Liverpool Lime Street 25/5 poor crowd control

Ianigsy · 27 May 2015

Pathing between Birkenhead Central and Hooton might be an issue, but I've often thought that (before the Chester frequency was increased) a useful improvement would be to make a proper platform out of the stabling siding next to the southbound platform at Birkenhead Central and run an all-stations service in between accelerated Chester trains calling at, say, Bebington, Bromborough, Hooton, Bache and Chester (I notice one Chester train per hour misses Capenhurst nowadays).

Mid-1980s to mid-1990s, Platform 1 at Birkenhead North used to be used regularly for mid-morning unit swaps- it was always a dead giveaway when the replacement unit crept into the platform several minutes before a train was due!

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Bevan Price · 27 May 2015

The 6 car sets towards New Brighton were very well loaded in the morning, but after the Queens had passed, many spectators walked along the riverside road, following the Queens towards Birkenhead / Liverpool, rather than take the train from New Brighton back to Birkenhead or Liverpool. I took a train to Hamilton Square and walked to Woodside to view the Queens again. On returning to Hamilton Square at just after 14:00, there was a huge queue, which I avoided by walking to Conway Park, and caught a moderately loaded train to Lime St.

Got to Lime Street at about 14:40. As commented elsewhere, there were nominally 5 separate queues segregated by destination - but you had to join a massive general queue before you reached the segregated queuing location. It might have been better if they had used different entrances, one for Wigan / Man Vic line destinations, and the other for Crewe / Warrington Central line destinations. (Inevitably some clowns would have joined the wrong queue, but it would have eased problems for the majority.)

Spent just over 30 mins. in the queue, just managing to catch the 15:20 Man. Vic. departure. Rear two coaches were packed, with standing passengers. Front 2 coaches had lots of empty space - probably 50 or more empty seats.

martynbristow · 28 May 2015

Ianigsy said:
Pathing between Birkenhead Central and Hooton might be an issue, but I've often thought that (before the Chester frequency was increased) a useful improvement would be to make a proper platform out of the stabling siding next to the southbound platform at Birkenhead Central and run an all-stations service in between accelerated Chester trains calling at, say, Bebington, Bromborough, Hooton, Bache and Chester (I notice one Chester train per hour misses Capenhurst nowadays).

Mid-1980s to mid-1990s, Platform 1 at Birkenhead North used to be used regularly for mid-morning unit swaps- it was always a dead giveaway when the replacement unit crept into the platform several minutes before a train was due!

I think Birkenhead central wouldn't work personally, but over taking at rock ferry could be worked in, you'd save 10 ish minutes if you compare the ECS working with a normal one.
However on events like this cutting stations would have prevented the 10 minute slip in time. Trains hemoraged minutes thoughout the run leaving the service in peices. I think it happened on 3 occasions from my Twitter feed

Floul1 · 28 May 2015

The Merseyrail network is rather busy on most normal, so I'm not surprised to hear about the queues forming as quickly as they did. Indeed a number of my friends completely avoided the City for the entire weekend, just so they didn't get caught up in what was assumed to be hell.

Bletchleyite · 28 May 2015

martynbristow said:
Trains hemoraged minutes thoughout the run leaving the service in peices. I think it happened on 3 occasions from my Twitter feed

In such a situation did Merseyrail logically become more like a London commuter operation, say LM? LM's method of operation seems to be that the ideal in the peak is that all trains will run in the direction of the main flow, however late they happen to be, and will not miss stops out. You then tidy up the mess (by cancelling, turning short, short-forming, missing stops or whatever) between the peaks or in the early evening. I think this is the right approach as in the end it's better to be a bit late than unable to board because of multiple cancellations.

The only time I recall hearing of LM dropping stops from a peak hour train was where a 12-car was short-formed to 4-car because of a double coupling failure with no spare units to hand, and that was probably sensible as the train concerned was a stopper after Tring, and it would have been full and standing from Tring south, let alone any intermediate stations.

martynbristow · 28 May 2015

Neil Williams said:
In such a situation did Merseyrail logically become more like a London commuter operation, say LM? LM's method of operation seems to be that the ideal in the peak is that all trains will run in the direction of the main flow, however late they happen to be, and will not miss stops out. You then tidy up the mess (by cancelling, turning short, short-forming, missing stops or whatever) between the peaks or in the early evening. I think this is the right approach as in the end it's better to be a bit late than unable to board because of multiple cancellations.

The only time I recall hearing of LM dropping stops from a peak hour train was where a 12-car was short-formed to 4-car because of a double coupling failure with no spare units to hand, and that was probably sensible as the train concerned was a stopper after Tring, and it would have been full and standing from Tring south, let alone any intermediate stations.

It seemed they were very busy, I avoided the queues but you got large gaps in service and previously I've known trains to come in, stop, open doors and leave without being able to fit anymore people on.

Grumpy · 28 May 2015

Bevan Price said:
Got to Lime Street at about 14:40. As commented elsewhere, there were nominally 5 separate queues segregated by destination - but you had to join a massive general queue before you reached the segregated queuing location. It might have been better if they had used different entrances, one for Wigan / Man Vic line destinations, and the other for Crewe / Warrington Central line destinations. (Inevitably some clowns would have joined the wrong queue, but it would have eased problems for the majority.)

I was also at Lime St. about 14.40 and agree with the above. At the "One" bus station I had the impression there were plenty of inspectors about, available to advise the public. A similar presence by railway staff at the end of the queue at Lime St would have been helpful (may have been there but I couldn't see it)

M28361M · 29 May 2015

For what it's worth, here is the official view from Merseytravel on how things went:

Travel planning contributes to Three Queens success

Hundreds of thousands of event-goers saw Cunards Three Queens make maritime history and then returned home safely as transport plans stood up to the test.

Unprecedented numbers are understood to have lined the waterfronts in Liverpool, Wirral and Sefton putting significant demand on the transport network.

Across both the Sunday and Monday around 400,000 people are estimated to have travelled in to and around Merseyside on the rail network both Merseyrail and mainline services alone.

Key facts and stats:

Liverpool Lime Street: A queuing system helped 135,000 people safely use the station for mainline services over both the Sunday and Monday taking more than a third (36%) more passengers on their travels compared with a usual Sunday and 63 per cent more on the Monday, compared with the previous bank holiday.

Merseyrail: 250,000 people across the Sunday and Monday are estimated to have travelled with Merseyrail. Longer and more frequent train services were provided on both sides of the river, with capacity increased by over 80% over the weekend.

Entertainment was provided at major stations and thousands of flags were given to passengers to welcome the Three Queens.

Northern: Provided additional and longer trains to and from stations between Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester, with capacity during the event increased by 88 per cent over Sunday and Monday.

Northern also had over 60 additional management and customer service employees at Liverpool and 17 volunteers at six locations across Merseyside, helping customers and handing out 20,000 bottles of water.

Northern also handed out 800 pirate hats and eye patches to young Cunard fans over the weekend.

First TransPennine Express: Provided a number of strengthened services travelling to and from Liverpool Lime Street over Sunday and Monday, including many six-carriage services. This saw capacity increase by a quarter (25%) on Sunday, and by more than half (56%) on the Monday.

An additional evening service into Manchester was provided on both Sunday and Monday, with extra calling points provided at Huyton, St Helens and Newton-le-Willows on the additional Monday evening service.

I've only included the main bits of train information above - the full article is at http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/abou...ning-contributes-to-Three-Queens-success.aspx

Interesting that TPE ran a train calling at Huyton and St Helens Junction. Is this the first time a TPE service has called at those stations?

martynbristow · 29 May 2015

M28361M said:
For what it's worth, here is the official view from Merseytravel on how things went:

I've only included the main bits of train information above - the full article is at http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/abou...ning-contributes-to-Three-Queens-success.aspx

Interesting that TPE ran a train calling at Huyton and St Helens Junction. Is this the first time a TPE service has called at those stations?

I'm not surprised, it is blowing there own trumpet a bit. No mention of ANY problems, so I can only assume performance was 100% and there were no queues AT ALL.
Problems did occur and were dealt with on demand but they weren't dealt with IN ADVANCE.
I think Merseyrail's* problems are down to Long Term planning (10's years) and not on the day planning.
There were issues on platforms with people barging on before people tried to get off.
The event went well but its far from perfect.
I think it was more down to the people working the event that made it succeed than Merseyrail/Travels planning.
A lot of people were unaware of changes and the posters they used were hardly clear.
Did anyone else see this .. Someone forgot to change the timetable

bramling · 30 May 2015

Neil Williams said:
Eh? They are inherently predictable. This one was announced in advance.

I don't agree with this. You may know an event is happening, but it's much harder to predict what the passenger flows will be - especially if the event is unticketed therefore it's hard to say how many people may turn up, or from where. You also have the variable that the weather on the day may also have an effect both on numbers and how quickly crowds disperse.

Likewise, more generally, it's hard to justify providing capacity for a sunny bank holiday when (for example) every man and his dog from the East Midlands seems to want to head to Skegness, or the recent issue of overcrowding in the Manchester area on weekends approaching Christmas.

fowler9 · 30 May 2015

bramling said:
I don't agree with this. You may know an event is happening, but it's much harder to predict what the passenger flows will be - especially if the event is unticketed therefore it's hard to say how many people may turn up, or from where. You also have the variable that the weather on the day may also have an effect both on numbers and how quickly crowds disperse.

Likewise, more generally, it's hard to justify providing capacity for a sunny bank holiday when (for example) every man and his dog from the East Midlands seems to want to head to Skegness, or the recent issue of overcrowding in the Manchester area on weekends approaching Christmas.

I disagree. This massive event was planned well over a year in advance by Cunard, good weather or not. Lime Street Station looked like the management had been caught off guard with one queue for anyone catching any train.

martynbristow · 30 May 2015

bramling said:
I don't agree with this. You may know an event is happening, but it's much harder to predict what the passenger flows will be - especially if the event is unticketed therefore it's hard to say how many people may turn up, or from where. You also have the variable that the weather on the day may also have an effect both on numbers and how quickly crowds disperse.

Likewise, more generally, it's hard to justify providing capacity for a sunny bank holiday when (for example) every man and his dog from the East Midlands seems to want to head to Skegness, or the recent issue of overcrowding in the Manchester area on weekends approaching Christmas.

"especially if the event is unticketed", was it.... I recall there being some tickets sold BY MERSEYTRAVEL!
The mersnyferries was advance ticket only on Monday so they had ample warming, and it was a big event, they knew it was a big event and put in place the default plan they used for the Giants, which was pretty awful :P

fowler9 · 30 May 2015

martynbristow said:
"especially if the event is unticketed", was it.... I recall there being some tickets sold BY MERSEYTRAVEL!
The mersnyferries was advance ticket only on Monday so they had ample warming, and it was a big event, they knew it was a big event and put in place the default plan they used for the Giants, which was pretty awful :P

Indeed. Over a year ago it was known that all three of Cunards ships would be in the Mersey. It was known that many people would come to see them. Even the Red Arrows brief flyover was planned well in advance.

At Lime Street it looked like a week before the event someone in management tried to find out if any security guards needed overtime. The day before they threw up some barriers in the old car park by platform 9 and put up a sign directing people to 5 none existent queues for different services. The sign was the kind they put up on the bridge at South Parkway if there is disruption to London Midland or other services on a short term basis, not for a massive event that has been known about for over 12 months. I could have done that and would have done it cheaper.

martynbristow · 30 May 2015

fowler9 said:
Indeed. Over a year ago it was known that all three of Cunards ships would be in the Mersey. It was known that many people would come to see them. Even the Red Arrows brief flyover was planned well in advance.

At Lime Street it looked like a week before the event someone in management tried to find out if any security guards needed overtime. The day before they threw up some barriers in the old car park by platform 9 and put up a sign directing people to 5 none existent queues for different services. The sign was the kind they put up on the bridge at South Parkway if there is disruption to London Midland or other services on a short term basis, not for a massive event that has been known about for over 12 months. I could have done that and would have done it cheaper.

YEah I bet
It was advertised weeks in advance.
They just don't care and don't know what there doing!
The problem is they only have to *run* the station and don't have to do a good job! :/

Old Yard Dog · 31 May 2015

With no trains from Ellesmere Port and long queues and a full car park at Hooton, I decided I had no option but to drive. The tailback on the inside lane M53 from junction 1 was long and stationary when I arrived. But the M53 has an unnumbered junction between junction 1 and the Mersey tunnel giving access to the docks and Seacombe. Because it is unnumbered, few outsiders know about it and the route to Seacombe promenade was surprisingly clear.

On this forum, we often wax on about stations (like Hooton) with unnumbered platforms. But how many other motorways have unnumbered junctions?

fowler9 · 31 May 2015

At the end of the day pretty much anyone living in Liverpool with their ears open knew transport was going to be carnage. There was no excuse at all for management at Liverpool Lime Street being caught out by the number of people who arrived and wanted to depart afterwards unless they walk around with their fingers in their ears shouting wah wah wah.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

martynbristow said:
YEah I bet
It was advertised weeks in advance.
They just don't care and don't know what there doing!
The problem is they only have to *run* the station and don't have to do a good job! :/

Management at Lime Street had a chance to prove that they can manage a big event and once again proved they can't. They can't even manage a normal Saturday, I arrived at Lime Street today on a four car East Midlands service just as two four car Northern services arrived. Everyone of these 12 carriages had to get through the one barrier that was also selling tickets.

wijit · 31 May 2015

I agree. This event and the numbers was reasonably predictable, as were the times people would want to leave. At Lime Street there are enough entrances/exits to be able to control queues by rough destination. Those who "organised" the queues (I use the term organised as loosely as possible) appeared to just throw an idea up and then retreat when it became clear it was failing. Numbers of 135000 using the station could be fairly accurate, but when you look at how other stations cope with crowds it isn't hard to see this was doomed. for a station with three basic exit directions (North, South and East) this was entirely manageable, to attempt to claim any sort of success puts them in the realms of "Blatter democracy".

Hyphen · 31 May 2015

Old Yard Dog said:
On this forum, we often wax on about stations (like Hooton) with unnumbered platforms. But how many other motorways have unnumbered junctions?

I'm not familiar with this area at all, but I've had a good look on Google Maps/Street View and other sites to try to answer this.

Both Google Maps and CBRD claim that this 'unnumbered' junction is actually still part of the J1 complex. It appears to be considered that way because despite having two exit slips (in the L'pool direction) you still haven't been able to rejoin until after both. Two exits at a single numbered junction isn't without precedent.

However, having taken a look at Street View of this junction, it's my opinion that it's unnumbered because it's not actually a junction with the M53 at all. Instead, it's actually a junction with the A59. This appears to be complicated a little by the 'end of motorway restrictions' signage actually on the ground, but Google Maps places the junction after the end of the m'way. This is backed up by Wikipedia which doesn't claim the A5139 as a junction of the M53, but does state it's the first junction on the A59.

table38 · 31 May 2015

Here's a map for those not familiar with the location. At the risk of going further off topic, we can crowbar a tenuous railway connection back in as I'd often wondered how they managed to build the western approach to the Kingsway Tunnel in a cutting right through a load of houses. The obvious answer is that it was built in the cutting of the disused railway line to Seacombe

martynbristow · 1 Jun 2015

fowler9 said:
At the end of the day pretty much anyone living in Liverpool with their ears open knew transport was going to be carnage. There was no excuse at all for management at Liverpool Lime Street being caught out by the number of people who arrived and wanted to depart afterwards unless they walk around with their fingers in their ears shouting wah wah wah.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Management at Lime Street had a chance to prove that they can manage a big event and once again proved they can't. They can't even manage a normal Saturday, I arrived at Lime Street today on a four car East Midlands service just as two four car Northern services arrived. Everyone of these 12 carriages had to get through the one barrier that was also selling tickets.

Ohh I picked someone up last night from carriage siding 9, they had to walk down the whole platform with the other herds of people.
"what a way to run a railway" I think was once said in a film

fowler9 · 1 Jun 2015

martynbristow said:
Ohh I picked someone up last night from carriage siding 9, they had to walk down the whole platform with the other herds of people.
"what a way to run a railway" I think was once said in a film

Ha ha ha. At the end of the day I guess it wasn't that bad. First world problems.

Liverpool Lime Street 25/5 poor crowd control

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