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Major problems at London Bridge on Tuesday 3rd March

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Evvy73

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Due to problems with the signaling (again!) and a person hit by a train near Balham, it appears to be chaos at London Bridge again.
Pictures on Twitter show people jumping the ticket barriers or crawling underneath them to get out of the crush!
Lots of other people reporting being crushed as they entered the station.
Other pictures show massive overcrowding outside of the station.

I think the problem is largely due to the suspension of trains at VIC meaning many people headed for LBG. This compounded with the signal failures has caused the chaos.

Pictures From twitter Here:-
https://twitter.com/BlowersSon/status/572830862972203008/photo/1
 
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TfL website shows London Overground suspended Highbury & Islington to New Cross/Crystal Palace, West Croydon and Clapham Junction. Reported as a failed train at Hoxton.
 

Evvy73

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Blimey! That's not going to help matters in that area either!

VERY glad I wasn't commuting today!
 

ushawk

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Did they not think of opening the gates? That looks unacceptable.

Which would then crush load the platforms due to the amount of people on them. The trains werent there due to disruption and then when the trains did arrive, you have got to get people off them safely. With a platform full of commuters, that wouldnt happen as they would force themselves onto the train.

If people waited patiently, none of this would ever happen.
 

Antman

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Which would then crush load the platforms due to the amount of people on them. The trains werent there due to disruption and then when the trains did arrive, you have got to get people off them safely. With a platform full of commuters, that wouldnt happen as they would force themselves onto the train.

If people waited patiently, none of this would ever happen.

One of my neighbours was there and said it was pretty scary with serious safety concerns, she gave up and found another way home.

Expecting people to wait patiently is probably a bit much to expect.
 
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Seems that there is now evidence of people committing criminal acts (i.e. not passing through the ticket barriers in the correct manner) unless of course now jumping over and limbo dancing under the barriers is the correct manner of using these machines. Where are the BTP when you need them.....<D

Paul
 

Via Bank

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Seems that there is now evidence of people committing criminal acts (i.e. not passing through the ticket barriers in the correct manner) unless of course now jumping over and limbo dancing under the barriers is the correct manner of using these machines. Where are the BTP when you need them.....<D

Paul

If you are being squashed from behind, cannot operate the barrier properly and fear for your life, what are you supposed to do? It is extremely lucky that no-one was hurt.

The station should not have been allowed to get this crowded. It should have been closed at the point the queueing system broke down, with Southeastern passengers sent to Cannon Street.
 

alastair

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Seems that there is now evidence of people committing criminal acts (i.e. not passing through the ticket barriers in the correct manner) unless of course now jumping over and limbo dancing under the barriers is the correct manner of using these machines. Where are the BTP when you need them.....<D

Paul

You can't be serious! Surely the "criminal act" was not setting the barriers as open if people were in danger of being crushed? And I find it hard to believe that BTP(had they been there)would not have immediately said that this should happen. Are you seriously suggesting that checking people have a valid ticket is more important than passengers possibly being injured?
 

NSEFAN

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alastair said:
You can't be serious! Surely the "criminal act" was not setting the barriers as open if people were in danger of being crushed? And I find it hard to believe that BTP(had they been there)would not have immediately said that this should happen. Are you seriously suggesting that checking people have a valid ticket is more important than passengers possibly being injured?
So instead we have dangerously overcrowded platforms and people falling onto the track? A better thing to have done would be to keep people outside the station. I suspect we are having 20/20 hindsight as per Finsbury Park on boxing day.
 

Busaholic

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Seems that there is now evidence of people committing criminal acts (i.e. not passing through the ticket barriers in the correct manner) unless of course now jumping over and limbo dancing under the barriers is the correct manner of using these machines. Where are the BTP when you need them.....<D

Paul

You weren't in charge at Hillsborough several years ago by any chance?
 

Bald Rick

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If you are being squashed from behind, cannot operate the barrier properly and fear for your life, what are you supposed to do? It is extremely lucky that no-one was hurt.

The station should not have been allowed to get this crowded. It should have been closed at the point the queueing system broke down, with Southeastern passengers sent to Cannon Street.

Just so we're all clear, whilst it was no doubt uncomfortable and inconvenient on that concourse last night, at no point was it unsafe. There are very clear crowd management procedures, and they were implemented by the book. Every train I catch each morning has far higher levels of crowding density.

As a further point of clarity, it was nothing to do with signal failures at London Bridge, both of which had been cleared up some hours before and weren't particularly disruptive anyway. It was caused by an unusually large number of people descending on the station as both the ELL, and Southern routes from Victoria, were closed which also had knock on delays to London Bridge services.

I can't recall a similar collection of concurrent incidents since the ELL opened.
 

FOH

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Just so we're all clear, whilst it was no doubt uncomfortable and inconvenient on that concourse last night, at no point was it unsafe. There are very clear crowd management procedures, and they were implemented by the book. Every train I catch each morning has far higher levels of crowding density.

As a further point of clarity, it was nothing to do with signal failures at London Bridge, both of which had been cleared up some hours before and weren't particularly disruptive anyway. It was caused by an unusually large number of people descending on the station as both the ELL, and Southern routes from Victoria, were closed which also had knock on delays to London Bridge services.

I can't recall a similar collection of concurrent incidents since the ELL opened.

Southern's propaganda machine in use again. It was crazy because nothing was leaving the station. The current clueless management team need to go.

BTW it's nice to have a thread in the main section of the site again after the moderators hid the last one away
 
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Bald Rick

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Southern's propaganda machine in use again

If that was aimed at me, sorry I don't work for Southern, nor do I speak for them. I'm just providing a few facts to balance some of the comments on here.
 

FOH

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I may have missed it elsewhere but the 10 o'clock news this evening mentioned some types of trains are fusing the new signals. Does anyone know anything more on this?
 

theironroad

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Let's be clear. There was a fatality. The lines were closed. The police control the situation, while they decide whether the death was suspicious or not. Someone has to go around and pick up the body pieces. The police tell NR they can run trains again. NR tell the tocs they can run trains. The tocs try to pick up the service, but rolling stock and crews are displaced. Platforms become crowded. Platforms become dangerously overcrowded. Barriers are used to stop people accessing overcrowded platforms. Commuters get frustrated. Some passengers think they know best and take decisions to get over and under barriers. Someone takes a picture and sends to evening standard. Evening standard jumps on its decades long anti rail agenda and goes for sound bites rather than in depth journalism. Result = dramatic pictures on front page....
 

Via Bank

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Just so we're all clear, whilst it was no doubt uncomfortable and inconvenient on that concourse last night, at no point was it unsafe. There are very clear crowd management procedures, and they were implemented by the book. Every train I catch each morning has far higher levels of crowding density.

Really? It looks to me very clear that getting people to queue directly at the gateline, rather than keeping a good distance away, is a recipe for a crush as soon as the gates are activated or a platform announced. What would have happened if—in one of the apparent cases of passengers being pushed against the gate paddles—one of the gates had failed and snapped open, for instance? What if there had been an emergency and the concourse needed to be evacuated? What if someone in the middle of the concourse had a medical emergency and needed to be attended to as soon as possible? Just because customers were not injured, it does not mean that there was not a significant risk of something nasty happening.

You can say that it was safe on paper, but the density I can see in the photographs is the sort I would expect to find in an extremely crowded train, not on a concourse (and I've been at Waterloo during major CSL2 events—incidentally this usually closes when the concourse is full, but with plenty of breathing space for passengers to move and escape if they wish.)

As a further point of clarity, it was nothing to do with signal failures at London Bridge, both of which had been cleared up some hours before and weren't particularly disruptive anyway. It was caused by an unusually large number of people descending on the station as both the ELL, and Southern routes from Victoria, were closed which also had knock on delays to London Bridge services.

Fine.

So why in god's name were so many passengers sent to (the extremely-congested-on-a-good-day) London Bridge, rather than being diverted to complete their journey by bus, or put in taxis to a point where they could re-join a train? Why were SE passengers not sent to board their trains at Cannon Street (literally walk across the bridge and turn left)?

Because of the breakdown in communication and the crowding last night, SN had customers who, aside from being frustrated at the delay, were angry at not getting adequate information, and—as a triple bonus—will now feel unsafe at London Bridge.

The incidents, including the sad fatality at Balcombe earlier in the day, that led to the events were probably unavoidable on the railway's part. But by putting more pressure on London Bridge than could be coped with, the railways have truly shown that the left arm does not know what the right arm is doing.

What an embarrassment.
 

ScotGG

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If it was a one off then maybe it can be said to be an over-reaction. Maybe if only a couple of times but it's almost daily that the service is pretty terrible with lateness and cancellations. Normally I would be against sensationalist media reporting but London Bridge is becoming ridiculous.

It's just a shame those who held up funding Thameslink for so long making such a poor situation worse (politicians and civil servants) will probably not be punished having retired or been promoted. Now the rebuild is happening with many more passengers using the station. Then there's NR's role. Even simple things have been cocked up, like not removing the toilets & shop on p1 (southeastern side) until months after changes begun. Who never saw that it would be a pinch point and arrange it before January? Don't tell me about leases etc. Whenever it was last renewed it should have only done so until late 2014. I know the whole thing cannot be removed due to holding up the roof but everything possible that could have been done should have been. That isn't now happening until April?
 

Antman

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Just so we're all clear, whilst it was no doubt uncomfortable and inconvenient on that concourse last night, at no point was it unsafe. There are very clear crowd management procedures, and they were implemented by the book. Every train I catch each morning has far higher levels of crowding density.

As a further point of clarity, it was nothing to do with signal failures at London Bridge, both of which had been cleared up some hours before and weren't particularly disruptive anyway. It was caused by an unusually large number of people descending on the station as both the ELL, and Southern routes from Victoria, were closed which also had knock on delays to London Bridge services.

I can't recall a similar collection of concurrent incidents since the ELL opened.

"At no point was it unsafe"........were you there? Only according to a neighbour of mine who was there it was very unsafe, lets just be grateful nothing serious did happen (the potential for another Hillsborough!) and hope lessons have been learned................a phrase about drinking sessions and breweries comes to mind!
 

sarahj

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"So why in god's name were so many passengers sent to (the extremely-congested-on-a-good-day) London Bridge, rather than being diverted to complete their journey by bus, or put in taxis to a point where they could re-join a train? Why were SE passengers not sent to board their trains at Cannon Street (literally walk across the bridge and turn left)?

Because of the breakdown in communication and the crowding last night, SN had customers who, aside from being frustrated at the delay, were angry at not getting adequate information, and—as a triple bonus—will now feel unsafe at London Bridge."

In reply:

At no point during the evening did I see a message saying go via London Bridge. I saw tickets being accepted on SWT/TL/SET/LT/LO/LB/MB. I can imagine folks took it to head to London Bridge on their own, despite that with only 3 approach tracks and 2 less platforms cannot cope. I've heard of others who headed to Farrington/City TL etc and while busy had a better time. Plus added to this was problems with the LO routes, so a possible other diversion was not open.

As an aside, as mentioned, it was not a fatality. The person was badly injured, but survived. However, the power still needed to be switched off and lines were closed for 45 mins. This was just at one of the worse times as trains are heading into london to pick folks up. And sending them to London Bridge is a no no as it can only just about cope with what gets sent there as is.
 

BzRail

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In reply:

At no point during the evening did I see a message saying go via London Bridge. I saw tickets being accepted on SWT/TL/SET/LT/LO/LB/MB. I can imagine folks took it to head to London Bridge on their own, despite that with only 3 approach tracks and 2 less platforms cannot cope. I've heard of others who headed to Farrington/City TL etc and while busy had a better time. Plus added to this was problems with the LO routes, so a possible other diversion was not open.

...And sending them to London Bridge is a no no as it can only just about cope with what gets sent there as is.

To be fair Sarah, people (like me) have to make a decision on which route to use based on the information available when we leave work. Yet again, in the case of London Bridge this time, it was completely wrong. National Rail Service Disruptions did say delays possible up to 17:00, but Live Departures showed all the Sussex coast trains as on-time. The person hit was shown as only affecting Victoria journeys. I am not stupid enough to expect zero knock-on effect due to congestion, displaced staff etc.

Sarah, I realise you are train crew so I am not blaming you. I am sure you suffer the same frustrations as the passengers. People, including me, appreciate you posting here with information.

I arrived at LBG at about 17:45 to find a massive crowd outside. Clearly the problem was known about for some time but not announced or published to anyone beyond the train company's inner sanctum. The staff on the ground tried their best, but they were also kept in the dark, and just reverted to their herding instinct, blocking people from accessing any trains which did depart. This was the second day in a row this had happened.

What I, and probably many thousands of others, want to know is why do train companies repeatedly refuse to supply timely and honest information about what is happening? Just a simple message like "overcrowding (expected) at London Bridge due to ...." would be enough for me to head for the Thameslink core instead, but no they cannot even do that and instead start blaming the mushroom cargo for the problem.

I fear the reaction to the cries of unsafe/crush/dangerous here and in the press may result in stations being completely closed in the future due to liability concerns. Trains will leave empty even more often. Train companies will continue with their asset sweating and fragile crewing schedules, and us passengers will be expected to donate even more of our time to 'The Railway'.

Last night (Wednesday) was a lot better, but still delays.

I just keep hoping things improve, this cannot go on. Best wishes all..
 
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Bald Rick

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I may have missed it elsewhere but the 10 o'clock news this evening mentioned some types of trains are fusing the new signals. Does anyone know anything more on this?

Not proven, but a line of enquiry with some evidence behind it. Let's just say it's a pig of a problem.

Antman said:
"At no point was it unsafe"........were you there? Only according to a neighbour of mine...

No I wasn't there, but neither were you. However I have spoken to the people in charge of the station that night (who go to court if people get hurt) and although it was clearly a very difficult night, they confirm it was not unsafe. The BTP were there throughout and have said the same (at very high levels I might add).

The comms point is a different matter, and one that needs sorting.
 
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Chrisgr31

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It should come as no surprise that Southern can't cope when they have an incident that closes the main line. Without fail their communication fails at times like this. I managed to avoid the London Bridge issues on both Monday and Tuesday because I was travelling on a late train.

I do agree that commuters have to wake up and smell the coffee. The reality is that Southern are running more and longer trains in to and out of London in the rush hours. This means that they are carrying more passengers, but it also means that once something goes wrong the consequences are worse. It is a simple equation we either have less/shorter trains that are more crowded but if something goes wrong the rcovery is easier as there are spare slots or more/longer trains which then means when there is disruption the consequences and recovery are worse as there are no spare slots.

However part of the problem at London Bridge is lack of space, and its made worse as people whos train has arrived then can't get through the crowds to actually board. Perhaps what is needed is specific queues for those wanting trains to Oxted, another one for Arun Vallet, another for Gatwick, another for East Croydon.

Then when the train to that destination comes in you release those prople to go to the Platform. Once the people in the queue fot the line have boarded you can then release some of the East Croydon people to fill the remaining space on it.
 

EM2

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What I, and probably many thousands of others, want to know is why do train companies repeatedly refuse to supply timely and honest information about what is happening? Just a simple message like "overcrowding (expected) at London Bridge due to ...." would be enough for me to head for the Thameslink core instead, but no they cannot even do that and instead start blaming the mushroom cargo for the problem.
I would have thought it was blatantly obvious. My first reaction on hearing there's disruption out of Victoria would be 'I'm going nowhere near London Bridge', because it's always busy, it's worse because of the rebuilding and any additional traffic is going to cause scenes like those reported.
 

Stompehh

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"At no point was it unsafe"........were you there? Only according to a neighbour of mine who was there it was very unsafe, lets just be grateful nothing serious did happen (the potential for another Hillsborough!) and hope lessons have been learned................a phrase about drinking sessions and breweries comes to mind!

All the pictures I've seen (mainly the ones on the DM article posted above) show a significant number of people, but all with plenty of space, just standing still looking down at their phones. No one pushing or shoving. I dread to think how these people would feel at a concert or a nightclub if they consider that dangerous...
 
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