No Welsh Trains to Manchester Airport (Now approved until December 2017)

berneyarms · 12 Apr 2015

fowler9 said:
I'll try and put it simply. Heathrow is one of the worlds major hubs for air travel. It has next to no direct rail links to most of the UK. Why does Wales and the corridor through Chester need frequent direct trains to Manchester Airport?

Perhaps, because Manchester Airport has a purpose built railway station in situ whereas Heathrow does not?

The airport should have decent direct services from across the north - I'm not advocating one line over another, but I think an opportunity is being missed here considering the train lies idle otherwise.
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jcollins said:
The point I was trying to make is Aer Lingus offer some destinations from Dublin, which are not available from Manchester and if you want to go indirectly you have to take the risk with two point-to-point tickets.

Although, sometimes it easier to not fly to the Airport nearest where you are staying. If you want to go to Florence from the north of England it's far easier to catch a direct flight to Pisa and to get the train/coach to Florence, then to go via London or Amsterdam.

Aer Lingus short haul is a low cost point-to-point operation - my inclusion of them was in relation to their interline service for their transatlantic operation.

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Xenophon PCDGS · 12 Apr 2015

edwin_m said:
If a western rail connection to the Airport goes ahead (a pretty big if in my view) I think it would be well north of Mobberley. The obvious route would be to tunnel westwards from the existing airport station and follow the M57 or the HS2 route planned to run alongside it, before turning south to join the Mid-Cheshire line near Ashley.

Would this impinge upon any part of the land of the Bollin Valley?

pemma · 12 Apr 2015

berneyarms said:
Perhaps, because Manchester Airport has a purpose built railway station in situ whereas Heathrow does not?

Correct. Heathrow has two purpose built stations, whereas Manchester just has the one, like Gatwick and Stansted do.

berneyarms · 12 Apr 2015

jcollins said:
Correct. Heathrow has two purpose built stations, whereas Manchester just has the one, like Gatwick and Stansted do.

I think you know exactly what I meant.

Manchester has a station purpose built to facilitate regional rail services. Heathrow does not.

fowler9 · 12 Apr 2015

berneyarms said:
Perhaps, because Manchester Airport has a purpose built railway station in situ whereas Heathrow does not?

The airport should have decent direct services from across the north - I'm not advocating one line over another, but I think an opportunity is being missed here considering the train lies idle otherwise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Aer Lingus short haul is a low cost point-to-point operation - my inclusion of them was in relation to their interline service for their transatlantic operation.

I see what you mean, and pathing constraints aside Wales should have a direct link. At the moment though who, in your opinion, should loose out? I am assuming the reason there isn't a direct ATW service is due to pathing constraints.

craigybagel · 12 Apr 2015

At the moment its seemingly more a lack of platform space. That will be fixed when platform 4 opens shortly, but there is a suggestion there won't be a path after 2017 when extra Northern services are expected to be sent to the airport, and/or ATW services are potentially diverted into Victoria.

edwin_m · 12 Apr 2015

berneyarms said:
I think you know exactly what I meant.

Manchester has a station purpose built to facilitate regional rail services. Heathrow does not.

But more regional rail services will use the existing Heathrow stations with the introduction of Crossrail and Western Rail Access.

I think the difference between Heathrow and Manchester's rail services is precisely down to the smaller number of passengers at Manchester.

Heathrow has enough passengers that the number to/from central London justfies a rail service in its own right. With fewer passengers, Manchester needs to get passengers to/from central Manchester and to/from many destinations across the region together to justify its train service.

pemma · 12 Apr 2015

The last 'South Manchester' recast was done in December 2008. The next one will be December 2017 (put back from December 2016 due to delays with electrification and the Ordsall Chord.) There were no plans for additional services to operate to the Airport start between the two recasts. Chester to Manchester Airport every hour was always an option but at the next recast.

The 4th platform at Manchester Airport was also due in time for the December 2016 timetable change but was delivered early: http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...-600m-rail-investment-in-the-north-of-england

Opportunistic ATW asked if they could operate additional services to the Airport with the 4th platform being ready early and Network Rail said no.

LNW-GW Joint · 12 Apr 2015

edwin_m said:
I think the difference between Heathrow and Manchester's rail services is precisely down to the smaller number of passengers at Manchester.

Partly it's down to design at Heathrow, and the fact that the branch and service is owned by the Airport rather than NR/TOC.
Heathrow and Stansted have dedicated frequent shuttle services, whereas Gatwick and Manchester don't.
It's a shame southern access at Manchester is so little used.
There is plenty of spare capacity via Styal and Wilmslow, but airport traffic from that direction is low.
I would like to see the passenger figures at the airport from various origins (rail and road).

Starmill · 12 Apr 2015

LNW-GW Joint said:
Heathrow and Stansted have dedicated frequent shuttle services, whereas Gatwick and Manchester don't.

Really?

pemma · 12 Apr 2015

starmill said:
Really?

Even Manchester Airport has a half-hourly stopper, which you could claim is a frequent local shuttle.

berneyarms · 12 Apr 2015

jcollins said:
The last 'South Manchester' recast was done in December 2008. The next one will be December 2017 (put back from December 2016 due to delays with electrification and the Ordsall Chord.) There were no plans for additional services to operate to the Airport start between the two recasts. Chester to Manchester Airport every hour was always an option but at the next recast.

The 4th platform at Manchester Airport was also due in time for the December 2016 timetable change but was delivered early: http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...-600m-rail-investment-in-the-north-of-england

Opportunistic ATW asked if they could operate additional services to the Airport with the 4th platform being ready early and Network Rail said no.

It does beg the question though - is the taxpayer getting an adequate return on their investment?

Whether the project was delivered early or not, is it right that it isn't then being properly utilised for another 6 or 18 months?

That really doesn't sound like they are to me.

snowball · 12 Apr 2015

As I have said in this thread (and in its predecessor), I believe the platform 4 works were accelerated to reduce interference with the adjacent Metrolink line which was being built at the same time. I imagine it would have cost a lot more to do it later, with major bridgeworks under Outwood Lane after the Metrolink line was in service.

Indeed I wish it could have been done even earlier, as I imagine it would have saved even more money to do the two sets of bridgeworks simultaneously, but platform 4 wasn't authorised in time.

It seems to me NR and other authorities can't win on this website. They're frequently berated for "lack of foresight" by people who want them to spend lots of extra money for little immediate benefit, now the opposite complaint is made when they finish something early.

berneyarms · 12 Apr 2015

snowball said:
As I have said in this thread (and in its predecessor), I believe the platform 4 works were accelerated to reduce interference with the adjacent Metrolink line which was being built at the same time. I imagine it would have cost a lot more to do it later, with major bridgeworks under Outwood Lane after the Metrolink line was in service.

Indeed I wish it could have been done even earlier, as I imagine it would have saved even more money to do the two sets of bridgeworks simultaneously, but platform 4 wasn't authorised in time.

It seems to me NR and other authorities can't win on this website. They're frequently berated for "lack of foresight" by people who want them to spend lots of extra money for little immediate benefit, now the opposite complaint is made when they finish something early.

I certainly am not complaining about them finishing the work early, that's to be applauded. But something should be done to then start using the asset productively in some shape or form, rather than leaving it sit there unused.

PHILIPE · 13 Apr 2015

The thread has hopelessly gone off topic and has already been split once.
None of the recent posts refer to Welsh Trains (or lack of them) to Manchester Airport.

yorkie · 13 Apr 2015

If anyone wishes to discuss other airports, or anything else, please create a new thread, thanks.

The button looks like this:-

The Stansted discussion has been moved to How is Stansted Airport viewed in terms of rail access from its catchment area?

PHILIPE said:
The thread has hopelessly gone off topic and has already been split once.
None of the recent posts refer to Welsh Trains (or lack of them) to Manchester Airport.

If this happens please use the report button (

) - as someone else has done - to alert us. Reporting the first such post along with providing a list of post numbers (or, simply "from post number x onwards" if applicable) would be useful to include in the report.

Splitting threads can be time consuming, so reports are best made early, and with as much information as possible.

Holly · 13 Apr 2015

edwin_m said:
If a western rail connection to the Airport goes ahead (a pretty big if in my view) I think it would be well north of Mobberley. The obvious route would be to tunnel westwards from the existing airport station and follow the M57 or the HS2 route planned to run alongside it, before turning south to join the Mid-Cheshire line near Ashley. A new station interchanging with the HS2 station between junctions 5 and 6 might improve the business case, although it might not be possible to provide one because of the relative positions of the rail routes and the complex road layout surrounding them.

Making it a cut and cover tunnel running alongside the runways would be cheaper than boring and reduce the amount of new land taken. Doing that would result in a junction well South of Mobberley station. Mobberley Station not to be confused with its namesake village or hamlet which is better served by Knutsford Station. Mobberley Station is irrelevant, which is probably just as well given the poor access to it.
http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=53.34...519;593090;424300;606823;433007;636005;439665

Xenophon PCDGS · 14 Apr 2015

Holly said:
Even more of the green fields in question were used when the Mid-Cheshire line was built in the first place. And a good thing too!
I doubt the citizens of Mobberley would dislike a faster rail service.

The matter of Mobberley and its railway station was mentioned in posting # 135....details as above.

merlodlliw · 14 Apr 2015

Paul Sidorczuk said:
The matter of Mobberley and its railway station was mentioned in posting # 135....details as above.

You burn the midnight oil Paul, hows your health any better. Mobberley is an interesting station along with a few others on the line.Last used it in First North Western days using the hired in loco hauled stock from Chester to Navigation Rd for a Charity meeting,the return was more a shock on the dreaded pacer.

Bob

pemma · 14 Apr 2015

merlodlliw said:
You burn the midnight oil Paul, hows your health any better. Mobberley is an interesting station along with a few others on the line.Last used it in First North Western days using the hired in loco hauled stock from Chester to Navigation Rd for a Charity meeting,the return was more a shock on the dreaded pacer.

The loco-hauled workings ran semi-fast so wouldn't have called at Mobberley.

In 2004 there were 142, 150, 158, 175 and loco-hauled working on the Mid-Cheshire line. All the 150s used had been recently refurbished, while the 142s and mk2 carriages had been refreshed (except the Merseytravel ones) and the 175s were obviously new. At the time it was probably the 158s that were looking most tired, even if they were more comfortable to ride than the 142s.

trev4b · 3 Jun 2015

jcollins said:
Service pattern revisions may not work unless the timetable is rewritten.

For instance, 20:32 Manchester Airport to Chester via Warrington works with a Piccadilly arrival at 20:48.

Trying to start the 16:50 Manchester Airport to Llandudno service at Manchester Airport at 16:32 wouldn't work due to the 16:33 Airport-Middlesbrough service, while an earlier departure time from the Airport could result in to train being held at a red signal until the 16:29 Airport-Blackpool (which stops at Heald Green) departs platform 14 at Piccadilly.

So for a proper Airport service to/from North Wales it could mean a full timetable rewrite is required.

On the original application for access, ATW had the following paths validated by NR.

Weekdays

1H83 07.45 Llandudno to Manchester Airport 10.15
1D35 10.37 Manchester Airport to Llandudno Junction

1H84 08.54 Llandudno Junction to Manchester Airport 11.15
1D36 11.37 Manchester Airport to Llandudno

1H85 09.45 Llandudno to Manchester Airport 12.15
1D37 12.37 Manchester Airport to Llandudno

1H86 10.44 Llandudno to Manchester Airport 13.15
1D38 13.37 Manchester Airport to Llandudno

1H87 11.44 Llandudno to Manchester Airport 14.15
1D39 14.37 Manchester Airport to Llandudno

1H88 12.53 Llandudno Junction to Manchester Airport 15.15
1D30 15.37 Manchester Airport to Llandudno

1H94 18.50 Chester to Manchester Airport 20.18
1D35 20.32 Manchester Airport to Chester

1H95 18.44 Llandudno to Manchester Airport 21.16
1D36 21.32 Manchester Airport to Chester

On Saturdays, the same service would run with the following additions.

1H82 06.34 Llandudno to Manchester Airport 09.15
1D34 09.37 Manchester Airport to Llandudno

1H89 13.31 Bangor to Manchester Airport 16.15
1D31 16.37 Manchester Airport to Llandudno

1H90 14.42 Llandudno to Manchester Airport 17.15
1D32 17.37 Manchester Airport to Llandudno

1H91 15.44 Llandudno to Manchester Airport 18.15
1D33 18.37 Manchester Airport to Chester

1H93 17.44 Llandudno to Manchester Airport 20.16
1D35 20.32 Manchester Airport to Chester

In addition, the 0854 and 1253 departures from Llandudno are retimed to depart at XX45.

PHILIPE · 11 Jun 2015

Refers to 20 32 Manchester Airport to Chester tonight

This train will be starting late from Manchester Airport and is expected to be 45 minutes late.
This is due to a problem currently under investigation.
Additional Information:
Platform congestion at Manchester Airport station, means this service is currently unable to depart on it's journey.
Another operator's train ahead (in the platform), had developed a fault and could not be moved clear earlier. This faulty train has been removed. - See more at: http://www.journeycheck.com/arrivatrainswales#sthash.K6uAyq8z.dpuf

gimmea50anyday · 13 Jun 2015

185 said:
Was looking at fares on the NWC and was quite surprised that from Manchester, they are generally double other similar mileage destinations. Watching the few ATW NWC trains that do go through to the airport, there are very few passengers currently using them.

Split the fare at picc!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The issue of airport services from wales is relatively new, as they only started going there wnen P3 opened a couple of years ago. Although the service makes use of the turnback time of the Llandudno-Manchester Picc service which has almost an hour to turn back, only a couple of services went through to the airport. The plan was to send all of them there but platform space was always at a premium when you consider there is currently 7 TPE and 4 NR services terminating or stopping there.

I would expect the services to be fully established once northern hub work is complete.

chiltern trev · 13 Jun 2015

I have relatives who live on the North Wales coast and within easy (less than 1.0 miles) of a railway station. When flying through Manchester Airport they always drive using the A55/M56. Quicker and easier with bags. And ususally it means one member of the family/relative who is not flying does the driving (i.e. the taxi job) which sometimes includes anti social hours for early morning and late flights so as to avoid hotel accommodation.

On the subject of infirm passengers, the more elderly relatives dont like changing trains even if same platform as at Manchester Piccadilly or Warrington BQ (when going north up the WCML).

pemma · 14 Jun 2015

chiltern trev said:
On the subject of infirm passengers, the more elderly relatives dont like changing trains even if same platform as at Manchester Piccadilly or Warrington BQ (when going north up the WCML).

Like I've said before if a change of train which doesn't involve walking between platforms is too much for certain people then I think using a large Airport like Manchester will be too much.

Xenophon PCDGS · 14 Jun 2015

jcollins said:
Like I've said before if a change of train which doesn't involve walking between platforms is too much for certain people then I think using a large Airport like Manchester will be too much.

There are ramped access routes and lifts from the railway station which are often used by elderly passengers moving to and from the airport.

pemma · 14 Jun 2015

Paul Sidorczuk said:
There are ramped access routes and lifts from the railway station which are often used by elderly passengers moving to and from the airport.

Yes but getting from the Airport station to the departure gates requires a lot more energy and effort than alighting a train and boarding another train from the same platform. The conductor/platform staff will put down a ramp if someone can't manage the step between the platform and the train.

edwin_m · 14 Jun 2015

jcollins said:
Yes but getting from the Airport station to the departure gates requires a lot more energy and effort than alighting a train and boarding another train from the same platform. The conductor/platform staff will put down a ramp if someone can't manage the step between the platform and the train.

Does the assistance provided for infirm passengers at the airport include getting them to and from the station?

pemma · 14 Jun 2015

edwin_m said:
Does the assistance provided for infirm passengers at the airport include getting them to and from the station?

According to the website passengers in wheelchairs requiring assistance should contact OCS via the blue courtesy phones provided at the entrance to the station and someone will assist you as far as the check-in desk. From that point it sounds like responsibility is passed on to the airline you're travelling with.

geoffk · 25 Oct 2015

Is there any more news on a direct ATW service to Manchester Airport, and is platform 4 at MIA now finally in use?

No Welsh Trains to Manchester Airport (Now approved until December 2017)

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