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Croydon-wide 20mph road traffic speed limit

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Bletchleyite

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The problem with this is 2 fold, firstly I think that if you introduce 20mph speed limits then drivers are going to be concentrating on there speedos more than watching where they are going, not good and that (well my gran was told by the mechanic years ago) modern cars aren't designed to go so slowly (and this was in relation to a 1.6 Ford focus, not a hugely powerful car (a whole 100hp!).

Modern cars will happily do 20mph in the correct gear (in my Vectra, I usually find it's happy in the same gear as the first digit of the speed limit, i.e. up to 10 in 1st, 20 in 2nd, 30 in 3rd, but then 4th to accelerate and 5th to cruise above that). As the most efficient speed is usually said to be around 55-60mph, 20 vs. 30 is unlikely to make much odds.

Neil
 
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Aictos

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Peterborough suffers from terrible congestion in the city centre at the moment not just because of the major roadworks on the main North - South artery though the centre with the El Leader's response to lower the speed limit which will actually reduce congestion :roll:

The only major hassle on that road is the ill advised foot crossing which Waitrose asked for, being a hassle as you come off a roundabout and hit the crossing straight away :roll:

So no doubt the 20mph speed limit will be rolled out everywhere to little effect.
 

Busaholic

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Will this affect 20 mph limits also affect trams ?

As Croydon's trams see little road running, and most of what there is is on main roads, I can't see it making any difference. You could scarcely do 30 mph in George Street anyway!
 

radamfi

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if you introduce 20mph speed limits then drivers are going to be concentrating on there speedos more than watching where they are going

If you are interested in obeying the speed limit, then you will have to observe your speedometer frequently whether the speed limit is 30 mph or 20 mph.

I find it quite disturbing that even motoring organisations pedal the myth that checking your speedometer is dangerous. Anyone who has had driving lessons from a reputable instructor will know that you have to keep your eyes moving constantly, so you would be glancing at your speedometer as a matter of course.
 

BestWestern

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Portsmouth, contrary to some propaganda otherwise, has seen a reduction in KSIs on 20mph roads and is not choking under increased pollution. In some areas (eg Calderdale) 20mph schemes are being led- and paid for- by public health departments as the benefits are now proven.

How, exactly, are the supposed health benefits 'proven'; by what measure? Everybody suddenly living to 110? Or just an end to the relentless fiery carnage and gory death that is life on Britain's lethal 30mph side streets? Taking your Portsmouth example, of which I have plenty of experience, I can promise you there is a small enough proportion of road users actually driving at 20mph for the whole scheme to make barely any difference to anything.

I'm afraid I really fail to appreciate how this is any sort of priority in the grand scheme, considering the massive financial challenges facing local authorities. And if public health departments really are chucking their incredibly limited funds at playing with speed limits, then they need to be taking one hell of a good long look at their priorities.
 
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BestWestern

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Staying away from the 20splenty briefing notes (as you'd dismiss them as pure propaganda I would expect) there's this from NICE, for example: https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ph31

I'd hardly consider it cutting edge medical research to point out that cars moving more slowly cause less injury than those moving more quickly. But in that case why not go for 5mph/10mph/no cars allowed at all, etc...?!

Going outside into the big wide world will always carry risk. Unless we want the world to grind to a halt, we must accept that. The government were, supposedly, considering an increase in the motorway speed limit, to quicken journey times and boost the economy. Everybody crawling around at 20 at either end of their journey would appear to be singing from a different hymn sheet entirely.
 

grid56126

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Blanket 20mph zones won't work, the same numpties that ignore the 30mph limits will ignore the 20mph limits.

Over 30 kills, under tends not to. People driving in a 20 will almost certainly speed, but they are more likely to stick to 30 max instead of 40 odd they do in 30s now (not all will I know!). The inevitable child/car interfaces will be less deadly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If you are interested in obeying the speed limit, then you will have to observe your speedometer frequently whether the speed limit is 30 mph or 20 mph.

I find it quite disturbing that even motoring organisations pedal the myth that checking your speedometer is dangerous. Anyone who has had driving lessons from a reputable instructor will know that you have to keep your eyes moving constantly, so you would be glancing at your speedometer as a matter of course.

More and more modern cars have speed limiters, mine has a limiter and a cruise control. I very occasionally use the limiter in areas where I stop start a lot but to be honest the chances of getting over thirty are remote. I use the cruise in areas of decent runs. As an example, last night I drove from Purley Cross to Croydon flyover non stop at 30 on the cruise control. Not one adverse traffic light. Concentration was entirely on junctions, zebra crossings and other road users.

There is also a certain amount of technique at play. I have, over the last year or so changed mine completely. Where I would have always vied to be first at lights or aggressively jostled in queues I just hang back and chill. It changes everything. Before I would down at my speedo and see 40 and think - ok. Now with regular driving at 30 I tend to notice when i am going over. I am not complacent!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Modern cars will happily do 20mph in the correct gear (in my Vectra, I usually find it's happy in the same gear as the first digit of the speed limit, i.e. up to 10 in 1st, 20 in 2nd, 30 in 3rd, but then 4th to accelerate and 5th to cruise above that). As the most efficient speed is usually said to be around 55-60mph, 20 vs. 30 is unlikely to make much odds.
Neil

Absolutely with you on this. I was always a 30 in fourth driver and it's amazing how quickly toy are doing 40 without noticing. Stay in 3rd at 30 and you feel the revs going up which tends to keep your mind concentrated.

I have been using my average MPG gubbins and there is no difference what ever in consumption of using 3rd vice 4th or 4th vice 5th at 40.
 

Bletchleyite

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More and more modern cars have speed limiters, mine has a limiter and a cruise control. I very occasionally use the limiter in areas where I stop start a lot but to be honest the chances of getting over thirty are remote. I use the cruise in areas of decent runs. As an example, last night I drove from Purley Cross to Croydon flyover non stop at 30 on the cruise control. Not one adverse traffic light. Concentration was entirely on junctions, zebra crossings and other road users.

Interesting, as I never feel comfortable using cruise control on a road where I am likely to interact closely with other vehicles. My foot is just that little bit further from the brake than driving normally. (Probably OK with adaptive cruise control, though, if you had that). I only ever use it on a quiet motorway.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Going outside into the big wide world will always carry risk. Unless we want the world to grind to a halt, we must accept that. The government were, supposedly, considering an increase in the motorway speed limit, to quicken journey times and boost the economy. Everybody crawling around at 20 at either end of their journey would appear to be singing from a different hymn sheet entirely.

I was very disappointed that didn't go ahead. In most places, managed motorways aside, 80 is the de-facto limit (ish) - but there is very little enforcement and those doing 100 etc are getting away with putting others at a far higher risk[1] than those doing 70-80. So I would have been happy with a change to 80 as the limit, but a significant increase in enforcement and reduction in tolerance to stop people going *excessively* fast.

The difference with motorways is of course that there is (in normal cases) nobody walking on them - same as the railway - so the safety decision relates almost[2] solely to the safety of those in vehicles and on motorcycles. Which is different to 20mph residential areas, which I largely agree with - where I disagree is that 20mph is slowly working its way out of simple residential areas[3] and onto thoroughfares (the kind with pedestrian crossings provided, which people should be using, and the kind which are far too busy to have young children playing along them) and entire city centres, which I consider unnecessary. And I am not a fan of unnecessary safety measures.

[1] Modern cars can do 100mph safely in and of themselves - most are designed to work on the Autobahnen. However, most people don't have the reactions to deal with other vehicles doing 100mph or thereabouts, and it does create huge speed differentials which are what adds most risk on motorways.

[2] Though people on the hard shoulder are a consideration, they aren't supposed to be walking on the road, and if they are, serious accidents aside, they are putting themselves at a much higher risk than even walking along/across railways, which is seen as very much unacceptable.

[3] If, assuming you are not "rat running", the limit you are driving in goes 30-20-30, it is not a "simple residential area" but a "thoroughfare". The kind of residential areas I envisage would always be found at the start and end of journeys, not in the middle. The one exception is outside school during arrival/departure times, which can be dealt with by way of temporary limits.

Neil
 
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brianthegiant

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why not go for 5mph/10mph/no cars allowed at all, etc...?!
bogus straw man argument, obviously you have to optimise the speed limit between the various constraints incl traffic flow, safety.

Blanket 20mph zones won't work, the same numpties that ignore the 30mph limits will ignore the 20mph limits.
If someone hares along a quiet street at 32 in a 20mph limit and is involved in an accident or gets radared at least it is clear in the law that they are in the wrong and you don't have to ry to argue dangerous driving which is wide open to interpretation. But majority of people are law abiding and so average speeds will reduce

The land of Porcshe & Autobahns did this ages ago (30kph (20mph) in residential streets).

the generic UK 30mph limit was introduced in the 1930s when cars had less acceleration, and streets weren't so full of parked cars to block sight lines. It is high time to re-evaluate what local residential streets are for.
 

Bletchleyite

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The land of Porcshe & Autobahns did this ages ago (30kph (20mph) in residential streets).

the generic UK 30mph limit was introduced in the 1930s when cars had less acceleration, and streets weren't so full of parked cars to block sight lines. It is high time to re-evaluate what local residential streets are for.

The problem, though, is not where this applies to local residential streets (I would be happy with these being "home zones" with a 10mph limit and absolute priority to pedestrians and cycles). Many Councils are applying it on a more blanket basis, including near where my parents live where there is a main road through the village with a 20 on it, and locally to me there was a proposal to apply one to a similarly main thoroughfare. In my view, it's not a residential street of the type that should get a 20 limit if you would, if not rat-running, drive down it in the course of a journey not accessing that estate at either end.

I don't like it in central London either, as as a cyclist it means a vehicle that is a threat takes longer to overtake than it otherwise would. Set the limit to 10mph, or ban all overtaking, and you might get a safety benefit, but 20mph is a fair lick to ride a Boris bike or similar city bike, so the only people it benefits are the Lycra brigade, and that won't in and of itself encourage old Mrs Smith to cycle on her ageing shopper bike like we might want, nor substantially increase her safety.

Well-designed modern residential streets (and heavily-parked older terraced ones) are barely driveable at 20mph anyway, let alone 30. In Milton Keynes generally (or rather the 1990s and later estates; the original ones follow a different, mainly segregation, model), newer estates are 20 and older ones 30, but there isn't a lot of visible difference in how people drive, because many of the roads are so winding, full of speed-bumps, chicanes (both natural and man-made) etc that driving over 20 isn't comfortable anyway.

Neil
 
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Busaholic

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I drive down country lanes virtually every day of my life, some of them quite long, and all have a theoretical speed limit of 60 mph, which is madness. There is virtually nowhere where two cars travelling in opposite directions can pass easily without slowing down, some places where it is impossible without one reversing, and when you put lorries and tractors into the mix it is insane. 30 to 40 mph is the safe driving speed, but when you do this you get other drivers right up behind trying to harass you. Left to their own devices, some of these drivers will do 50 or 60 and that is when yoy hear of these horrific rural accidents. I also forgot to mention, with a riding school in the area, there are always horses out in the daytime too, sometimes even at twilight time. The problem of introducing even a 50 mph limit though would be its enforcement.
 

jopsuk

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Speaking to engineers who know about this sort of thing, in general the majority do obey lowered speed limits (bot urban and rural), as measured using recording equipment- typically the twin pneumatic tube type.
The motorway limit raise was dropped when the political rhetoric met hard accident and pollution data and forecasts.
 

Bletchleyite

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The motorway limit raise was dropped when the political rhetoric met hard accident and pollution data and forecasts.

Did the plan include the idea of increased enforcement in the case of 80, though? Or was it based around managed motorways eventually getting everywhere and thus the 70 being enforced more strictly?

As 80mph is a fairly normal speed on many stretches of non-managed motorways now, and it is to all intents and purposes unenforced.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The problem of introducing even a 50 mph limit though would be its enforcement.

As technology gets cheaper, might it be feasible to install cameras in these areas, connected via the wi-fi of some of the homes? As the residents tend to support rural limits, perhaps they would be willing to give up a few bytes in order to have better enforcement?

I agree that 30-40mph is a sensible speed on most single track roads. If that. Though sometimes the danger of setting a lower limit is people assume the limit is safe when really there are plenty of places on country lanes where 20mph is too fast.

Neil
 
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radamfi

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As technology gets cheaper, might it be feasible to install cameras in these areas, connected via the wi-fi of some of the homes? As the residents tend to support rural limits, perhaps they would be willing to give up a few bytes in order to have better enforcement?

Other than variable speed limits on motorways, fixed speed cameras have been made politically unacceptable. There is less hostility against average speed cameras, though. You have to be very careless to get caught by those as there are so many speed limit reminders, so there is really no excuse.

Also people are have already been successfully prosecuted using dashcam evidence, although not for speeding AFAIK. If you are driving at the limit and you film someone overtaking you and whizzing into the distance, that should be enough evidence for prosecution. If you overtake someone already doing the limit, you can't use the excuse that it is dangerous to look at the speedometer.

At the end of the day, humans cannot be trusted to stick to limits, so GPS controlled limiters should be made mandatory as soon as possible. Obviously driverless cars won't speed.
 

Bletchleyite

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Other than variable speed limits on motorways, fixed speed cameras have been made politically unacceptable. There is less hostility against average speed cameras, though. You have to be very careless to get caught by those as there are so many speed limit reminders, so there is really no excuse.

I believe new generation Managed Motorways will be average cameras, which I very much support. There are too many people who brake for the cameras on Managed Motorways, and it defeats the purpose (of avoiding the brake-light cascade).

At the end of the day, humans cannot be trusted to stick to limits, so GPS controlled limiters should be made mandatory as soon as possible. Obviously driverless cars won't speed.

That'll be a long time, as while my satnav has a reasonably accurate speed limit map it isn't 100%, and it does sometimes get confused and think it's 30 when it's actually 70. One car doing that would cause a pile-up.
 

GodAtum

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I don't like it in central London either, as as a cyclist it means a vehicle that is a threat takes longer to overtake than it otherwise would. Set the limit to 10mph, or ban all overtaking, and you might get a safety benefit, but 20mph is a fair lick to ride a Boris bike or similar city bike, so the only people it benefits are the Lycra brigade, and that won't in and of itself encourage old Mrs Smith to cycle on her ageing shopper bike like we might want, nor substantially increase her safety.

Interesting, so a 20 speed limit will make it more dangerous for cyclists?
 

Bletchleyite

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Interesting, so a 20 speed limit will make it more dangerous for cyclists?

Possibly not actually more dangerous, because the risk of being killed if hit is lower. But certainly a feeling of it being more dangerous, which while possibly irrational can and does put people off cycling. (Consider that in Milton Keynes it is far safer, statistically, to use the subways and bridges to cross 60/70mph main roads, but so many people don't because they are concerned about being attacked - infinitessimally unlikely, compared with the high chance of being run over on a fast dual carriageway, but perception is a powerful thing).

When cycling in a big city like London, the thing I really hate is having a large vehicle passing me, often quite close, knowing full well he can't see me as I'm in his blind spot. I hate that far more than it travelling faster to get passing me over with.
 
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brianthegiant

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Also people are have already been successfully prosecuted using dashcam evidence, although not for speeding AFAIK. If you are driving at the limit and you film someone overtaking you and whizzing into the distance, that should be enough evidence for prosecution. If you overtake someone already doing the limit, you can't use the excuse that it is dangerous to look at the speedometer.
I can imagine private footage being successfully to convict binary offences (talking on phone, jumping reds, no seat belt).
But for speed offences, wouldn't the defence barrister ask when was the speedometer of the filming vehicle last calibrated and what is the accuracy of the cheap plastic speedo?

I think there have also been successful prosecutions for offences based on cyclist helmet cam footage, but not for speeding and I think the more successful vigilantes have multiple cameras.
Having had witnessed a few junction priority offences recently which nearly knocked me off, I'm quite tempted by the helmet cam option, but its another hobby i don't really have time for.
 

jon0844

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More a case of it simply not being enforced in most cases, like Islington.
 

radamfi

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But for speed offences, wouldn't the defence barrister ask when was the speedometer of the filming vehicle last calibrated and what is the accuracy of the cheap plastic speedo?

From the footage, you can measure the time that vehicle takes to travel between two landmarks so the dashcam doesn't need to measure speed.
 

jopsuk

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i thought a 20 zone wasnt legally enforceable?

Urban legend. Gatsos & Truvelos (the common single fixed cameras) aren't type-approved for 20mph, but most average speed, plus police hand held speed measurment "guns", are.
 

jon0844

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From the footage, you can measure the time that vehicle takes to travel between two landmarks so the dashcam doesn't need to measure speed.

My dashcam has GPS and records speed on the video footage (as well as measuring force, so it can show if I am/was turning, accelerating, braking etc). Quite nifty actually.

Maybe GPS speed isn't going to be usable in court (I'm sure a good solicitor could argue it isn't perfect) but then you can indeed look at the footage itself.
 

Busaholic

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i thought a 20 zone wasnt legally enforceable?

I've been scouring the internet for something definitive, unambiguous and, most of all, correct, but it's pretty hard to find. The best I can find is from ACPO (the Association of Chief Police Officers) which states 20 mph limits are legally enforceable then goes on to indicate that, in normal circumstances, the police have better uses of their time than to do this! There is a hint, too, that a 20mph limit that is not part of a 20mph zone might just attract more police attention, but you do have to read between the lines somewhat.
 

jon0844

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It's madness to have a 20mph limit on major roads in central London, and nobody (not even buses that could be tracked very easily with control coming down on them hard) sticks to 20mph. Traffic excepted, of course (but roads aren't congested 24/7).

On side roads, or near schools, I'm all for 20mph roads. In fact, I'm a road that - sort of - has a 20mph limit. I don't think there's actually a valid traffic order (yet) and the road is 20mph from one way into the estate and 30 the other, but it's sensible where it's all residential and the roads are narrower.

If they decided to make every road in Hatfield 20mph, including the sections with 40, 50 and 60 limits, it would be insane. But it might happen one day. I know the police would think it madness and would do little, if anything, to enforce on those roads.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's madness to have a 20mph limit on major roads in central London, and nobody (not even buses that could be tracked very easily with control coming down on them hard) sticks to 20mph.

I agree. There are places 20mph makes sense, e.g. areas where children play - blanket 20mph does not. It just breeds contempt and ends up being ignored.
 
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