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Is electrification needed to avoid a DMU order by 2020?

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SpacePhoenix

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The 395s have retractable shoes.
And its likely XC would go all electric before it goes bimode, they will probably retain the Voyagers until this is possible.
Also AC conversion is looking very shakey with all the electrification delays and DMU crunch meaning all 25kV construction resources are needed elsewhere.

Wouldn't XC have to go for bimodes? I thought that some of their route north of Basingstoke didn't have any electrification. I've not seen anything that 100% confirms that the electric spine work will actually go ahead
 
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TheKnightWho

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The 395s have retractable shoes.
And its likely XC would go all electric before it goes bimode, they will probably retain the Voyagers until this is possible.
Also AC conversion is looking very shakey with all the electrification delays and DMU crunch meaning all 25kV construction resources are needed elsewhere.

Sure, but my point is that even if Basingstoke-Southampton doesn't get converted then it's still a very small proportion of XC routes that would be on 750DC. Unless the additional cost would be small, it probably wouldn't be worth bothering having the capability installed.
 

The Ham

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Sure, but my point is that even if Basingstoke-Southampton doesn't get converted then it's still a very small proportion of XC routes that would be on 750DC. Unless the additional cost would be small, it probably wouldn't be worth bothering having the capability installed.

Given the 444's and 450's have been running around as 3rd rail EMU's but have the capability to run on OHLE with minor works (which may not be done until they are about halfway through their life if Southampton to Basingstoke is done). I would have thought that the additional cost would be a lot less than the cost of running 22x's, making it a bit of a no brainer.
 

RobShipway

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Given the 444's and 450's have been running around as 3rd rail EMU's but have the capability to run on OHLE with minor works (which may not be done until they are about halfway through their life if Southampton to Basingstoke is done). I would have thought that the additional cost would be a lot less than the cost of running 22x's, making it a bit of a no brainer.

If anything it would be the class 444's that would be used, as XC needs an Inter City style train with doors at the ends.

However, until routes such as the line north of Oxford and on to where the Birmingham Cross City route joins the line are electrified the 22x's will be the mainstay I would suspect unless they also end up using Class 800's.
 

GrimsbyPacer

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Wasn't there once plans to put pantographs on Voyagers to take advantage of overhead wires? Can the same be done for all 185s and 222s?
Then electric orders could be scrapped in favour of cheap Parry People Movers 139/2s which are efficient and low on pollution. And they can be charged up while stationary. Like a battery electric train but with flywheel energy storage instead.
 
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The Ham

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If anything it would be the class 444's that would be used, as XC needs an Inter City style train with doors at the ends.

However, until routes such as the line north of Oxford and on to where the Birmingham Cross City route joins the line are electrified the 22x's will be the mainstay I would suspect unless they also end up using Class 800's.

I wasn't suggesting that XC were going to use the 444's or 450's just that they were going to spend about half their life as DC only units, meaning that the cost to convert couldn't be that much.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, given that the XC franchise isn't going to be making any big changes until it is relet in 2019, by which point it will be a clear as to what electrification actually look like by the end of CP5 as well as what will be planned for CP6. If more of the XC network were to be electrified early in CP6 there could be a case for quite a few of the 22x routes to be run by EMU.
 

TheWalrus

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I always thought 395 Javelins would be good for Manchester to Bournemouth, as they have AC and DC capability?
 

GrimsbyPacer

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I always thought 395 Javelins would be good for Manchester to Bournemouth, as they have AC and DC capability?

I think the Javalins are currently wasted. A high speed train going 50mph round the Kent coast is surely a waste.
I was thinking that they might run somewhere after St Pancras.
Is the connection to the ECML and Midland mainline third rail or overhead electric? Or neither?
 

brianthegiant

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Wasn't there once plans to put pantographs on Voyagers to take advantage of overhead wires? Can the same be done for all 185s and 222s?
Bombardier did a costing for a 222 panto carriage & it was deemed uneconomic. You'd have to modify the rest of the train & install a HV wire along the roof to supply each motorised bogie a la Pendolino. Better use of funds to build new trains designed to run off 25kV than replace large number of components in diesels. New trains give you more extra capacity for you £ than modifying old ones in this context.
 

Emyr

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Then electric orders could be scrapped in favour of cheap Parry People Movers 139/2s which are efficient and low on pollution. And they can be charged up while stationary. Like a battery electric train but with flywheel energy storage instead.

Hahahaha no.

PPM have to be segregated from real trains because of crash safety. If they were a realistic option beyond isolated branches, there would have been at least a rumour since the Stourbridge pair were deployed years ago.
 

pemma

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Bombardier did a costing for a 222 panto carriage & it was deemed uneconomic. You'd have to modify the rest of the train & install a HV wire along the roof to supply each motorised bogie a la Pendolino. Better use of funds to build new trains designed to run off 25kV than replace large number of components in diesels. New trains give you more extra capacity for you £ than modifying old ones in this context.

It was actually a 220 carriage with the idea being all the XC 4 car 220s would become 5 car 220s and dual powered.

Even after the costings have been provided David Cameron did a speech where he said it was being looked at and would be a project benefiting the British economy (he thought the work would be done in Derby) to add much needed capacity to an overcrowded rail network. Someone then reminded the government Bombardier only build aluminium carriages in Derby and the Voyagers have steel carriages, with steel carriages being built in Belgium and the project was never mentioned again!
 

GrimsbyPacer

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Hahahaha no.

PPM have to be segregated from real trains because of crash safety. If they were a realistic option beyond isolated branches, there would have been at least a rumour since the Stourbridge pair were deployed years ago.

PPM have designs for full size and crash resistant bogie railcars.
A similar size to a 153 but slower speed and lighter.
I wasn't talking about the current 139.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Bombardier did a costing for a 222 panto carriage & it was deemed uneconomic. You'd have to modify the rest of the train & install a HV wire along the roof to supply each motorised bogie a la Pendolino. Better use of funds to build new trains designed to run off 25kV than replace large number of components in diesels. New trains give you more extra capacity for you £ than modifying old ones in this context.

Okay thanks, I wasn't sure about it. Just remembered it was considered.
 

edwin_m

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PPM have designs for full size and crash resistant bogie railcars.
A similar size to a 153 but slower speed and lighter.
I wasn't talking about the current 139.

If they're so good, why has nobody bought any?

The slow speed has already been mentioned as a problem for many routes the D78s might otherwise be suited for.

Parry is a minnow compared with any established train manufacturer, and their background in simple and appropriate technology for developing countries doesn't really suit them to producing something that meets the exacting standards we expect on our national network. People in the industry who have had dealings with them often resort to less moderated words when expressing this view.

The Parry premises are the collection of small sheds in this aerial view, which gives some idea of their scale and capababilities.

http://binged.it/1vtn47O
 

DynamicSpirit

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Surely there has to be a way - hire more people - great for unemployment figures- subcontract a huge amount of the work. It just totally upsets me that for whatever reason we have governments of all shades wanting electrification- once in a lifetime - and the railways can not capitalize on this golden opportunity.

How many people looking for jobs have the required skills and education to do electrification work? My guess would be roughly zero.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The key point is how the end-of-life profile of the existing fleets fits with the profile of units being made redundant by electrification.

The original plan seems to have been that electrification would render several DMU classes redundant (probably the Pacers and 153s) before 2020 so these would not require accessibility mods. Most of the electrification schemes have slipped back, but only by a couple of years. So there are several choices in respect of these classes:

- Pay for accessibility mods for units that will remain in use for only a few more years. Arguably not a worthwhile way to spend money.

- Obtain derogation from accessibility mods to minimise spend on technical life extension. Cheaper but may be politically unacceptable with disability groups or just passengers fed up with worn out Pacers, so risks having to spend even more to do the mods at short notice.

- Buy new units. This would lead to arguably premature replacement of other classes such as 150 once the committed electrification schemes are delivered. Merit of this depends on whether the 150s etc will last another few years without drastic costs or plummeting reliability, and on whether further electrifications will be authorised for delivery in the 2020s. The latter depends to some degree on whether NR can recover its current difficulties and persuade DfT that it can deliver electrification schemes.

- Buy short-life "new" units such as D78s. This is a good option if you believe the D78s will work and be suitable and attractive to passengers on the routes they are assigned to, and if you also believe the 150s etc can reasonably be kept going until the mid to late 2020s and that there will be more electrification authorised during that decade.

Most of the above are unknowns at present (to me at least). If I ruled the world I think I'd plump for the D78s, assuming the prototype is promising, to tide us over for a decade or so by which time there should be more certainty on many of them.

As another alternative: How feasible would it be to build DMUs that are specially designed to be easily convertible to EMUs if required later on? Presumably it would not be too dissimilar to building bi-mode trains, but without actually fitting the electric engines? If that is feasible, then doing that would appear to allow a new DMU order of trains that will run for their full lifetimes.
 
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TheKnightWho

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How many people looking for jobs have the required skills and education to do electrification work? My guess would be roughly zero.

And the government's hardline policy on immigration isn't attracting people from abroad who could do the job.

It's almost like this kind of attitude is bad for the economy. Who'dda thunk it?
 

DynamicSpirit

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How many people looking for jobs have the required skills and education to do electrification work? My guess would be roughly zero.

Re-reading I've realized that probably came across as more negative than I intended. I actually think that hiring more people - spending the money to recruit the unemployed is in principle a very good idea - good for the economy, and we need the electrification. However it's not that simple because of the lack of skills - so you need to do a lot of training first, which is a significant investment in its own right and is likely to take some years to produce any returns. I seem to recall reading that Network Rail is in fact investing in training for rail-related engineering, although offhand I don't know the details.
 

edwin_m

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As another alternative: How feasible would it be to build DMUs that are specially designed to be easily convertible to EMUs if required later on? Presumably it would not be too dissimilar to building bi-mode trains, but without actually fitting the electric engines? If that is feasible, then doing that would appear to allow a new DMU order of trains that will run for their full lifetimes.

I think that's the only way we are going to get any sort of DMU other than D78s.
 

The Ham

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How many people looking for jobs have the required skills and education to do electrification work? My guess would be roughly zero.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


As another alternative: How feasible would it be to build DMUs that are specially designed to be easily convertible to EMUs if required later on? Presumably it would not be too dissimilar to building bi-mode trains, but without actually fitting the electric engines? If that is feasible, then doing that would appear to allow a new DMU order of trains that will run for their full lifetimes.

The simplist way to design a bi-modal is to have a train which is basically an EMU with a diesel generator for power away from the wires. That then means that to convert it all you have to do is remove the diesel generator.
 

TheKnightWho

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I think that's the only way we are going to get any sort of DMU other than D78s.

I can't imagine that happening with trains *not* being bimodes, really. After the latest batch of electrification there will be huge numbers of branch line trains spending at least some time on electric track, and those who don't can very easily cope with the large numbers of diesel traction we have running now.
 

Camden

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The simplist way to design a bi-modal is to have a train which is basically an EMU with a diesel generator for power away from the wires. That then means that to convert it all you have to do is remove the diesel generator.

Is that not the D train approach? (Except it isn't going to touch the wires, in this case)
 

zuriblue

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AM9

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Something like this?

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...view/first-electro-diesel-flirts-ordered.html

Heck of a discrepancy between the modes, 2.6 MW and 160 kph under knitting, 700 kW and 140 kph under diesel.

Doesn't that work the right way, - enough power to keep up with other traffic on the main line which is more likely electrified and lower power to trundle down the branch line which may well have lower linespeed limits anyway. The only situation where that might not work well is if the branch line has steep gradients.
 
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