Cambrian hourly service consultation

mikestone1952 · 17 Apr 2015

ATW booklets now on line - the 06.46 Barmouth-Machynlleth is no longer advertised as through portion to International.
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It might be instructive if somebody counted the number of through passengers one day before it happens.
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On the subject of portions if my thoughts on diagrams are correct the 19.24 Salop-Chester is going to have to be the front set off the 18.09 from International which weirdly is 19.20 WTT into Shrewsbury but 19.19 advertised, making it a connection - however the 19.24 appears in the previous column in the booklet and journey planners don't offer it as a connection

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PHILIPE · 17 Apr 2015

Journey Planner and RTT still indicating through service, attaching at Machynlleth to Aberystwyth portion..

merlodlliw · 17 Apr 2015

PHILIPE said:
Journey Planner and RTT still indicating through service, attaching at Machynlleth to Aberystwyth portion..

sorry to say ATW timetable one, has a good few errors,

SprinterMan · 17 Apr 2015

merlodlliw said:
sorry to say ATW timetable one, has a good few errors,

Indeed it does, my personal favourite being this one. Apparently they are so happy that the 0747 Wrexham train has been saved that it is included twice....

Adam

PHILIPE · 17 Apr 2015

mikestone1952 said:
ATW booklets now on line - the 06.46 Barmouth-Machynlleth is no longer advertised as through portion to International.
;
It might be instructive if somebody counted the number of through passengers one day before it happens.
;
On the subject of portions if my thoughts on diagrams are correct the 19.24 Salop-Chester is going to have to be the front set off the 18.09 from International which weirdly is 19.20 WTT into Shrewsbury but 19.19 advertised, making it a connection - however the 19.24 appears in the previous column in the booklet and journey planners don't offer it as a connection

It could be advertised as a through portion but not advertised as such. But, as the WTT arrival time shows as 19 20 and, in view of the fact the minimum connectional time at Shrewsbury is 5 minutes, it's not shown as a connection even though formed off the 18 09. Computerised systems don't have flexibility, remember.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

PHILIPE said:
Journey Planner and RTT still indicating through service, attaching at Machynlleth to Aberystwyth portion..

There is something suspicious re this train from Barmouth joining up. Refer back to posts #1027, #1060, #1061 and #1090 re comments on it. May be able to deduce something further when platforming and stock movements at Shrewsbury appear up to date in RTT.

mikestone1952 · 18 Apr 2015

Precisely - surely journey planners work off the public times? As it appears in print as a five minute connection, what the WTT says or the order they appear in the booklet, is, or should be irrelevant.

PHILIPE · 18 Apr 2015

mikestone1952 said:
Precisely - surely journey planners work off the public times? As it appears in print as a five minute connection, what the WTT says or the order they appear in the booklet, is, or should be irrelevant.

I've just looked at Journey Planner and it is shown as a connection (19 19-1924).

Gareth Marston · 21 Apr 2015

Here's some more detail on the Cambrian diagrams, see e mail reproduced below. Albert is the secretary of a SARPA and Mike is Mike Vaughan head of ATW stakeholder engagement.

Good morning, Albert

I've just had the guys here to look at this and I can confirm that the pocket timetable is correct. This was necessary to enable the 0700 Shrewsbury to Wrexham and the 0747 Wrexham to Birmingham services to 'fit'. The 158 on the Barmouth on arrival at Machynlleth goes on to shed, and the 158 on the 0630 from Aberystwyth goes on to Abbey Foregate and then attaches to the 0730 Aberystwyth to Birmingham.

I hope this provides the answers you wanted.

Best wishes ... Mike

________________________________________________________________________

berneyarms · 21 Apr 2015

Gareth Marston said:
Here's some more detail on the Cambrian diagrams, see e mail reproduced below. Albert is the secretary of a SARPA and Mike is Mike Vaughan head of ATW stakeholder engagement.

Good morning, Albert

I've just had the guys here to look at this and I can confirm that the pocket timetable is correct. This was necessary to enable the 0700 Shrewsbury to Wrexham and the 0747 Wrexham to Birmingham services to 'fit'. The 158 on the Barmouth on arrival at Machynlleth goes on to shed, and the 158 on the 0630 from Aberystwyth goes on to Abbey Foregate and then attaches to the 0730 Aberystwyth to Birmingham.

I hope this provides the answers you wanted.

Best wishes ... Mike
________________________________________________________________________

That would make sense - that would be the additional set from the maintenance pool that is out for a round trip between Barmouth and Machynlleth to facilitate the Wrexham service.

Something had to give to facilitate it.

Hopefully the additional 06:30 and 08:30 from Aberystwyth will take some of the pressure off the service.

PHILIPE · 21 Apr 2015

Thanks for clearing that up, Gareth. As I guessed originally. Journey Planner still showing as through train.

Gareth Marston · 21 Apr 2015

berneyarms said:
That would make sense - that would be the additional set from the maintenance pool that is out for a round trip between Barmouth and Machynlleth to facilitate the Wrexham service.

Something had to give to facilitate it.

Hopefully the additional 06:30 and 08:30 from Aberystwyth will take some of the pressure off the service.

I fear the 0730 ex Aberystwyth could get panned some days it is usually the busiest train of the day.

berneyarms · 21 Apr 2015

Gareth Marston said:
I fear the 0730 ex Aberystwyth could get panned some days it is usually the busiest train of the day.

Yes, but that was before there was an additional train either side of it.

We'll have to wait and see.

I suspect that the two additional trains will take the heat off it.

Gareth Marston · 21 Apr 2015

berneyarms said:
Yes, but that was before there was an additional train either side of it.

We'll have to wait and see.

I suspect that the two additional trains will take the heat off it.

So the much vaunted enhanced service will only deliver 2 carriages of extra capacity in the UP direction before mid day.

berneyarms · 21 Apr 2015

Gareth Marston said:
So the much vaunted enhanced service will only deliver 2 carriages of extra capacity in the UP direction before mid day.

Were you expecting much additional capacity? And if so where was it going to come from. There's nothing to spare in the fleet.

What you have got is a better distribution of trains, and hopefully the loadings will spread out as well.

Effectively you will have along the Cambrian Mainline between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury:

05:30 ex-Aberystwth - Still 4 car
06:30 ex-Aberystwth - New service - 2 car
07:30 ex-Aberystwth - Reduced from 4 car to 2 car
08:30 ex-Aberystwth - New service - 2 car
09:30 ex-Aberystwth - Reduced from 6 car to 4 car
11:30 ex-Aberystwth - Still 4 car
12:30 ex-Aberystwth - New service - 2 car

Gareth Marston · 21 Apr 2015

berneyarms said:
Were you expecting much additional capacity? And if so where was it going to come from. There's nothing to spare in the fleet.

What you have got is a better distribution of trains, and hopefully the loadings will spread out as well.

Effectively you will have along the Cambrian Mainline between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury:

05:30 ex-Aberystwth - Still 4 car
06:30 ex-Aberystwth - New service - 2 car
07:30 ex-Aberystwth - Reduced from 4 car to 2 car
08:30 ex-Aberystwth - New service - 2 car
09:30 ex-Aberystwth - Reduced from 6 car to 4 car
11:30 ex-Aberystwth - Still 4 car
12:30 ex-Aberystwth - New service - 2 car

0530 ex Abr is two car and the 0930 ex Abr has not run as six for months.

When the leaked memo about the withdrawal of the 0747 from Wrexham started doing the rounds we knew it would be some sort of fudge up, now we have the detail on where the weaknesses are. I notice you say "hopefully" says it all.

berneyarms · 21 Apr 2015

Gareth Marston said:
0530 ex Abr is two car and the 0930 ex Abr has not run as six for months.

When the leaked memo about the withdrawal of the 0747 from Wrexham started doing the rounds we knew it would be some sort of fudge up, now we have the detail on where the weaknesses are. I notice you say "hopefully" says it all.

Well what word would you use?

I would expect the loads to shift around somewhat - but it will take time to see what happens - people always take their time to adjust.

The 09:30 is still notionally a 6 car in the diagrams, but has been operating as a four car ex-Machynlleth with a 2 car following it empty from Aberystwyth.

Llanigraham · 21 Apr 2015

Gareth Marston said:
I fear the 0730 ex Aberystwyth could get panned some days it is usually the busiest train of the day.

I know quite a few locally that are saying they will catch the next, an hour later, instead.

Gareth Marston · 21 Apr 2015

berneyarms said:
Well what word would you use?

I would expect the loads to shift around somewhat - but it will take time to see what happens - people always take their time to adjust.

The 09:30 is still notionally a 6 car in the diagrams, but has been operating as a four car ex-Machynlleth with a 2 car following it empty from Aberystwyth.

Crossing fingers it doesn't turn In to a PR cock up? Some existing folk may distribute either side but equally the increased number of DOWN trains may encourage new customers who feel the timing of the train is right for them given the improved return options.

All trains at Machynlleth are using the DOWN platform at the moment due to the DDA lift work and other construction stuff. Is there an issue with six cars joining up on the DOWN platform?

berneyarms · 21 Apr 2015

Gareth Marston said:
Crossing fingers it doesn't turn In to a PR cock up? Some existing folk may distribute either side but equally the increased number of DOWN trains may encourage new customers who feel the timing of the train is right for them given the improved return options.

All trains at Machynlleth are using the DOWN platform at the moment due to the DDA lift work and other construction stuff. Is there an issue with six cars joining up on the DOWN platform?

Well I think we should wait and see rather than rushing to judgements.

I'm struggling to figure out why, all of a sudden, you're being rather negative about it? Nothing has changed in terms of sets available, unless you thought more sets were going to be found?

The timetable looks much more balanced now and I'd expect it to work fairly well.

Rhydgaled · 22 Apr 2015

berneyarms said:
The 09:30 is still notionally a 6 car in the diagrams, but has been operating as a four car ex-Machynlleth with a 2 car following it empty from Aberystwyth.

Why does the extra 158 run ECS? Seems rather silly to me, but there must be a reason for it.

merlodlliw · 22 Apr 2015

PHILIPE said:
It could be advertised as a through portion but not advertised as such. But, as the WTT arrival time shows as 19 20 and, in view of the fact the minimum connectional time at Shrewsbury is 5 minutes, it's not shown as a connection even though formed off the 18 09. Computerised systems don't have flexibility, remember.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is something suspicious re this train from Barmouth joining up. Refer back to posts #1027, #1060, #1061 and #1090 re comments on it. May be able to deduce something further when platforming and stock movements at Shrewsbury appear up to date in RTT.

The 1920 Shrewsbury/Chester was put on to allow the passengers to Gobowen/Chirk/Ruabon get home off Gerald,
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

SprinterMan said:
Indeed it does, my personal favourite being this one. Apparently they are so happy that the 0747 Wrexham train has been saved that it is included twice....

Adam

So good they named it twice

Mike Vaughan of ATW is talking to SCRUA on Thursday between 1700 & 1900,to explain the new timetables.

PHILIPE · 22 Apr 2015

Rhydgaled said:
Why does the extra 158 run ECS? Seems rather silly to me, but there must be a reason for it.

Don't know the reason but as it's not going to last much longer not particularly worried about it.

Gareth Marston · 22 Apr 2015

PHILIPE said:
Don't know the reason but as it's not going to last much longer not particularly worried about it.

The UP platform is closed to passengers due to construction work associated with the DDA bridge and the north end of the DOWN platform is shortened due to the DDA work and can't accommodate a 6 car formation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

berneyarms said:
Well I think we should wait and see rather than rushing to judgements.

I'm struggling to figure out why, all of a sudden, you're being rather negative about it? Nothing has changed in terms of sets available, unless you thought more sets were going to be found?

The timetable looks much more balanced now and I'd expect it to work fairly well.

Not the only once concerned about the implications on overcrowding of the new tt. You must remember existing Cambrian trains have high loadings the trains in and out of Shrewsbury have an average of 116 passengers compared to the ATW average of 46. psychologically going back to a predominantly 2 car railway is worrying.
The 1730 off Shrewsbury is another worry and it's 4 car, we've put a timetable in place that encourages travel out from mid wales in the AM including commuters, however the 1730 is the first train after a two hour gap and now has a coast portion all week.

berneyarms · 22 Apr 2015

Gareth Marston said:
Not the only once concerned about the implications on overcrowding of the new tt. You must remember existing Cambrian trains have high loadings the trains in and out of Shrewsbury have an average of 116 passengers compared to the ATW average of 46. psychologically going back to a predominantly 2 car railway is worrying.
The 1730 off Shrewsbury is another worry and it's 4 car, we've put a timetable in place that encourages travel out from mid wales in the AM including commuters, however the 1730 is the first train after a two hour gap and now has a coast portion all week.

Well my question really is why are you only expressing this now. I can't recall you expressing these concerns at any stage until now, quite the opposite in fact.

When the whole Wrexham commuter service issue blew up, and the campaigners there got their way, that certainly meant that there would have to be tighter resourcing on the Cambrian in the mornings.

Even allowing for that Wrexham situation, it was pretty obvious, certainly to me as an outside observer, that, given the lack of suitable rolling stock that this would be more an example of spreading the loading out rather than extra -capacity per se. I'm just mildly surprised that you seem to be raising this now as an issue, rather than earlier in the whole process.

I'd agree that a 16:30 out of Shrewsbury would be probably much more use than the 20:30 that is being introduced, but with the set availability I'm guessing that it just wasn't possible.

Gareth Marston · 22 Apr 2015

berneyarms said:
Well my question really is why are you only expressing this now. I can't recall you expressing these concerns at any stage until now, quite the opposite in fact.

When the whole Wrexham commuter service issue blew up, and the campaigners there got their way, that certainly meant that there would have to be tighter resourcing on the Cambrian in the mornings.

Even allowing for that Wrexham situation, it was pretty obvious, certainly to me as an outside observer, that, given the lack of suitable rolling stock that this would be more an example of spreading the loading out rather than extra -capacity per se. I'm just mildly surprised that you seem to be raising this now as an issue, rather than earlier in the whole process.

I'd agree that a 16:30 out of Shrewsbury would be probably much more use than the 20:30 that is being introduced, but with the set availability I'm guessing that it just wasn't possible.

The situation with the 0730 from Aberystwyth not joining up with the 0646 from Barmouth has only been confirmed this week. Real Time Trains is still showing it as joining up and the draft tt ATW put out for consultation rather craftily showed everything off the coast stating/ terminating at Mach pending confirmation of paths from NR. Admittedly Phillpe saw it coming but we had no other source apart from his hunch.

Locally we've all known there would problems and no one I know was comfortable with pinching stock from Wrexham. The local RUG which is represented on the line liaison commitee has flagged concerns for some time quietly and not in public, a lot did depend on the outcome of the save 0747 from Wrexham campaign. However taken overall it is an improvement , I'm sure we will have a thread about how the enhanced Cambrian tt is doing in due course and see how it goes. I'm catching the 0846 from Newtown tomorrow morning so will do a head count.

PHILIPE · 22 Apr 2015

Gareth Marston said:
The situation with the 0730 from Aberystwyth not joining up with the 0646 from Barmouth has only been confirmed this week. Real Time Trains is still showing it as joining up and the draft tt ATW put out for consultation rather craftily showed everything off the coast stating/ terminating at Mach pending confirmation of paths from NR. Admittedly Phillpe saw it coming but we had no other source apart from his hunch.

Locally we've all known there would problems and no one I know was comfortable with pinching stock from Wrexham. The local RUG which is represented on the line liaison commitee has flagged concerns for some time quietly and not in public, a lot did depend on the outcome of the save 0747 from Wrexham campaign. However taken overall it is an improvement , I'm sure we will have a thread about how the enhanced Cambrian tt is doing in due course and see how it goes. I'm catching the 0846 from Newtown tomorrow morning so will do a head count.

The only way I saw the 2 Car on the 07 30 coming was through RTT showing the stock off the 06 30 ex Aber shunting at Shrewsbury to attach to the 07 30. Hence my hunch.

merlodlliw · 23 Apr 2015

Gareth Marston said:
The situation with the 0730 from Aberystwyth not joining up with the 0646 from Barmouth has only been confirmed this week. Real Time Trains is still showing it as joining up and the draft tt ATW put out for consultation rather craftily showed everything off the coast stating/ terminating at Mach pending confirmation of paths from NR. Admittedly Phillpe saw it coming but we had no other source apart from his hunch.

Locally we've all known there would problems and no one I know was comfortable with pinching stock from Wrexham. The local RUG which is represented on the line liaison commitee has flagged concerns for some time quietly and not in public, a lot did depend on the outcome of the save 0747 from Wrexham campaign. However taken overall it is an improvement , I'm sure we will have a thread about how the enhanced Cambrian tt is doing in due course and see how it goes. I'm catching the 0846 from Newtown tomorrow morning so will do a head count.

I agree no one I communicate with in Mid Wales was happy with a well used train being pinched from Wrexham,had the service axe not been leaked,it would have been lost.

Rhydgaled · 23 Apr 2015

Assuming the timetable published on the ATW website is correct, I'm actually quite relieved. Most of the Cambrian coast through portions seem to have been retained and therefore the 4-car formations. Unless I've missed something, only the 07:30 off AYW has lost its coast portion and no trains in the other direction have. Given ATW have not introduced extra stock (unless they've been saving the unit released by the Manchester LHCS last December) I had expected more 4-car workings reduced to 2-car between Shrewsbury and Machynlleth. And if the unit off the 06:30 is going to be attached to the 07:30 at Shrewsbury at least that will still be 4-car into Birmingham even though it has lost two coaches between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury.

PHILIPE · 23 Apr 2015

Rhydgaled said:
Assuming the timetable published on the ATW website is correct, I'm actually quite relieved. Most of the Cambrian coast through portions seem to have been retained and therefore the 4-car formations. Unless I've missed something, only the 07:30 off AYW has lost its coast portion and no trains in the other direction have. Given ATW have not introduced extra stock (unless they've been saving the unit released by the Manchester LHCS last December) I had expected more 4-car workings reduced to 2-car between Shrewsbury and Machynlleth. And if the unit off the 06:30 is going to be attached to the 07:30 at Shrewsbury at least that will still be 4-car into Birmingham even though it has lost two coaches between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury.

Done with no extra units. Manchester LHCS unit swallowed up by additional capacity on North Wales Coast as has been well documented on the Forum.
Just the 18 09 Birmingham Int to Aberystwyth reduced to 2 Car beyond Shrewsbury.

Gareth Marston · 23 Apr 2015

90 on the 0730 from Aberystwyth today after Welshpool but remember the Cambrians usage profile dips mid week and peaks over the weekend with a spike Monday morning. I've seen the loadings on a Saturday top 200 easily.
50 on the 0940 to Milford Haven from Shrewsbury. Different on way home as the weekend lesire travel ramp up starts. 1450 ex Cardiff was rammed full all the way up to Shrewsbury.

Cambrian hourly service consultation

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