 considered driverless...no high speed railway in the world has considered it. If nothing else the idea of removing a human being from the front would put a lot of passengers off boarding a high speed metal tin. Same as people would be reluctant to board a plane with no one at the front keeping an eye on things...

But a plane is *not* the same. A train has one huge benefit - if everything goes wrong, the best thing to do is to stop.

Neil
 

A-driver

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But a plane is *not* the same. A train has one huge benefit - if everything goes wrong, the best thing to do is to stop.



Neil


Makes no difference, still think a lot of people would be uneasy on a high speed train with no one at the front in control. And what if something unaccounted for happens which dosnt cause the train to stop?

And how often is it likely to bring everything to a stop creating a highly unreliable railway? How does it determine weather it hit a bird so can carry on or if it was kids lobbing rocks off a bridge which requires immediate action for the safety of other trains? How does it know if there are trespassers on the line risking their lives or p-way safely walking down a section of track ahead...?

Things like tht are far easier for someone at the front to do on high speed rail.

And there is still away to go with automation-things like poor adhesion are still issues on ATO lines.

Plus what reason is there to actually go driverless? It's not cost effective, has very little advantage over things like supervised ATO or ERTMS on things like capacity, punctuality, energy consumption etc, will still need full staffing so not even a chance to get 'one over' on unions...

Seems a pointless waste of money, probably the reason no country in the world has seriously considered driverless heavy rail...
 

Dave1987

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It provides improved passenger comfort and safety by having that "guard with driver training" spending most of their time in the passenger accommodation being useful, not sitting up front effectively supervising a computer system (which is the way it's going).

(Yes there are guards who spend their entire time in the back cab, but that's another debate)

You keep the guard on the train...instead of the driver, essentially.



When you're building HS2 from scratch...you know, it wouldn't surprise me if that looked at it.

Neil

Sorry but I think you are very much over simplifying the role of driving trains. Yes many trains have on board computer systems but none of them have overall control of the train itself except on the DLR. It would require a vast array of kit to be installed to tell the computer where to stop at each station depending on what length the train is, not even touching the realms of emergency speed restrictions, low rail adhesion, level crossing operations etc etc. ATP is probably the only thing we lack but again the cost of installing that is huge when TPWS is just as affective and far far cheaper. Considering most passengers now sit with their headphones in with their eyes staring at their smartphone or tablet I really don't see any reason why passengers would benefit from the driver being with the passengers.
 

Bletchleyite

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Makes no difference, still think a lot of people would be uneasy on a high speed train with no one at the front in control.

I'm sure some people are uneasy on the DLR. But that doesn't mean that such decisions should be made on the basis of emotion - they should be made rationally.

And what if something unaccounted for happens which dosnt cause the train to stop?

Most likely it will. And it might be that while there are cases where it won't, there will also be cases where human error means it won't. So the automated system may be safer overall.

And how often is it likely to bring everything to a stop creating a highly unreliable railway?

How often does that happen on the DLR?

Things like tht are far easier for someone at the front to do on high speed rail.

Someone at the front cannot do anything about anything on HSR, things move too quickly. They can report irregularities, I suppose, but so could something like greater CCTV coverage.

And there is still away to go with automation-things like poor adhesion are still issues on ATO lines.

Wheelslip is vastly better dealt with via a computer than manual control. A computer can, for instance, control individual wheels with split-second timing. That's why ABS and traction control are hugely successful on the roads.

Plus what reason is there to actually go driverless? It's not cost effective

Evidence? The DLR is counter-evidence.

Seems a pointless waste of money, probably the reason no country in the world has seriously considered driverless heavy rail...

Evidence? Nobody has yet adopted it for heavy rail, but I would bet serious money that eventually somebody will.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It would require a vast array of kit to be installed to tell the computer where to stop at each station depending on what length the train is

That is not difficult.

not even touching the realms of emergency speed restrictions

Program them into the system.

low rail adhesion

A computer can handle this *vastly* better than any human.

level crossing operations

No different to now - the driver checks for a clear signal and proceeds. So the computer does that instead. If something is blocking the crossing, most likely it's getting hit. Trains don't stop like cars.

ATP is probably the only thing we lack but again the cost of installing that is huge when TPWS is just as affective and far far cheaper.

HS2 will have ERTMS without question. TPS won't even be fitted.

Considering most passengers now sit with their headphones in with their eyes staring at their smartphone or tablet I really don't see any reason why passengers would benefit from the driver being with the passengers.

Checking tickets, answering questions, controlling the doors etc?

Neil
 

A-driver

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I'm sure some people are uneasy on the DLR. But that doesn't mean that such decisions should be made on the basis of emotion - they should be made rationally.







Most likely it will. And it might be that while there are cases where it won't, there will also be cases where human error means it won't. So the automated system may be safer overall.







How often does that happen on the DLR?







Someone at the front cannot do anything about anything on HSR, things move too quickly. They can report irregularities, I suppose, but so could something like greater CCTV coverage.







Wheelslip is vastly better dealt with via a computer than manual control. A computer can, for instance, control individual wheels with split-second timing. That's why ABS and traction control are hugely successful on the roads.







Evidence? The DLR is counter-evidence.







Evidence? Nobody has yet adopted it for heavy rail, but I would bet serious money that eventually somebody will.



Neil


I'm not sure you fully understand what you are arguing.

You can not begin to compare the DLR or any metro system with high speed or heavy rail.

DLR won't need to deal with bird strikes and such as its low speed in the middle of a city. A 125mph train needs to know if it hit a bird or if someone threw something at it. And it needs to know that without having to stop and check.

As for adhesion, ATO currently struggles with wheel slide, a driver aided by WSP is far better than full ATO.

Overall an automated system won't be safer. Overall a hybrid driver with technological and automated aids will always be safer. How many high speed crashes are acceptable whilst they try to cater for things not previously considered?

It's difficult responding to your points when you seem not to appreciate the difference between the dlr and mainline and don't fully understand what a train driver does!
 
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Dave1987

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No different to now - the driver checks for a clear signal and proceeds. So the computer does that instead. If something is blocking the crossing, most likely it's getting hit. Trains don't stop like cars.

Sorry but it is not that simple at all. Not all level crossing are controlled by stop signals.
 

Bletchleyite

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Sorry but it is not that simple at all. Not all level crossing are controlled by stop signals.

All the ones on ATO lines would need to be!

It might not be financially viable in most cases, it might be in others. It is certainly 100% technically viable now. And technology always gets cheaper.

Neil
 

A-driver

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All the ones on ATO lines would need to be!

It might not be financially viable in most cases, it might be in others. It is certainly 100% technically viable now. And technology always gets cheaper.

Neil


It's of course do able to make trains drive themselves, no one can or is denying that.

But move into the real world and put it into practice and it's not as easy as you make out.

You still havnt answers my point regarding the very simple and common occurrence of bird strikes-how will an automated train know what it has just hit? And fast enough to prevent other trains running into possible danger? If I stopped to investigate after every high speed bird strike I would never get anywhere but as I can see that it's a bird, not an object, person etc I can keep the train moving.

Something like that is a real practice concern which technology can't overcome without constant human monitoring.

And it's irrelevant on the dlr as more unique to higher speed rail.
 

Bletchleyite

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You still havnt answers my point regarding the very simple and common occurrence of bird strikes-how will an automated train know what it has just hit? And fast enough to prevent other trains running into possible danger?

At 200+ mph, how will a human know what they have just hit? There will simply be a loud bang and possibly a broken window.

Neil
 

A-driver

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At 200+ mph, how will a human know what they have just hit? There will simply be a loud bang and possibly a broken window.

Neil


They will see it, just like they do at 125/140mph. You can still see a bird at speed. We are not talking light speed here...

I appreciate you are passionate about technology but you miss any real world experience of the railway environment which is essential when trying to implement changes this drastic! Hereford your arguments and ideas are very flawed.
 

SPADTrap

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It might not be financially viable in most cases, it might be in others. It is certainly 100% technically viable now. And technology always gets cheaper.
Neil

Are you sure about that? I'm certainly not but I'd love to hear more - beyond making a train go/stop of course..

Technology is just one part of what would be a very complex system!
 

Busaholic

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Regarding the quote from Baxenden Bank in Neil's first post, my understanding of the newer aircraft was that they can virtually fly themselves anyway so effectively the pilot could just sit there after take off and let it fly & even land itself. There are already anti-collision and other systems onboard to monitor the aircraft so maybe the makers of trains could learn a thing or two from the aircraft industry - anyone fancy a train made by Boeing or Airbus? :)

If you'd been a passenger in the plane which the pilot with incredible skill and sangfroid steered into the Hudson River in New York with no loss of life or serious injury a few years back I don't think you'd be now calling for any passenger vehicle to be without a pilot, driver or whatever. These people are highly paid for a very good reason and it's their ability to think through things as well as follow a mechanical process which makes them indispensable. We probably already have at least one instance of malfunctioning computer systems bringing a plane down unnecessarily (Air France flight 447).
 

SPADTrap

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If you'd been a passenger in the plane which the pilot with incredible skill and sangfroid steered into the Hudson River in New York with no loss of life or serious injury a few years back I don't think you'd be now calling for any passenger vehicle to be without a pilot, driver or whatever. These people are highly paid for a very good reason and it's their ability to think through things as well as follow a mechanical process which makes them indispensable. We probably already have at least one instance of malfunctioning computer systems bringing a plane down unnecessarily (Air France flight 447).

Not that I wish to be a pedant here because I 100% agree with you but the loss of AF447 isn't the best example of what you're saying.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Regarding the quote from Baxenden Bank in Neil's first post, my understanding of the newer aircraft was that they can virtually fly themselves anyway so effectively the pilot could just sit there after take off and let it fly & even land itself. There are already anti-collision and other systems onboard to monitor the aircraft so maybe the makers of trains could learn a thing or two from the aircraft industry - anyone fancy a train made by Boeing or Airbus? :)

Only if the airport is suitably equipped also - not all are so you can count a good few 'holiday' destinations as potentially unreachable with these new planes! :lol:
 

driver_m

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Let's just automate every job so that none of us work. We can just spend all day watching videos of cats doing stuff on YouTube and getting fatter and fatter and fatter with our unfulfilled lives.
 

Bob Ames

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All the ones on ATO lines would need to be!
It might not be financially viable in most cases, it might be in others.
Neil

Ah, so you want Network Rail to spend billions of tax-payers money on upgrading infrastructure so that a few greedy TOCs can save on driver bills and line the pockets of shareholders?
If a TOC wants autotrains so badly, they should make them work with the existing infrastructure rather than expect yet more public money.
Regarding reliability and availability, that can be improved through better rostering and management (at the TOC's own expense, of course! :D)
 

Dave1987

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Ah, so you want Network Rail to spend billions of tax-payers money on upgrading infrastructure so that a few greedy TOCs can save on driver bills and line the pockets of shareholders?
If a TOC wants autotrains so badly, they should make them work with the existing infrastructure rather than expect yet more public money.
Regarding reliability and availability, that can be improved through better rostering and management (at the TOC's own expense, of course! :D)

Please don't bring in the whole greedy TOC/nationalisation business into it.
 

TheKnightWho

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Let's just automate every job so that none of us work. We can just spend all day watching videos of cats doing stuff on YouTube and getting fatter and fatter and fatter with our unfulfilled lives.

People have been saying this since the year dot.

It's not like the choice is driving trains or nothing. Or maybe we're all "fulfilled" by working on a factory floor, or in the fields, or hunting and gathering...
 
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notadriver

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People have been saying this since the year dot.

It's not like the choice is driving trains or nothing. Or maybe we're all "fulfilled" by working on a factory floor, or in the fields, or hunting and gathering...

It is as far as this forum is concerned. 99 percent of people looking for career advice are only interested in driving and nothing else.
 

TheKnightWho

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It is as far as this forum is concerned. 99 percent of people looking for career advice are only interested in driving and nothing else.

Yes, but there are more things in this world than this forum. The fact that people come here for careers advice isn't particularly relevant.
 

A-driver

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People have been saying this since the year dot.

It's not like the choice is driving trains or nothing. Or maybe we're all "fulfilled" by working on a factory floor, or in the fields, or hunting and gathering...



Yes, but there are more things in this world than this forum. The fact that people come here for careers advice isn't particularly relevant.


I don't believe loss of jobs due to automation is a big deal as there will be other work for people to do however we are not Tallinn about unstaffed trains anyway-even if it was possible to remove the driver from the front there is still absolutely no way you could run a heavy rail network with no staff aboard the trains at all-no way that could be argued as safe or practical!

But this is largely irrelevant as whilst technology is easily available to make trains start and top without human intervention there is still a lot more that the driver is there for and does which wouldn't be as easy or practical to fully automate. Probably the main reason no one in the world has seriously considered driverless heavy rail as a realistic option and even the newest and most advanced trains and tracks in the world still have drivers who are heavily aided by automation and technology.
 

SPADTrap

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Or maybe we're all "fulfilled" by working on a factory floor, or in the fields, or hunting and gathering...

So leave your job (or don't get one in the first place!) then see how your mental well-being fairs! You have no idea.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I don't believe loss of jobs due to automation is a big deal as there will be other work for people to do however we are not Tallinn about unstaffed trains anyway-even if it was possible to remove the driver from the front there is still absolutely no way you could run a heavy rail network with no staff aboard the trains at all-no way that could be argued as safe or practical!

I would agree - I'm pretty certain what you'd get is a DLR-style situation where the guard would also have driving skills.

Neil
 

SPADTrap

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I would agree - I'm pretty certain what you'd get is a DLR-style situation where the guard would also have driving skills.

Neil

Which would be a waste of time and money in the real world IMO, it would achieve very little if anything!
 
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A-driver

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I would agree - I'm pretty certain what you'd get is a DLR-style situation where the guard would also have driving skills.



Neil


Which has no benifit whatsoever apart from perhaps some slight customer service style advantages but overall it will create more problems than it will solve!
 

TheKnightWho

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So leave your job (or don't get one in the first place!) then see how your mental well-being fairs! You have no idea.

I have a job! My point is that throughout history we've made jobs redundant, but new jobs are continually created in other industries.

It's not like people will be sitting around doing nothing if we have driverless trains.
 

SPADTrap

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It's not like people will be sitting around doing nothing if we have driverless trains.

Only someone who is yet to experience redundancy would say something like that. I say 'yet' because by your analogy whatever field you've grafted to be in soon wouldn't need you! Hope you fair better than some. Feel free to prove me wrong however.

Not sure how you can substantiate that claim either, do you think everyone who gets made redundant finds another job the following day and carries on as normal? :|

Again, no idea :(
 
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