Heart of Wales May 2015 Timetable

30907 · 13 Mar 2015

Gareth Marston said:
It's a snakes and ladders plan moral of story is if you want new /extra services get extra rolling stock!

Within existing resources, the only way to reinstate an 0830 arrival into SHR would be for the first Swansea to revert to roughly its old path, crossing the first down at Llandrindod.
This would mean the new early service running at least 40 earlier and crossing at Knighton, but would anyone actually use it then?
BTW Presumably the earlier timing into SHR from May is in response to requests for an additional service?

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PHILIPE · 13 Mar 2015

30907 said:
Within existing resources, the only way to reinstate an 0830 arrival into SHR would be for the first Swansea to revert to roughly its old path, crossing the first down at Llandrindod.
This would mean the new early service running at least 40 earlier and crossing at Knighton, but would anyone actually use it then?
BTW Presumably the earlier timing into SHR from May is in response to requests for an additional service?

Difficult to run two trains so close together as they would both have to be in the same token section together to do so !!! The answer to your last sentence is in the thread.

30907 · 14 Mar 2015

PHILIPE said:
Difficult to run two trains so close together as they would both have to be in the same token section together to do so !!!

That's why I said the first one would have to run considerably earlier and cross the 0542 south at Knighton. Or the 0542 would have to wait for two successive northbounds!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

PHILIPE said:
The answer to your last sentence is in the thread.

I can only see a reference to wanting more trains in general, not an earlier arrival at SHR in particular. Obviously there is a diagramming issue as well.

PHILIPE · 14 Mar 2015

30907 said:
That's why I said the first one would have to run considerably earlier and cross the 0542 south at Knighton. Or the 0542 would have to wait for two successive northbounds!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can only see a reference to wanting more trains in general, not an earlier arrival at SHR in particular. Obviously there is a diagramming issue as well.

See Post #6

30907 · 14 Mar 2015

Sorry, I assumed that was simply for the diagramming reasons I referred to (ie the only spare set was the Crewe one).
Are you saying there was a request for a Llandrindod -Crewe with arrivsl by 0900?

PHILIPE · 15 Mar 2015

30907 said:
Sorry, I assumed that was simply for the diagramming reasons I referred to (ie the only spare set was the Crewe one).
Are you saying there was a request for a Llandrindod -Crewe with arrivsl by 0900?

No. Required to form 08 00 Salop to Crewe without changing the time. See Post ~37

craigybagel · 15 Mar 2015

At the moment, the set that forms the Shrewsbury-Crewe local for the day spends the previous night at Shrewsbury, having arrived on the last Heart of Wales. The plan seems to be that this set will do an extra trip to llandrindod and back first every morning. The current first heart of wales departure which uses the 153 off the previous days Crewe-Shrewsbury locals which arrives from Crewe ecs in the early hours of the morning will now run slightly later (presumably the ECS will still run at the same time as it also contains the unit for the first Chester service from Shrewsbury, and the driver for the first Birmingham (which run at 0520 and 0518 respectively)).

berneyarms · 15 Mar 2015

craigybagel said:
At the moment, the set that forms the Shrewsbury-Crewe local for the day spends the previous night at Shrewsbury, having arrived on the last Heart of Wales. The plan seems to be that this set will do an extra trip to llandrindod and back first every morning. The current first heart of wales departure which uses the 153 off the previous days Crewe-Shrewsbury locals which arrives from Crewe ecs in the early hours of the morning will now run slightly later (presumably the ECS will still run at the same time as it also contains the unit for the first Chester service from Shrewsbury, and the driver for the first Birmingham (which run at 0520 and 0518 respectively)).

That's correct.

Looking through Realtime trains, it would appear that the allocations for the HOWL are as follows:

1 set will operate:
04:45 Shrewsbury-Llandrindod
06:18 Llandrindod-Crewe
09:14 Crewe-Swansea
14:35 Swansea-Crewe

A second set will operate:
04:05 Crewe-Shrewsbury (ECS)
05:42 Shrewsbury-Cardiff
11:14 Cardiff-Llanelli
12:45 Llanelli-Cardiff

A third set will operate:
06:03 Swansea-Crewe
11:20, 13:15 and 15:22 Crewe-Shrewsbury
12:24, 14:24 and 16:24 Shrewsbury-Crewe
17:20 Crewe-Cardiff Central

A fourth set will operate:
07:16 Cardiff-Swansea
09:33 Swansea-Shrewsbury
14:05 Shrewsbury-Swansea
18:21 Swansea-Shrewsbury

And the final set will operate:
04:53 Carmarthen-Llandovery
06:42 Llandovery-Swansea
08:14 Swansea-Fishguard
09:54 Fishguard-Carmarthen
10:58 Carmarthen-Pembroke Dock
13:09 Pembroke Dock-Swansea
16:00 Swansea-Pembroke Dock
19:19 Pembroke Dock-Tenby
20:00 Tenby-Pembroke Dock
20:30 Pembroke Dock-Swansea
23:45 Swansea-Fishguard Harbour
01:50 Fishguard Harbour-Swansea

This set will then (it would appear) operate the 05:45 Swansea-Pembroke Dock and then return to Swansea, before making two return trips to Pembroke Dock, then a trip to Carmarthen before finishing in Cardiff.

Jez · 15 Mar 2015

Thanks, thats the info i was looking for re how the diagrams would change when i posted a few days ago.

Im guessing diagrams 1, 2 and 4 you mention above will be 153s and the other 2 diagrams 150s?

sludge7 · 17 Mar 2015

swcovas said:
Not sure I agree with you about the "hideousness" of the new tt. Not ideal by any means but a bit of an improvement on the current tt.

All relative depending on what you use it for! At the moment, I can get the 19:14 from Ffairfach up which is getting me into Shrews at a reasonable enough time to catch a connection onwards to Wolverhampton getting me there for 22:55 -- so I can do a full day's work on Friday and spend Friday night at my boyfriend's house. Under the new schedule with that ridiculously long delay at Llanwrtyd for the cross, I won't get to Wolverhampton until 00:17...

And the other train we are losing is the early train -- if my boyfriend spends the weekend at mine, he can get the 5:24 up and be at Wolves for 9:10 and thus at his desk by 9:30. After the timetable change, the earliest he'll be able to get to Wolves on a Monday morning is 11:09, so he'll have to leave on Sunday afternoon instead.

I do realise we're only two people, but those are the two trains that we've been using regularly for several years now...

merlodlliw · 18 Mar 2015

sludge7 said:
All relative depending on what you use it for! At the moment, I can get the 19:14 from Ffairfach up which is getting me into Shrews at a reasonable enough time to catch a connection onwards to Wolverhampton getting me there for 22:55 -- so I can do a full day's work on Friday and spend Friday night at my boyfriend's house. Under the new schedule with that ridiculously long delay at Llanwrtyd for the cross, I won't get to Wolverhampton until 00:17...

And the other train we are losing is the early train -- if my boyfriend spends the weekend at mine, he can get the 5:24 up and be at Wolves for 9:10 and thus at his desk by 9:30. After the timetable change, the earliest he'll be able to get to Wolves on a Monday morning is 11:09, so he'll have to leave on Sunday afternoon instead.

I do realise we're only two people, but those are the two trains that we've been using regularly for several years now...

The problem is,ATW did no consultation about timings,I am afraid its all set in stone now due to consultation about the line only being sent out to stakeholders a short time ago,that closed on March 13th, and had already being agreed by Network Rail before stakeholders even knew about the change in timings.

swcovas · 18 Mar 2015

sludge7 said:
All relative depending on what you use it for! At the moment, I can get the 19:14 from Ffairfach up which is getting me into Shrews at a reasonable enough time to catch a connection onwards to Wolverhampton getting me there for 22:55 -- so I can do a full day's work on Friday and spend Friday night at my boyfriend's house. Under the new schedule with that ridiculously long delay at Llanwrtyd for the cross, I won't get to Wolverhampton until 00:17...

And the other train we are losing is the early train -- if my boyfriend spends the weekend at mine, he can get the 5:24 up and be at Wolves for 9:10 and thus at his desk by 9:30. After the timetable change, the earliest he'll be able to get to Wolves on a Monday morning is 11:09, so he'll have to leave on Sunday afternoon instead.

I do realise we're only two people, but those are the two trains that we've been using regularly for several years now...

Yes, of course, as you say, all relative. I have also been grateful of that early morning train on a about half a dozen occasions to get from Llandeilo to Liverpool airport but I have been the only one on the train as far as Builth on most occasions. Balance that against the new tt which will give an arrival in Swansea just after 0800 and another at just after 1000 which should prove useful for people wanting a day out in Swansea and were put off with the previous first arrival at 0905. Prior to the recast off the tt 20 odd years ago there was a popular arrival in Swansea at about 1015.

Through journey times, however seem to be going backward to steam days. Back in the 80s (nearly) all trains did the journey in less than 4 hours with a few as fast as 3h 36m. I personally can't really understand why there are such long waits on some (some are understandable) of the journeys with that last up train now taking four and a half hours for the complete journey.

With a journey of 120 miles, relatively few crossing loops, a necessity to fit in with movements on the South Wales main line and the Marches line, lack of rolling stock etc it is always going to be extremely difficult to cater for the needs of everyone along the route. As I say, far from ideal but I do think there are some improvements and I hope more will materialise after (yet again!!) another study now being undertaken.

Realise now after looking at the tts that the last down now runs about 20 mins earlier because runs as the 1720 ex Crewe hence the excessive waits at Llanwrtyd and Llandod for the last up. I presume the equivalent last up can't run any earlier because it is formed from the 1405 ex Salop which arrives Swansea at 1817. Or not?

PHILIPE · 18 Mar 2015

The reason for the long waits is because the "unevenness" of the crossing points. It's difficult to time to cross without one train waiting at one crossing point and then "matching" up at the next.

swcovas · 18 Mar 2015

PHILIPE said:
The reason for the long waits is because the "unevenness" of the crossing points. It's difficult to time to cross without one train waiting at one crossing point and then "matching" up at the next.

Yea, I realise that. I just posted an addition to my last post a couple of mins ago!

berneyarms · 18 Mar 2015

PHILIPE said:
The reason for the long waits is because the "unevenness" of the crossing points. It's difficult to time to cross without one train waiting at one crossing point and then "matching" up at the next.

But that is really because the trains are having to fit into the Shrewsbury/Crewe pattern, and then around trains on the Marches Line and South Wales mainline, which is causing them to arrive at the crossing points at different times.

traveller1 · 18 Mar 2015

swcovas said:
Yes, of course, as you say, all relative. I have also been grateful of that early morning train on a about half a dozen occasions to get from Llandeilo to Liverpool airport but I have been the only one on the train as far as Builth on most occasions. Balance that against the new tt which will give an arrival in Swansea just after 0800 and another at just after 1000 which should prove useful for people wanting a day out in Swansea and were put off with the previous first arrival at 0905. Prior to the recast off the tt 20 odd years ago there was a popular arrival in Swansea at about 1015.

Through journey times, however seem to be going backward to steam days. Back in the 80s (nearly) all trains did the journey in less than 4 hours with a few as fast as 3h 36m. I personally can't really understand why there are such long waits on some (some are understandable) of the journeys with that last up train now taking four and a half hours for the complete journey.

With a journey of 120 miles, relatively few crossing loops, a necessity to fit in with movements on the South Wales main line and the Marches line, lack of rolling stock etc it is always going to be extremely difficult to cater for the needs of everyone along the route. As I say, far from ideal but I do think there are some improvements and I hope more will materialise after (yet again!!) another study now being undertaken.

Realise now after looking at the tts that the last down now runs about 20 mins earlier because runs as the 1720 ex Crewe hence the excessive waits at Llanwrtyd and Llandod for the last up. I presume the equivalent last up can't run any earlier because it is formed from the 1405 ex Salop which arrives Swansea at 1817. Or not?

I wonder why the M-F timetable has not been extended to Saturdays, or am I wrong? If one of the reasons for amending is to attract commuters onto the shuttles at the end of the line at both ends, then commuters do also work on Saturdays, and so I wonder if there is a market for commuting times also for Saturdays?

sludge7 · 19 Mar 2015

merlodlliw said:
The problem is,ATW did no consultation about timings,I am afraid its all set in stone now due to consultation about the line only being sent out to stakeholders a short time ago,that closed on March 13th, and had already being agreed by Network Rail before stakeholders even knew about the change in timings.

Really? Then why have I been told by HOWL Forum that these times are still subject to change and that's why there isn't a published downloadable timetable available yet???!

PHILIPE · 19 Mar 2015

sludge7 said:
Really? Then why have I been told by HOWL Forum that these times are still subject to change and that's why there isn't a published downloadable timetable available yet???!

There rarely is a Timetable available to Download until approx. 6 weeks before commencement.

merlodlliw · 21 Mar 2015

PHILIPE said:
There rarely is a Timetable available to Download until approx. 6 weeks before commencement.

You are correct but due to current ATW form it will be a month before ATW publish the timetable themselves.

The comment "Subject to change" is always put out by ATW, consultation ended on the 13th March, but the timings have already been set in stone between ATW and Network Rail many weeks ago,the HOWL forum I understand had no consultation at all about timings, nor in fact anyone else.
A change of 30 minutes in my opinion should have been tested,but the HOWL forum as a cut off point on the Border with Shropshire.
I understand the correct timings are available on National Rail

swcovas · 23 Mar 2015

Interestingly whilst travelling on the HOWL in Feb I got chatting to the guard and couple of fellow passengers about the new tt. The guard told me that he and his colleagues reckoned that if the new morning service takes off then they will see an overcrowded 1821 in future. Bearing in mind your comments above maybe he has a point. Personally I wonder if the new early arrival may be a bit too early and the 1821 is still pretty late for commuters. I hope I am wrong on that count. I do think though that "new" mid morning arrivals in both Swansea and Salop should prove popular with day trippers/shoppers and it's a shame that they won't run on Saturdays.

This post was originally a reply to the "BBC X-Ray report on ATW" thread running on the UK Railway Discussion section but I thought it be worth posting here as well!

PHILIPE · 9 Apr 2015

Jez said:
Thanks, thats the info i was looking for re how the diagrams would change when i posted a few days ago.

Im guessing diagrams 1, 2 and 4 you mention above will be 153s and the other 2 diagrams 150s?

Still unanswered is how an additional 150 will get to Carmarthen. From RTT update, it appears the 150 off 18 04 ex Cardiff will attach at Swansea to 19 34 to Carmarthen instead of returning attached to Cardiff.
Much of the working you received can be worked out from RTT.

merlodlliw · 10 Apr 2015

PHILIPE said:
Still unanswered is how an additional 150 will get to Carmarthen. From RTT update, it appears the 150 off 18 04 ex Cardiff will attach at Swansea to 19 34 to Carmarthen instead of returning attached to Cardiff.
Much of the working you received can be worked out from RTT.

Out of interest an ATW Manager tells me, problems with NR still mean some trains are still not shown correctly, an example is the 0747 ex Wrexham,although running to Birmingham(confirmed) is shown terminating at Shrewsbury,this is the May timetable.

PHILIPE · 10 Apr 2015

merlodlliw said:
Out of interest an ATW Manager tells me, problems with NR still mean some trains are still not shown correctly, an example is the 0747 ex Wrexham,although running to Birmingham(confirmed) is shown terminating at Shrewsbury,this is the May timetable.

Journey Planner shows as through train when I checked this morning.

berneyarms · 10 Apr 2015

PHILIPE said:
Still unanswered is how an additional 150 will get to Carmarthen. From RTT update, it appears the 150 off 18 04 ex Cardiff will attach at Swansea to 19 34 to Carmarthen instead of returning attached to Cardiff.
Much of the working you received can be worked out from RTT.

To be fair Philipe, as I've learnt, many people don't have the patience to sit down and figure out diagrams themselves - it does take a certain mind set to sit down and do it!

RTT is a wonderful tool for people like me, but I think we do need to accept that most people won't have the patience to do that.

headshot119 · 10 Apr 2015

merlodlliw said:
Out of interest an ATW Manager tells me, problems with NR still mean some trains are still not shown correctly, an example is the 0747 ex Wrexham,although running to Birmingham(confirmed) is shown terminating at Shrewsbury,this is the May timetable.

If you look on RTT you'll see it's booked to Shrewsbury as 2J93 then attaches to 1G93 to go forward to Birmingham.

It's been shown like that on RTT for a long time.

PHILIPE · 10 Apr 2015

berneyarms said:
To be fair Philipe, as I've learnt, many people don't have the patience to sit down and figure out diagrams themselves - it does take a certain mind set to sit down and do it!

RTT is a wonderful tool for people like me, but I think we do need to accept that most people won't have the patience to do that.

Yes. You're right. The intention may not have come over fully, but it was meant to help by pointing in the direction of RTT.

merlodlliw · 11 Apr 2015

headshot119 said:
If you look on RTT you'll see it's booked to Shrewsbury as 2J93 then attaches to 1G93 to go forward to Birmingham.

It's been shown like that on RTT for a long time.

Its been changed in the last few days on National Rail and ATWs web site,probably triggered by me asking an ATW senior manager a week ago why it was shown terminated at Shrewsbury.

Bob

Jez · 12 Apr 2015

PHILIPE said:
Still unanswered is how an additional 150 will get to Carmarthen. From RTT update, it appears the 150 off 18 04 ex Cardiff will attach at Swansea to 19 34 to Carmarthen instead of returning attached to Cardiff.
Much of the working you received can be worked out from RTT.

That would make sense, I had forgotten about that 150 being attached to the 195x to Cardiff.

Its good that ATW have been able to introduce the extra HOW trains with no extra capacity, just by incorporating the Crewe locals with HOW at the North end and re doing a few diagrams at the South end.

traveller1 · 16 Apr 2015

new ATW pocket timetable 1 from 17th May - Swansea to Shrewsbury - now downloadable online.

High Dyke · 16 Apr 2015

traveller1 said:
new ATW pocket timetable 1 from 17th May - Swansea to Shrewsbury - now downloadable online.

(Timetable 1) Here: http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/timetables/

Heart of Wales May 2015 Timetable

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