DOO and early running trains

leytongabriel · 16 Feb 2015

On the last eastbound GOBLIN train last night, brisk running meant we were early leaving every intermediate station while I was on the train.

Sample: doors closed at 23.15.49 for the 23.17 departure from Crouch Hill with train moving off a couple of seconds later.

Guards used to hold train until correct departure time. Some might say passengers need to get there early but this can't be acceptable for a last train.

Anyone else noticed the same problem when there are no guards?

RailUK Forums

TB93 · 16 Feb 2015

Driver runs his train to his watch not yours?

A-driver · 16 Feb 2015

Issue is tht drivers can't normally see any platform clocks so run by cab clocks or watches. If this train ran constantly a min early as you say (the close door time makes sense for it to be deliberate-15secs before time) then chances are it's as simple as the clock the driver is using is 1min ahead of the one you were looking at (not saying you are wrong, saying it simply sounds like the drivers watch was a min out).

Not much the driver can do about that, and often platform clocks are out with each other as well.

I'm sure some guards have had this issue to, but it's often easier for them to see the platform clock-drivers are normally right on the end of te platform looking in screens with te station clock behind them.

me123 · 16 Feb 2015

Can't say I've noticed a big problem in Glasgow, where DOO is commonplace. At many stations, they should be able to see the platform clock. I have wondered why they don't have clocks beside the DOO CCTV screens for this purpose, but add I've said I've rarely (if ever) noticed any issues with early running.

Llanigraham · 16 Feb 2015

What's a GOBLIN train?

Antman · 16 Feb 2015

Llanigraham said:
What's a GOBLIN train?

Gospel Oak to Barking on London Overground
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

leytongabriel said:
On the last eastbound GOBLIN train last night, brisk running meant we were early leaving every intermediate station while I was on the train.

Sample: doors closed at 23.15.49 for the 23.17 departure from Crouch Hill with train moving off a couple of seconds later.

Guards used to hold train until correct departure time. Some might say passengers need to get there early but this can't be acceptable for a last train.

Anyone else noticed the same problem when there are no guards?

Not good enough especially if it is the last train, have you contacted TfL?

I can't say I've noticed early running on DOO

richw · 16 Feb 2015

Real time trains showing it ran quarter to half a minute early through out the entire journey.
Doors are advertised as closed 40 seconds before departure, so a prompt closure and get under way quickly would allow a 30 second early running.

leaffall · 16 Feb 2015

The long and the short of it is that it should make no difference whatsoever whether it's a guard or a DOO. We get issued these "radio controlled" watches which synch every night with a signal sent from the atomic clock at the National Physics Laboratory in Rugby. I often check my watch against the time signal and its spot on. But that said, I have heard from other drivers that they can go wrong. Also, when I can see a platform sign I'll check my watch against it, and if there's only a matter of seconds in it then I'll wait until the time shown on the platform clock, if I can't see the platform clock I'll go by my watch. As has been said the chances are the drivers watch was wrong. There would be nothing to be gained by leaving a minute early so I'm sure he wasn't doing it knowingly.

hairyhandedfool · 16 Feb 2015

To be completely honest, I think if a passenger misses a train by a minute or less then they are cutting it too fine.

221129 · 16 Feb 2015

Especially the last train of the day...

tsr · 16 Feb 2015

me123 said:
I have wondered why they don't have clocks beside the DOO CCTV screens for this purpose, but add I've said I've rarely (if ever) noticed any issues with early running.

These exist at the (usual) drivers' end of some Tube platforms.

Antman · 16 Feb 2015

hairyhandedfool said:
To be completely honest, I think if a passenger misses a train by a minute or less then they are cutting it too fine.

You're missing the point, ideally intending passengers wouldn't cut it that fine but they may have been delayed en route. If a train (or bus) departs at 23.30 you don't expect to arrive at 23.29 and find it has gone.

A-driver · 16 Feb 2015

Antman said:
Gospel Oak to Barking on London Overground
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not good enough especially if it is the last train, have you contacted TfL?

I can't say I've noticed early running on DOO

Why contact TfL? Did it affect you or the OP personally? No? So reporting it is basically sticking ones nose into things that don't concern them! If anyone actually missed it then they could complain. Don't need busy bodies reporting things that they were not directly involved in...that is just trouble making and grassing people up...

hairyhandedfool · 16 Feb 2015

Antman said:
You're missing the point, ideally intending passengers wouldn't cut it that fine but they may have been delayed en route. If a train (or bus) departs at 23.30 you don't expect to arrive at 23.29 and find it has gone.

If they allow plenty of time, get delayed and the train actually leaves early, I'd suggest they don't buy a lottery ticket any time soon. The number of times I have been delayed and missed a train as a result, in the last ten years, can be counted on one hand.

HarleyDavidson · 16 Feb 2015

A-driver said:
Why contact TfL? Did it affect you or the OP personally? No? So reporting it is basically sticking ones nose into things that don't concern them! If anyone actually missed it then they could complain. Don't need busy bodies reporting things that they were not directly involved in...that is just trouble making and grassing people up...

Well said...

With us it's door close 30s prior to departure, arrive at departure time -29s and you're too late. And we've had this discussion a million times before about locking the doors 30s-60s prior to departure, that's what the company wants, that's what the company gets, whether you like or not, the subject is moot. We just do as we're told.

RPM · 16 Feb 2015

From a personal perspective, I do tend to be extra alert for last minute Charlies when I know my train is the final one of the day. But it is the kind of thing that is left to individual drivers' initiative. There's no official policy.

Antman · 16 Feb 2015

A-driver said:
Why contact TfL? Did it affect you or the OP personally? No? So reporting it is basically sticking ones nose into things that don't concern them! If anyone actually missed it then they could complain. Don't need busy bodies reporting things that they were not directly involved in...that is just trouble making and grassing people up...

Because drivers should not be leaving early......simple
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

RPM said:
From a personal perspective, I do tend to be extra alert for last minute Charlies when I know my train is the final one of the day. But it is the kind of thing that is left to individual drivers' initiative. There's no official policy.

Good for you, I'd like to think most drivers do likewise

richw · 16 Feb 2015

HarleyDavidson said:
Well said...

With us it's door close 30s prior to departure, arrive at departure time -29s and you're too late. And we've had this discussion a million times before about locking the doors 30s-60s prior to departure, that's what the company wants, that's what the company gets, whether you like or not, the subject is moot. We just do as we're told.

This is well advertised at every station I have visited in recent times.
I always get to the station at least 5 minutes before my train time, if it's the last train at least 10 minutes. If I can't achieve such, I will not use the train.
At that time of the night being held in traffic isn't an excuse for cutting it too fine.
All of the posters about door locking state 40 seconds before scheduled departure, therefore that to me says if train is xx:30, you must be ready to board no later than xx:29

A-driver · 16 Feb 2015

Antman said:
Because drivers should not be leaving early......simple
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Agreed. But it's not for some bystander who's not affected by it to grass people up for the sake of it...

ComUtoR · 16 Feb 2015

Antman said:
Because drivers should not be leaving early......simple

Good for you, I'd like to think most drivers do likewise

Bad if they leave early but good if they hold the train for late running passengers and the whole service runs late ?

The train should run to the timetable. If your running late and the Driver closes the door on you and laughs maniacally to themselves then its your fault. If the train eaves early then its the Drivers fault and feel free to report it. Its bad behavior by the Driver.

However; you cannot have your cake and eat it. Its timetable or nothing. I'd love to say we aren't all evil but if passengers want us to be flexible and make judgement calls to hold services etc then you also have to accept that people make errors. If you wish to moan on a forum and complain to the TOC's about the smallest errors all the time then you may find that Drivers flexibility goes out the window and it does become timetable or nothing. None of us want that.

Factors at play for those wishing enlightenment.

Drivers/Guards run the train according to..
Their watch (radio controlled)
Their schedule (the WTT, STP diagrams)
-30s to timetable Doors closed
Service disruption (may be asked to call earlier)
Special stop/not to stop orders

Other...
Platform clocks aren't synched to all platforms, stations, watches.
Timetables may be out of date (online apps etc may differ)
Engineering amendments (STP Diagrams)

Probably other casual factors too but none immediately spring to mind.

Antman · 16 Feb 2015

ComUtoR said:
Bad if they leave early but good if they hold the train for late running passengers and the whole service runs late ?

The train should run to the timetable. If your running late and the Driver closes the door on you and laughs maniacally to themselves then its your fault. If the train eaves early then its the Drivers fault and feel free to report it. Its bad behavior by the Driver.

However; you cannot have your cake and eat it. Its timetable or nothing. I'd love to say we aren't all evil but if passengers want us to be flexible and make judgement calls to hold services etc then you also have to accept that people make errors. If you wish to moan on a forum and complain to the TOC's about the smallest errors all the time then you may find that Drivers flexibility goes out the window and it does become timetable or nothing. None of us want that.

Factors at play for those wishing enlightenment.

Drivers/Guards run the train according to..
Their watch (radio controlled)
Their schedule (the WTT, STP diagrams)
-30s to timetable Doors closed
Service disruption (may be asked to call earlier)
Special stop/not to stop orders

Other...
Platform clocks aren't synched to all platforms, stations, watches.
Timetables may be out of date (online apps etc may differ)
Engineering amendments (STP Diagrams)

Probably other casual factors too but none immediately spring to mind.

Oh come on expecting a driver not to run ahead of a timetable is not too much to ask, a few minutes late is no great hardship.

Clip · 16 Feb 2015

Antman said:
Because drivers should not be leaving early......simple

Ok then shall we get them all to leave late instead then?

Antman said:
Oh come on expecting a driver not to run ahead of a timetable is not too much to ask, a few minutes late is no great hardship.

Its no great hardship to be nice and early for your train

Skoodle · 17 Feb 2015

As an aside, I can assure you that Control would know if it's running early (it will show up on their screens) and a "please explain" will be sent to the driver concerned. No need to contact anyone about it. Control and signallers know a lot more of what's going on than the TOCS twitter teams too!

Nippy · 17 Feb 2015

I don't know why they can't advertise every train as one minute earlier than the WTT time. Then, the doors shut at the advertised public time, train departs approx 30 seconds early by WTT time.

hairyhandedfool · 17 Feb 2015

Antman said:
Oh come on expecting a driver not to run ahead of a timetable is not too much to ask, a few minutes late is no great hardship.

Imagine, a train arrives at a station and the station clock says it's a minute early. The crew decide to wait a minute based on that. At the next stop it is a minute early again, so they wait again. They make another five stops and at three of them they appear to be running early, by the station clock, and wait for time. Then, at the eighth stop, the clock says they are five minutes late, the TOC might now be staring at delay payments, for late running trains, and some passengers are now anxious about missing a connecting train.......

Train crew might take account of station clocks, but there is only one consistant clock they can look at, the one on their wrist.

SpacePhoenix · 17 Feb 2015

Once the ETRMS starts being rolled out, will there be a common time signal to it that all drivers could go by?

Antman · 17 Feb 2015

hairyhandedfool said:
Imagine, a train arrives at a station and the station clock says it's a minute early. The crew decide to wait a minute based on that. At the next stop it is a minute early again, so they wait again. They make another five stops and at three of them they appear to be running early, by the station clock, and wait for time. Then, at the eighth stop, the clock says they are five minutes late, the TOC might now be staring at delay payments, for late running trains, and some passengers are now anxious about missing a connecting train.......

Train crew might take account of station clocks, but there is only one consistant clock they can look at, the one on their wrist.

Or maybe TOC's could ensure they have accurate time keeping devices?

Skoodle · 17 Feb 2015

Antman said:
Or maybe TOC's could ensure they have accurate time keeping devices?

Same could be said for passengers! Which is why you should arrive in plenty of time for your train.

Antman · 17 Feb 2015

Skoodle said:
Same could be said for passengers! Which is why you should arrive in plenty of time for your train.

We've been through that, passengers do sometimes get delayed en route just like train crew do

A-driver · 17 Feb 2015

Antman said:
We've been through that, passengers do sometimes get delayed en route just like train crew do

In which case they need to accept that the delay on route may cause ten to miss their train...

DOO and early running trains

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