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London motorists to be fined for idling engines: could the same happen with locos?

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Topgun333

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London motorists are to be fined for idling engines too long and this will apply to buses and taxis also.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-31989916

Motorists in Westminster who sit in a stationary car with the engine running and refuse to turn it off are to be fined £20.

The move reflects concerns from local residents and businesses about air quality, Westminster City Council said.

A team of traffic marshals will patrol the borough and ask car owners with stationary vehicles to switch off their engines, the council said.

The penalties will come into force on 1 May, as a "last resort".

The new policy follows Camden Council's fines for buses which idle for too long, introduced in 2011.
Should such a policy be written to apply to diesel rail locomotion also? I am more than aware of posters stating previously that older locos and units cause less environmental damage by idling rather than switching engines off and on but surely the rail industry has to move with the times and make a better effort than it does currently.

I find it difficult to believe that it could be environmentally better to idle a modern or relatively modern loco or unit such as a Class 68 or a Class 185 for example.

Thoughts?
 
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Bletchleyite

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It's been practice for years in environment-obsessed Germany not to leave locos/units idling for hours on end even when there is no need. Yes, I do think that would be of benefit.
 

physics34

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Not sure about other units but Southern 171s shutdown after idling for more than 15 mins with no drivers EP key on.
 

jopsuk

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Diesel traction into London terminals is mainly a minority. There is 9with weekday off peak frequency for some):
Southern: Uckfield services into London Bridge (1tph)
South West Trains: Exeter/Salisbury into Waterloo (2tph)
First Great Western: Paddington, extensive, to be hugely reduced by Crossrail and GW Electrification.
Chiltern: All services into Marylebone (plus 1tpd into Paddington)
Virgin Trains West Coast: some Euston services operated by Voyagers.
East Midlands Trains: All St Pancras services
Virgin Trains East Coast: into Kings Cross about 1/3 of the fleet is diesel, but not 1/3 of services as Aberdeen & Inverness services see several sets spend a long time away from London.
Grand Central: All diesel into kings Cross
First Hull Trains: All diesel into Kings Cross

Thameslink Great Northern, Southeast Trains and c2c operate 100% electric railways, whilst Greater Anglia operate only electrics into Liverpool Street (their diesel fleet is entirely on the rural routes).

A case could be made for trialling it at Paddington, Marylebone & Kings Cross. It would have to be balanced against any start-up emissions
 

59CosG95

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Diesel traction into London terminals is mainly a minority. There is 9with weekday off peak frequency for some):
Southern: Uckfield services into London Bridge (1tph)
South West Trains: Exeter/Salisbury into Waterloo (2tph)
First Great Western: Paddington, extensive, to be hugely reduced by Crossrail and GW Electrification.
Chiltern: All services into Marylebone (plus 1tpd into Paddington)
Virgin Trains West Coast: some Euston services operated by Voyagers.
East Midlands Trains: All St Pancras services
Virgin Trains East Coast: into Kings Cross about 1/3 of the fleet is diesel, but not 1/3 of services as Aberdeen & Inverness services see several sets spend a long time away from London.
Grand Central: All diesel into kings Cross
First Hull Trains: All diesel into Kings Cross

Thameslink Great Northern, Southeast Trains and c2c operate 100% electric railways, whilst Greater Anglia operate only electrics into Liverpool Street (their diesel fleet is entirely on the rural routes).

A case could be made for trialling it at Paddington, Marylebone & Kings Cross. It would have to be balanced against any start-up emissions
Could make for some interesting cold starts in Paddington and the Cross!
 

Kentish Paul

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Could make for some interesting cold starts in Paddington and the Cross!

At Paddington the HST power car next to the buffers is shut down upon arrival. It restarts about 5 mins before departure. Not sure about Kings Cross but i think they do the same.
 

D365

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Once the Class 800 'IEP' fleet is in service almost all trains into Kings Cross and Paddington will be electric. If/when Hull electrification goes ahead FHT will too procure an electric fleet of some description, which should leave only residual HSTs on GW and GC's 180s running 'under the wires'.

Update: New FGW direct award franchise announced today: news that along with the suburban fleet deployment, they will finance a fleet of 'Super-IEPs' (enhanced diesel capability) to replace the remaining HSTs running to Devon/Cornwall by 2018!
 
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jopsuk

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so, basically a non-issue? Think I've seen Turbos starting at Paddington too. Do Chiltern shutdown?
 

route:oxford

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so, basically a non-issue? Think I've seen Turbos starting at Paddington too. Do Chiltern shutdown?

Chiltern spent £lots on rebuilding DVTs with a generator for hotel services in order that the loco engine could be shut down for stabling/layovers.

In Oxford vehicle drivers have risked fines for nearly 7 years...

http://www.oxfordtimes.co.uk/news/2231691.crackdown_starts_on_idling_engines/

Oddly, for the purposes of the railway, there is a bit of a conflict...

Residents of multi-million £ homes in Labour voting Jericho are looking forward to the switch to electrification as it will cut down the early morning noise of HST and Turbos powering up.

In North Oxford, the Liberal Democrats are campaigning against the electrification of the railway through Oxford as the knitting wont be pretty. Some are even demanding that the line through Oxford is undertaken by way of 3rd-rail electrification.
 

Deepgreen

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Fully support turning off idling loco/unit engines for turn-rounds of more than, say, ten minutes, but I got on the 2034 Redhill to Reading train at Redhill the other night and the engines were off - but so, too, were all the lights! We sat there in darkness for over ten minutes before the engines were started and the lights came on! I had assumed that at least some of the lighting could be on with the engines off?
 

PaulLothian

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London motorists are to be fined for idling engines too long and this will apply to buses and taxis also.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-31989916

As far as road vehicles are concerned, not exactly new news!

Vehicle idling is an offence against the Road Traffic (Vehicle Emissions) (Fixed Penalty) (England) Regulations 2002. The law states that is an offence to idle your engine unnecessarily when stationary. If you fail to turn your engine off after being spoken to you may be issued with a fixed penalty notice of £20.

Having said this, I would be interested to know how many drivers have been given fixed penalty notices across the UK.
 

RPM

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Chiltern have an instruction at Marylebone that all DMU engines must be shut down on arrival, unless the train is going straight back out again. Engines should not be restarted more than ten minutes prior to departure time.

This policy was brought in as a response to noise abatement issues rather than environmental ones.

The down sides are that passengers sometimes have to board trains that are unlit or only partially lit as the lights go off or revert to emergency shortly after the engines are shut down. Heating and air conditioning is also lost so passengers often have to board trains that are too hot or cold. In summer the lack of continuity with the air conditioning sometimes allows the saloon temperature to rise to above what the system can cope with once it is restarted, leading to air-con failure in that vehicle.

Similarly it takes several hours of running under power to get sufficient heat into a train so these enforced engine shut downs can result in trains that spend the first hour or two of their workings with sub-optimal saloon temperatures.
 

Llama

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Re. the post about the lights being off until engines started:

Sounds like the auxiliary batteries are knackered. Some will hold enough charge to keep lighting running for hours, some just minutes. When the 24v auxiliary battery voltage drops (usually to 22.5v) then a relay operates and opens the circuit to save over-discharging the batteries which would damage them.
 
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Rugd1022

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DBS 66s are having stop/start technology fitted
Dear Lord I hope our FLHH ones don't end up with this - I don't fancy freezing my 'aris off in the middle of Bescot Yard or on a ballast job that happens to be alongside someone's house... 66 cabs can be very, very cold, even on a Summer's night. In the past I've warmed up cabs using the cooker ring but we've been instructed not to do that anymore.
 
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RPM

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Yes on 165 it depends on the state of the aux batteries. 168s revert to emergency lighting regardless of battery state.
 

40129

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IIRC the ability of DMU engines to switch off after 10-15 mins idling is not particularly new. I seem to re-call an article in either Modern Railways or Rail Enthusiast praising prototype railbus 140001 for doing just that - the author added "DMU drivers in Newton Le Willows down loop please take note."

it has definitely been widespread on new build DMUs since the cl.150s were introduced in the mid-1980s - sitting in a pitch black train at Westbury (Salop) was not a pleasant experience. Thankfully cl.170s do at least retain some level of lighting once the engine switches off.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Yes on 165 it depends on the state of the aux batteries. 168s revert to emergency lighting regardless of battery state.

Surely there's a case here for power points every so often along terminal platforms, so units can be "plugged in" for hotel power?
 

RPM

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Surely there's a case here for power points every so often along terminal platforms, so units can be "plugged in" for hotel power?

That's a lot of extra expense and a lot of extra work for station staff. You'd need "not to be moved" boards to be placed on each train that was plugged in and protocols for ensuring trains are plugged/unplugged as required. You'd have to employ extra people to do it. I can't see it being practical for a busy commuter station like Marylebone.
 

Jamesb1974

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In the past I've warmed up cabs using the cooker ring but we've been instructed not to do that anymore.

AKA the helmet melting device. Just the right size and shape to rest your hard hat in. Make sure it's off first though..:(
 

Bletchleyite

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Yet another attack on the motorist and another means of revenue generation. Don't Westminster get enough from the congestion charge!?

The purpose isn't revenue earning. The purpose is to make you turn your engine off when your vehicle is standing, and thereby reduce pollution. The most effective fine of that kind is one that is never levied, just as the best speed camera is the one that brings in no income because it's stopped the speeding completely.

I'd imagine, though, give it 10-15 years for new cars to filter through the market and near enough all vehicles will have stop-start technology. It's an easy thing to implement.
 

Rugd1022

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AKA the helmet melting device. Just the right size and shape to rest your hard hat in. Make sure it's off first though..:(

Been there, done that, t-shirt in the wash etc ;)

Wasted a pair of work boots resting on the cooker of a 47 many years ago.... zzzzz... sniff, sniff... oops!
 
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What, like the ones fGW does all the time? The barrier end power car is only started shortly before departure.

That isn't a 'cold' start though.

In fact, power cars have a pre-heater (powered by shore supply) and the engine will not start if the coolant temperature is less than 40 degrees centigrade. There is an overide but you need authorisation from MTU and if it's used to often it will void the warrant.

It probably takes about 8 hours for a power car to drop bellow 40 degrees from traffic so any rest time it has in the station will certainly not result in it going cold.
 

brianthegiant

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Yet another attack on the motorist and another means of revenue generation. Don't Westminster get enough from the congestion charge!?

Do you seriously think the £20 penalty tickets are going to cover all the costs of employing the wardens in central London, bank charges, admin especially with the numerous appeals. It probably barely breaks even.

One reason is that too many of our kids are growing up with asthma due to airborne pollution.

Is it really such an inconvenience to turn an engine off?
 

syorksdeano

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I certainly hope that they don't bring this in for trains......Northern Rail will be cancelling trains left right and centre because half the fleet probably wouldn't restart
 
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