Plaid Cymru: We'd electrify all the main Welsh lines

merlodlliw · 7 Apr 2015

This article a few days old, came as an eye opener to me, I hope Plaid get to grips with it, as yet it appears no comment from them.

"Written by Steve Bagnall,Daily Post reporter, 29th March
The disappearance of North Wales from a European funding map has raised fears that the region could miss out on millions of pounds of investment in the transport network."

The European Commissions main transport funding programmes - TEN-T (Trans European Network - Transport) and the Core Corridor Network - provide billions to improve the continents main transport links and boost economies.

However, North Wales now appears to have disappeared off an official European Commission map which shows which routes are included as a priority.

Although the Welsh Government insisted Wales is still part of TEN-T, the European Commission said it is no longer a part of the Core Corridor Network, which will restrict access to funding, although it could still apply for money under another scheme - the Connecting Europe Facility.

Calling for clarity, North Wales AM Aled Robert believes Wales was removed from the key transport route map earlier this year and wants to know where the country now stands.

He is concerned that if Wales is no longer considered a key part of what the Commission defines as the North Sea-Mediterranean Core Network Corridor, it could jeopardise the push for the rail electrification of North Wales and future improvements to the A55.

Mr Roberts said: The Welsh Government has always said Wales was included under the European Commission Core Network, which is the second tier of funding.

However, I can now find no reference at all to Wales and North Wales being included, although the likes of Liverpool and Manchester and Dublin are.

I understand there may have been a policy change in the European Commission and Wales has been left out at the moment.

If North Wales is no longer in this, then I fear it may jeopardise the electrification of the North Wales rail line and improvements to the A55.

A Welsh Government spokeswoman said: Both the A55 and the North Wales Main Line are part of the TEN-T Core Network.

The standards set down by the European TEN-T regulations require the electrification of Core Network routes.

A statement by the European Commission said: Wales is not part of the alignment of the North Sea Mediterranean Core Network Corridor.

On Friday, Edwina Hart, Welsh Government minister for economy, science and transport, said she would be submitting the business case for the electrification of the North Wales Coast Mainline to the UK Government Department for Transport.

Mr Roberts said: What we need now is clarification of exactly what the situation is.

The Welsh Governments case for North Wales electrification is being put to the UK Government, but we need to know if that is going to be dependent on European funding.

I want to know if the Welsh and UK Governments are going to make representations to ensure North Wales will be included in the programme for funding.

RailUK Forums

LNW-GW Joint · 7 Apr 2015

Bob, here is a DfT list of projects which have received funding from the TEN-T process (dated 2012).
Most of it is a small fraction of the project cost (and mainly for feasibility studies, where the highest proportion of funds is available).
The best you seem to get out of the system is in the tens of millions (eg for HS1), and often much less.
It does not seem like a large pot of gold.
The West Coast upgrade got £50m for instance, of its £8 billion cost. NW electrification got £5m.
A5117 improvements on Deeside got £4m and Manchester Airport P3 got £1.6m.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/trans-european-network-transport-ten-t-programme
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...chment_data/file/138382/ten-t-awards-list.pdf

I think HMG is lukewarm about TEN-T.
It quite likes the extra funding, but not the European interference that goes with it.
I think the policy is that if a UK project is committed, they will claim what is possible from the EU.
However, just because a line is on an EU list doesn't mean it must be funded.
It's certainly not true that the EU requires the UK to electrify Crewe-Holyhead.

PS: The upcoming resignalling and upgrade in North Wales might qualify for EU support.

D60 · 7 Apr 2015

merlodlliw said:
This article a few days old, came as an eye opener to me, I hope Plaid get to grips with it, as yet it appears no comment from them.

Brilliant

Can't copy and paste the Daily Post article quoted here, but it reveals much more about how virtually all areas of policy are now determined for the UK than is usually the case with a 'news' media that prefers to maintain the charade..

Lest anyone was still misguided enough (during this pantomime of an election campaign) to think that UK govt(s) were still in ultimately meaningful control of transport policy in our now dis-United Kingdom, especially as it relates to 'our' railways.. Or that the charade as perpetuated at Westminster (or Cardiff..) by all those with vested interests to maintain, ultimately bears much relation to actual outcomes..

Xenophon PCDGS · 7 Apr 2015

Was it not once purported quite some years ago that the electrification of the North Wales Coast Line as part of a transport route to Eire, another E C country, was a part of the E C ensurance that the peripheral transport links to such areas of the north-west of the E C were seen to be prioritised in order to aid with the development of those areas.

D60 · 7 Apr 2015

Paul Sidorczuk said:
Was it not once purported quite some years ago that the electrification of the North Wales Coast Line as part of a transport route to Eire, another E C country, was a part of the E C ensurance that the peripheral transport links to such areas of the north-west of the E C were seen to be prioritised in order to aid with the development of those areas.

Yes..

LNW-GW Joint · 7 Apr 2015

Paul Sidorczuk said:
Was it not once purported quite some years ago that the electrification of the North Wales Coast Line as part of a transport route to Eire, another E C country, was a part of the E C ensurance that the peripheral transport links to such areas of the north-west of the E C were seen to be prioritised in order to aid with the development of those areas.

Yes, but it's important to note that it is transport corridors, not necessarily just rail.
The port and road connections have had plenty of EU-supported investment - the A55 across Anglesey for instance.
I think the funding is also skewed towards freight links.
Holyhead-Dublin has no rail freight, not since the traffic was diverted via Liverpool.

merlodlliw · 7 Apr 2015

D60 said:
Brilliant

Can't copy and paste the Daily Post article quoted here, but it reveals much more about how virtually all areas of policy are now determined for the UK than is usually the case with a 'news' media that prefers to maintain the charade..

Lest anyone was still misguided enough (during this pantomime of an election campaign) to think that UK govt(s) were still in ultimately meaningful control of transport policy in our now dis-United Kingdom, especially as it relates to 'our' railways.. Or that the charade as perpetuated at Westminster (or Cardiff..) by all those with vested interests to maintain, ultimately bears much relation to actual outcomes..

Heres the link to the Daily Post E Edition article.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/north-wales-left-out-european-8936687

plastictaffy · 7 Apr 2015

Envoy said:
Cardiff & Bristol which are in difficult to reach out of the way locations).

Cardiff airport?? Don't you mean "tucked away the other side of Cardiff in the arse-end of nowhere airport"??

Xenophon PCDGS · 7 Apr 2015

plastictaffy said:
Cardiff airport?? Don't you mean "tucked away the other side of Cardiff in the arse-end of nowhere airport"??

Is what you say in parenthesis above the fully detailed English translation of the word "Rhoose"...

hock:

Mutant Lemming · 7 Apr 2015

If it's the Welsh MAIN lines then surely that just means Severn Tunnel Junction to Cardiff and that's it..

St Rollox · 8 Apr 2015

LNW-GW Joint said:
Only by picking the UK government's pocket for another £1.2 billion a year.
All part of the victim culture in Cardiff (and Edinburgh).
I wonder how they'll cope with their portion of Network Rail's debt?

Once the SNP take control of the British Government in May Labour will sort out any debt owed by Scotland.

HSTEd · 8 Apr 2015

Its horrendously off topic, but the SNP can't 'control' a British Government led by Labour.

The only way they can exert influence is by threatening to force a defeat on a confidence measure - but by doing so they would inevitably be voting to usher in a Conservative Government.

How do you think the SNP voting to bring down the Labour Government and usher in a Tory one would go down with the Scottish electorate?

Blamethrower · 8 Apr 2015

Llanigraham said:
Somewhat off-topic, but I don't follow your logic. Hydro schemes can be built without any effect on tourism, as has been proven in the Elan Valley.

Absolutely, they are one of the most environmentally friendly ways of producing electricity. Hasn't destroyed Switzerland and the last time I checked dinorwic and tanygrisiau weren't 'destroying the landscape' either.

Nothing like a panicking environmentalist throwing in their opinion as if it's some kind of valid criticism

pablo · 8 Apr 2015

Re: the Seven Barrage idea. There have been many proposals but they never stack up economically (intra alia) because you need another station to generate in the slacks.

Unless you want to run your trains only when the tide is running. :idea:

HSTEd · 8 Apr 2015

The Seven barrage also has important flood control implications which I believe trump its marginally useful power generation capability.

It can be used to manipulate the level of the water behind it from anywhere between slightly above the high tide mark to slightly above the low tide mark. Although exercising the full range of this capability prevents significant power generation.

D60 · 8 Apr 2015

Blamethrower said:
Absolutely, they are one of the most environmentally friendly ways of producing electricity. Hasn't destroyed Switzerland and the last time I checked dinorwic and tanygrisiau weren't 'destroying the landscape' either.

Nothing like a panicking environmentalist throwing in their opinion as if it's some kind of valid criticism

Dinorwic and Tanygrisiau (correctly Ffestiniog) don't "produce" electricity, they were built to even out peaks and troughs in demand, being "pump storage schemes" which let water down through the turbines during the daytime peaks, and then pump it back up again overnight..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

HSTEd said:
The Seven barrage also has important flood control implications which I believe trump its marginally useful power generation capability.

It can be used to manipulate the level of the water behind it from anywhere between slightly above the high tide mark to slightly above the low tide mark. Although exercising the full range of this capability prevents significant power generation.

Not sure if I understand.. not being terribly clued up on the details and implications of any Severn Barrage scheme...

Would such a barrage be creating a lagoon behind it? Or would the Severn Estuary remain fully tidal as now? And what impacts would there be on natural habitats? I have seen it suggested that the "re-wilding" (ie flooding) of the Somerset Levels arising from deliberately allowing the drainage channels to silt up, was in fact a "mitigation" measure ahead of any potential barrier/lagoon, without previously informing the people who live and work on the Levels... This of course may be cobblers, as well as being even more off-topic than anything that has preceded it..

SpacePhoenix · 8 Apr 2015

Assuming Plaid Cymru did pay for it realistically how long would it take to electrify with overhead every line in Wales?

Mugby · 8 Apr 2015

I somehow don't think Plaid Cymru will be in a position to exert much influence after the election!

thealexweb · 8 Apr 2015

Mugby said:
I somehow don't think Plaid Cymru will be in a position to exert much influence after the election!

This is spot on. See here for a politically neutral analysis of the current polling data http://electionforecast.co.uk/.

HSTEd · 8 Apr 2015

D60 said:
Not sure if I understand.. not being terribly clued up on the details and implications of any Severn Barrage scheme...

Would such a barrage be creating a lagoon behind it? Or would the Severn Estuary remain fully tidal as now? And what impacts would there be on natural habitats?

You can make it be fully tidal or totally non tidal by manipulating the opening times of the barrage turbines/sluices.
This would obviously have impacts for intertidal habitats - however those habitats are going to be doomed by sea level rise anyway.

If you use it to hold the sea level as low as possible then the estuary would slowly become brackish - especially if you build the largest considered Ilframcombe-Gower barrage.
That would wipe out intertidal habitats by leaving them dry, but obviously that would gain significant marshy habitats that would replace them. (You would also be able to reclaim large amounts of land)

Any barrage schemes are going to destroy the current habitat - but a different habitat will replace it, and it may or may not be worse off overall.

TheKnightWho · 8 Apr 2015

D60 said:
Brilliant

Can't copy and paste the Daily Post article quoted here, but it reveals much more about how virtually all areas of policy are now determined for the UK than is usually the case with a 'news' media that prefers to maintain the charade..

Lest anyone was still misguided enough (during this pantomime of an election campaign) to think that UK govt(s) were still in ultimately meaningful control of transport policy in our now dis-United Kingdom, especially as it relates to 'our' railways.. Or that the charade as perpetuated at Westminster (or Cardiff..) by all those with vested interests to maintain, ultimately bears much relation to actual outcomes..

Pretty sure the EU has to have its own jurisdiction to decide where its own funding goes :roll: Some of the conspiracies on here...

Xenophon PCDGS · 9 Apr 2015

HSTEd said:
You can make it be fully tidal or totally non tidal by manipulating the opening times of the barrage turbines/sluices.
This would obviously have impacts for intertidal habitats - however those habitats are going to be doomed by sea level rise anyway.

If you use it to hold the sea level as low as possible then the estuary would slowly become brackish - especially if you build the largest considered Ilframcombe-Gower barrage. That would wipe out intertidal habitats by leaving them dry, but obviously that would gain significant marshy habitats that would replace them. (You would also be able to reclaim large amounts of land). Any barrage schemes are going to destroy the current habitat - but a different habitat will replace it, and it may or may not be worse off overall.

One matter that was in the news in recent years is that of the Somerset Levels which by its very nature is prone to the natural effects of water. I am sure that when any such barrage discussion is made at high level sources, that particular area will always be shown to be very high on the agenda.

merlodlliw · 9 Apr 2015

TheKnightWho said:
Pretty sure the EU has to have its own jurisdiction to decide where its own funding goes :roll: Some of the conspiracies on here...

The Welsh European Funding Office(WEFO) is part of Welsh Government and manages the delivery of EU Structural funds in Wales.

rf_ioliver · 9 Apr 2015

thealexweb said:
This is spot on. See here for a politically neutral analysis of the current polling data http://electionforecast.co.uk/.

Depends, at a UK level, no, but then again neither have the SNP (until this election) or even the Liberal Democrats (given their current performance and being in government). However SNP has moved into a position of "King Maker" when it comes to a hung parliament. Though given the current media, you'd be forgiven if the election was between them and UKIP only.

Plaid Cymru have explicitly stated their focus is only Wales; Leanne Wood is not standing for an MP in the UK elections (neither is Nicola Sturgeon either IIRC).

The Welsh Assembly, which is constructed differently than Westminster in terms of representation, given a more equal distribution of influence to each of the four parties there at the moment. PC will have and has quite a bit of influence at the Welsh government level, which in turn has influence at the Welsh Office (Westminster) level. The politics of Wales are more consensus based than Westminster where a minority of the electorate can vote in a majority of the government.

If it turns out to be a Lab+SNP pact after the next election you can probably expect PC and maybe the Green Party joining to bolster the government's majority. Let's there, there are a number of interesting permutations given the current predictions.

Ian

TheKnightWho · 9 Apr 2015

merlodlliw said:
The Welsh European Funding Office(WEFO) is part of Welsh Government and manages the delivery of EU Structural funds in Wales.

I don't disagree. I'm saying that looking at where European funding is going and making out like it's some big conspiracy to rule the UK from Brussels is madness.

Gareth Marston · 9 Apr 2015

rf_ioliver said:
Depends, at a UK level, no, but then again neither have the SNP (until this election) or even the Liberal Democrats (given their current performance and being in government). However SNP has moved into a position of "King Maker" when it comes to a hung parliament. Though given the current media, you'd be forgiven if the election was between them and UKIP only.

Plaid Cymru have explicitly stated their focus is only Wales; Leanne Wood is not standing for an MP in the UK elections (neither is Nicola Sturgeon either IIRC).

The Welsh Assembly, which is constructed differently than Westminster in terms of representation, given a more equal distribution of influence to each of the four parties there at the moment. PC will have and has quite a bit of influence at the Welsh government level, which in turn has influence at the Welsh Office (Westminster) level. The politics of Wales are more consensus based than Westminster where a minority of the electorate can vote in a majority of the government.

If it turns out to be a Lab+SNP pact after the next election you can probably expect PC and maybe the Green Party joining to bolster the government's majority. Let's there, there are a number of interesting permutations given the current predictions.

Ian

Given Plaid actually has an investment plan for rail not just sound bites about naughty TOC's and reigning back HS2 we should maybe be thankful.

Greenback · 10 Apr 2015

Gareth Marston said:
Given Plaid actually has an investment plan for rail not just sound bites about naughty TOC's and reigning back HS2 we should maybe be thankful.

Indeed. Having previously considered not voting Plaid, I've now changed my mind again. Maybe.

pemma · 10 Apr 2015

Mugby said:
I somehow don't think Plaid Cymru will be in a position to exert much influence after the election!

thealexweb said:
This is spot on. See here for a politically neutral analysis of the current polling data http://electionforecast.co.uk/.

Based on the forecasts it's possible that any of the below Coalitions/pacts could have just below the required 325 seats meaning a party with a small number of seats (UKIP, Greens, Plaid Cymru etc.) could make up the small shortfall:
* Conservatives + Lib Dems
* Labour + Lib Dems
* Labour + SNP
* Conservatives + DUP

(I'm presuming we won't see Labour+Conservatives, Conservatives+SNP or Labour+DUP.)

HSTEd · 10 Apr 2015

DUP will deal with anyone who gives them a big bung at this point.

MidlandMainlie · 10 Apr 2015

HSTEd said:
DUP will deal with anyone who gives them a big bung at this point.

One of the DUP's demands is scrapping if the bedroom tax which last time I looked was Labour policy but would be a major U turn for the Conservatives.

Plaid Cymru: We'd electrify all the main Welsh lines

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