transmanche
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Not in the UK it's not! (Plus watching films on your computer/tablet without wearing headphones is not 'freedom of expression'...)
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Virgin Trains removes standard class quiet zone; worst intercity TOC in living memory
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thenorthern
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I don't think that its worth prosecuting people for talking in the quiet zone as many people aren't aware they are doing it.
I do think that there should be more enforcement of the Quiet Zone though particularly in regards to children.
I do think that there should be more enforcement of the Quiet Zone though particularly in regards to children.
I think you need to understand that "removing a feature you like" is not the same as "treating customers with utter contempt". You are not every customer, and the fact that you like them doesn't mean that a majority of customers do.
Personally, I'm kinda intimidated by the idea of a "quiet zone", how much noise is too much noise? Better to sit somewhere else where I dont have to worry about it.
Is there any evidence at all that this is a "popular", or even desired feature, beyond a few who might otherwise travel anyway?
Chris M
Member
When travelling alone I always travel in the quiet carriage if it is possible. I sometimes do work on my laptop, sometimes I read, sometimes I sleep, sometimes I just gaze out the window. i prefer to do all this in a quiet atmosphere, tapping of a keyboard doesn't bother me - it's not as if people are using typewriters!
I don't often travel on WCML, but I find the quiet coach on FGW's trains between London and Bristol/South Wales normally plenty quiet at all times of the day. If they aren't then it isn't long before a passenger will inform the offending person they are in the quiet carriage and they'll usually shut up.
The only exception that comes to mind was a summer Sunday afternoon departure from Newquay, where coaches A and B were largely full of French teenagers (probably about 15-16) who were treating the train like a playground - shouting and throwing things around the carriage. Even a fellow passenger bellowing at them in French only quietened them down a bit for a short time. Fortunately they alighted at Plymouth or Exeter (I forget which) and the rest of the trip to Paddington was as relaxing as intercity train travel should be.
If I'm travelling with more than one other person though, then I wont sit in the quiet coach as our conversation would disturb others.
I don't often travel on WCML, but I find the quiet coach on FGW's trains between London and Bristol/South Wales normally plenty quiet at all times of the day. If they aren't then it isn't long before a passenger will inform the offending person they are in the quiet carriage and they'll usually shut up.
The only exception that comes to mind was a summer Sunday afternoon departure from Newquay, where coaches A and B were largely full of French teenagers (probably about 15-16) who were treating the train like a playground - shouting and throwing things around the carriage. Even a fellow passenger bellowing at them in French only quietened them down a bit for a short time. Fortunately they alighted at Plymouth or Exeter (I forget which) and the rest of the trip to Paddington was as relaxing as intercity train travel should be.
If I'm travelling with more than one other person though, then I wont sit in the quiet coach as our conversation would disturb others.
One of the problems is that when you book tickets online, your seat reservation can be in the quiet coach.
Maybe if the companies made it obvious upon booking "THIS IS A QUIET COACH, PLEASE DO NOT BOOK THIS SEAT IF YOU DO NOT INTEND TO BE QUIET" then that might help a little.
Maybe if the companies made it obvious upon booking "THIS IS A QUIET COACH, PLEASE DO NOT BOOK THIS SEAT IF YOU DO NOT INTEND TO BE QUIET" then that might help a little.
A couple of years ago I took a decision to minimise my use of rail travel because life is just too short to put up with the fairly unpleasant travelling conditions that I routinely encountered. Four, then regular experiences helped me arrive at this decision. Travelling with Northern Rail, travelling Standard Class on Virgin Trains, trying to join northbound trains at Manchester Piccadilly' platform 14, and trying to join Liverpool - Preston semi-fast services at Lime Street. I now travel around 25,000 miles a year by car, much of which I would previously have travelled by train. I also make an increasing number of shorter local journeys by push-bike. Despite some slightly longer travelling times and quite a few traffic jams, I find my stress levels have reduced significantly and my quality of life has improved. In an increasingly noisy world, removing quiet coaches will do nothing to encourage people to travel by train.
Polarbear
Established Member
Although I like the idea of a designated quiet zone, policing such an area seems to be at the heart of the problem.
When quiet zones were first implemented, the only real source of noise would have been conversations. Little or none of the electronic wizardry that we take for granted these days was around. Nowadays, policing quiet zones has become almost impossible due largely to such devices.
It's a similar situation on buses. Although buses don't have quiet zones, there have been notices clearly displayed to indicate that, for example, music shouldn't be played loudly. Policing is largely non existant as its down to the driver who has enough to do as it is & some individuals take full advantage of this.
Unless you have a permanent staff presence, there is no realistic way that a quiet zone (or rules on buses) can be effectively enforced & operators aren't going to pay for that.
When quiet zones were first implemented, the only real source of noise would have been conversations. Little or none of the electronic wizardry that we take for granted these days was around. Nowadays, policing quiet zones has become almost impossible due largely to such devices.
It's a similar situation on buses. Although buses don't have quiet zones, there have been notices clearly displayed to indicate that, for example, music shouldn't be played loudly. Policing is largely non existant as its down to the driver who has enough to do as it is & some individuals take full advantage of this.
Unless you have a permanent staff presence, there is no realistic way that a quiet zone (or rules on buses) can be effectively enforced & operators aren't going to pay for that.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I would agree with you about anything involving TPE and Northern other than very rural branch lines. I don't find VT Standard particularly unpleasant - the seating is a bit cramped and some seats don't have windows, but there really are worse things in the world. As for joining busy services at Lime St, can you allow a bit longer for your connection and join first? Letting trains go such that I can board a longer time before departure at Euston (or be standing right next to the door if they're not unlocked yet) is my trick for having a near 100% record of getting a seat when commuting.
But I think the quiet zone thing is more of a symptom of an increasing greater problem - of overcrowding, of people who have no consideration for others (e.g. by listening to/watching films with the volume up in a public area) and similar.
You should maybe try LM south WCML commuter services some time. There are no marked quiet coaches because *all* coaches are de-facto quiet coaches. Make a racket and you will get tutted at at the very least...
Trains or no trains, I think we can say that that is definitely a favourable outcome - to your health, to traffic congestion, to how busy the trains are etc. Cycling is to be very much encouraged.
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SS4
Established Member
I concur, with the rise of open plan offices there is no getting away from the constant barrage of noise. With the warm weather I've had to put up with a noisy office Mon-Fri and the sound of lawnmowers/hedge trimmers of a weekend and the stress has been noticeable. Removing the quiet coach deprives people of the chance to destress and wind down and to enjoy the journey.
Regarding that last point VT should be ensuring that a journey is not a chore/something to be endured except where it's not possible due to external circumstances (ie peak times). People should not have to use noise cancelling earphones to make a journey more bearable.
For my part it comes to down that fact VT markets itself as premium operator yet it's removing the features which make it premium.
Agreed, the problem is always with policing the quiet zone and by getting rid of it they've decided to chop off its head to cure a headache
Northern and TPE, it very much depends on where and when you travel. It's certainly not all doom and gloom though. I find having my own mp3 player cures a lot of problems.
As for cycling, have you seen the traffic?!
As for cycling, have you seen the traffic?!
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Interesting how people find different things stressful. As I've said I find hearing someone's film stressful, or their music, because I can't hear it properly and I think my brain tries to lock onto it and work out what it is! Whereas the background sound of grass machinery is to me just reminiscent of summer days and isn't unpleasant at all.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Won't work in every city, but there are often pleasant back street routes that avoid most of it. Cycling in London can be a real pleasure once you learn the best route for your journey. Not everyone wants to be the fast lycra-clad road bike rider vying for space with big builders' lorries on the Euston Road. I'd rather grab a Boris bike and pedal the back streets more slowly, sitting up and looking at the city around me as I go. Basically I treat it as walking, but a bit quicker. Not as driving, but slower.
Beats the sweaty Northern Line any day.
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The problem isn't fixable with quiet zones, it's more fundamental and to do with that
Quiet Zones are pointless for this very reason. Such is the self-centred self-absorption of these people, you think The Obnoxious will even notice the sign saying "Quiet Zone"?? Let alone respect it if they do. It's a society problem, not a train one.
- The people with the most annoying voices seem to be the ones that love the sound of their own voice the most
- Tedious people with nothing to say contracting verbal diarrhoea
- Tedious people unable to wait 20 minutes to speak to the person they are about to meet (ever been subjected to a half hour booming conversation on a train only for the person to say "OK well I'll see you in five"??)
- More and more people seeming to require music at full blast on their MP3 player, with headphones that may as well be speakers
- A number of people aged 30 and below who have never been taught how to behave, who open their gobs and let rip wherever they happen to be, and regardless of whoever is around them
- Working on a train? Remember the days not so long ago when people would go to the vestibule to make a mobile phone call?
Quiet Zones are pointless for this very reason. Such is the self-centred self-absorption of these people, you think The Obnoxious will even notice the sign saying "Quiet Zone"?? Let alone respect it if they do. It's a society problem, not a train one.
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Surely part of a much wider social phenomenon where the rights of the individual to express their individuality take total precedence over the rights of others not to be disturbed by such activities. One manifestation is this total lack of consideration for others in the immediate vicinity.
As another contributor has mentioned, a result of this social change is to make public transport travel, by bus or by train, something better avoided these days -- precisely at a time when we ought to be trying to attract more people away from their personal transport and into the public variety.
Me neither! 3 car trains, one of which is mostly first class and an accessible toilet. The other two cars rammed all day. Where would they put it?
I wasn't going to bother reading any more of this thread but something in the title struck me when I saw it in the index: "Worst intercity TOC in living memory". Some of us have considerably longer memories that the OP. Anyone that travelled on BR InterCity in the bad old under-funded days will have a very low base to compare to. Yes, they had Mk3 coaches and seats that lined up with windows, but very little else to offer in my fading memory. VT has many faults but getting me to London in a couple of hours with a generally reliable service will do for me.
Quiet coaches and First Class freebies are all well and good but I just want to get from A to B. If you are so important that you HAVE to work on the train perhaps you should think about your workload and plan your day better.
Quiet coaches and First Class freebies are all well and good but I just want to get from A to B. If you are so important that you HAVE to work on the train perhaps you should think about your workload and plan your day better.
transmanche
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It's not that people are 'important', it's just that some people would like to make productive use of their travelling time - so that time out of the office isn't wasted and when they eventually do get home, they can spend time with their family rather than catching up on work. YMMV.
samuelmorris
Established Member
"Even c2c have quiet zones on their trains" - yes they do, but I don't ever see them being enforced. I have been the subject of a 'quite please' having been so distracted I missed the plethora of signs on a SouthWest 444 once, but my daily commute is every bit as likely to have headphone leakage right next to me in a quiet coach as not. IMO it doesn't achieve an awful lot on services that don't have guards to enforce them. Long distance services with train managers I'm fine with it, but DOO commuter services it hardly seems worth bothering with to me. Also, the concept that you can't work on a train that has no quiet zone is wholly ridiculous. To me, having a full size or seatback table is as big a boost in productivity as it gets, as having a laptop actually on your lap and trying to work is not easy when a train shakes about. I'd also say that 2+2 seating is a big improvement as 2+3 there isn't really enough space to use anything beyond a smartphone. Power sockets are nice and very useful for long journeys but with journeys spending <75 minutes on a single train, if you just leave home with the laptop charged and then plug it in when you get to your destination, you can go without. For mobiles and tablets, portable chargers are a must these days, especially since the sockets that are fitted on trains often don't work (including, much to my disappointment, a 377/7 the other week).
So the railways are now responsible for work-life balance of passengers?
transmanche
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Ah the classic 'straw man argument'.
Who said the railways were responsible for anyone's work-life balance? (Clue: no-one did.) I was merely responding to the false assertion that people working on a train are doing it because they are 'important' or simply poor at planning their workload.
In any cases, the railways have long advertised the ability to do a bit of work on the move as a reason for choosing rail over other forms of travel. So it's hardly surprising that people actually do that.
SourceFGW said:
And here are couple of TV adverts highlighting the ability to work on board. Warning - second video contains Jimmy Savile.
[youtube]iN7naLLeB0A[/youtube] [youtube]Bo_fY5Pq90Y[/youtube]
SS4
Established Member
Everything you've said makes great sense but what does one do about it? People don't talk as much as they used to (there was a program on about a year ago where people would report their neighbours to the council rather than talk to them) but instead go through the TOC. Virgin don't want complaints so they take the path of least resistance and abolish the quiet zone
Altfish
Member
I like quiet zones and will ask people in them to stop talking on their phones or playing music.
It's not about doing work, it's about not wanting to hear half a conversation about something that should have been organised earlier. Or even more annoying the standard opening line, "I'm on the train..."
It's not about doing work, it's about not wanting to hear half a conversation about something that should have been organised earlier. Or even more annoying the standard opening line, "I'm on the train..."
shedman
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i honest cannot believe some of the comments I am reading in this thread. I know there was going to be the usual drivel so I had kept away from reading it but now I have I am overwhelmed by the claims some people are making!!!
Noise is a part of everyday life, rail travel is a public affair and technology is now a huge part of life. People with issues about said subjects need to assess themselves.
Yes I totally dislike noisy travel but when I make the decision to use public transport I know there will be nothing I can do about my fellow travellers. The screaming baby, the business man who makes calls loudly that seem totally pointless and the guy with music blasting so loud from his ear phones in surprised he can still hear are just all part of the "fun" of it. I avoid rail travel as much as I can now
Noise is a part of everyday life, rail travel is a public affair and technology is now a huge part of life. People with issues about said subjects need to assess themselves.
Yes I totally dislike noisy travel but when I make the decision to use public transport I know there will be nothing I can do about my fellow travellers. The screaming baby, the business man who makes calls loudly that seem totally pointless and the guy with music blasting so loud from his ear phones in surprised he can still hear are just all part of the "fun" of it. I avoid rail travel as much as I can now
David Goddard
Established Member
Not normally too bothered about whether it is a quiet zone or not - the thing that gets my goat is those who abuse the WiFi by using it to stream or upload films etc.
I went to Glasgow last November and planned to work on the train back to Birmingham but was unable to (could not even get onto Google) because some pillock in the next bay spent the whole journey uploading his videos he had made.
I called Virgin WiFi support who offered to reboot the system (effectively forcing him off) but after a minute or two he was back on again and we were back to square one.
They have filters in place to stop you loading indecent material etc, they need to block access to high volume media sites as well.
I went to Glasgow last November and planned to work on the train back to Birmingham but was unable to (could not even get onto Google) because some pillock in the next bay spent the whole journey uploading his videos he had made.
I called Virgin WiFi support who offered to reboot the system (effectively forcing him off) but after a minute or two he was back on again and we were back to square one.
They have filters in place to stop you loading indecent material etc, they need to block access to high volume media sites as well.
Blocking measures can be circumvented with a little know-how, and that know-how will become more prevalent as ISP level blocking increases. It is inevitable that some individuals will try this with on-train Wi-Fi. It will most likely circumvent TOC-imposed blocks as well.
David Goddard
Established Member
That's not a good sign - TOCs cant enforce Quiet Zones so they withdraw them. TOCs cant enforce fair use of WiFi so.............
SS4
Established Member
You may not see that as a problem but how much revenue would you make for the TOC if you decided the ambience was suitable enough to travel by train for discretionary journeys? It seems to me that this procedure is evidence of VT deciding that the money of those who don't travel because of noise is offset by those who remain and the cost of enforcing the quiet zone/complaints.
I wonder how many chose not to travel because they were forced to sit in the quiet zone when making a reservation? Something tells me it's 0.
I have personally just emailed VT to advise them unless the quiet zone is reinstated then I shan't be travelling with them again but how many people have the choice?
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Wouldn't something like wireshark be able to sniff the source of the network usage and block the MAC address? They're easy enough to spoof on a desktop but on a mobile device (especially ones designed not to be changed by users) more difficult
Flamingo
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I have to wonder how popular the "Quiet Carriage" really is, apart from with a fairly vociferous minority who do seem to whinge loud and long about any change.
I have not have had a single passenger bemoan the loss of the First Class quiet carriage, and it was always the emptiest of the two First Class carriages. The same thing with the Standard Class quiet carriage, it is always the last one to fill up, and this is not just because it is furthest away from the exit at Paddington. Even when the train is in reverse, Coach A is noticeably less busy than other Standard Class carriages.
I have not have had a single passenger bemoan the loss of the First Class quiet carriage, and it was always the emptiest of the two First Class carriages. The same thing with the Standard Class quiet carriage, it is always the last one to fill up, and this is not just because it is furthest away from the exit at Paddington. Even when the train is in reverse, Coach A is noticeably less busy than other Standard Class carriages.
Minilad
Established Member
At the end of the day people don't have a right to a quiet journey to work. As I've asked before how do they cope when in the office if they need silence to work. Indeed people may be put off train travel if Virgin do away with quiet zones but I am guessing a company that size have done a bit of research first (Maybe even working on the train!). If you don't like it you can drive which some people claim to find more relaxing. I personally don't find being stuck in a car more relaxing but who am I to say. All of these technological advances were meant to make our lives easier. Instead we are living further away from work and doing work on the journey there and back without a shorter day in the office. You pays your money and takes your choice.
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