Desperately seeking advice - £422.15 fine

Hey,

I received a letter yesterday dated 19th June 2015 titled 'Further steps notice' telling me I owed £422.15 from the South Yorkshire Enforcement Unit. I have had zero contact with the police so baffled, I rang up the number and was told that I dodged a rail fare last August (2014) - so 11 months ago. I was found guilty in absentia by a court in sheffield.

So what they know:
I was supposedly caught without a ticket travelling from Leeds to London. The address given was to my old student house in Leeds.

What I know:
As a recent graduate, I've moved around quite a bit so I presume the court summons and the initial penalty fare simply got lost in the post.
I remember losing my wallet on a journey a while ago and having to give my details to pay a fine or something ages ago.
I may have forgot to buy a ticket on a journey, but how can the rail company prove beyond any doubt it was me and not somebody else that gave this address? (long shot...)

Anyway - does anyone have any advice on how to proceed. Ideally I would like to not pay anything (poor graduate) and I really really would like to NOT have a criminal conviction!

I have been told I need to call my local magistrate's court in London, swear a statutory oath that I never received the prior court summons etc, then my penalty will be voided, but I will receive a NEW court date where I will have to plead guilty/not guilty. Silly question but how serious is this? What are the risks of pleading not guilty? Should I talk to a lawyer? I wouldn't mind paying a hundred quid or so penalty but £422.15 is literally unfeasible at this moment. Are they any loopholes I could explore? I remember hearing that with regards to TFL, if they didn't take you to court within 6 months, the case they had against you would expire and you were safe. Is there a similar expiration date before which they NEED to get to you into court (this penalty is 11 months old).

Any help is massively appreciated.. I have 21 days to get it sorted.

Many thanks x

What happened exactly on the day? Did you or did you not have a valid ticket for the journey undertaken?

grecco1 said:

I was found guilty in absentia by a court in sheffield.

if they didn't take you to court within 6 months, the case they had against you would expire and you were safe. Is there a similar expiration date before which they NEED to get to you into court (this penalty is 11 months old).

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When was the court hearing in Sheffield? I suspect that was within 6 months, so your 11 month argument falls over there.

The hearing doesn't even need to be within six months, as long as the case was lodged with the court within six months iirc.

grecco1 said:

Hey,

I received a letter yesterday dated 19th June 2015 titled 'Further steps notice' telling me I owed £422.15 from the South Yorkshire Enforcement Unit. I have had zero contact with the police so baffled, I rang up the number and was told that I dodged a rail fare last August (2014) - so 11 months ago. I was found guilty in absentia by a court in sheffield.

So what they know:
I was supposedly caught without a ticket travelling from Leeds to London. The address given was to my old student house in Leeds.

What I know:
As a recent graduate, I've moved around quite a bit so I presume the court summons and the initial penalty fare simply got lost in the post.
I remember losing my wallet on a journey a while ago and having to give my details to pay a fine or something ages ago.
I may have forgot to buy a ticket on a journey, but how can the rail company prove beyond any doubt it was me and not somebody else that gave this address? (long shot...)

Anyway - does anyone have any advice on how to proceed. Ideally I would like to not pay anything (poor graduate) and I really really would like to NOT have a criminal conviction!

I have been told I need to call my local magistrate's court in London, swear a statutory oath that I never received the prior court summons etc, then my penalty will be voided, but I will receive a NEW court date where I will have to plead guilty/not guilty. Silly question but how serious is this? What are the risks of pleading not guilty? Should I talk to a lawyer? I wouldn't mind paying a hundred quid or so penalty but £422.15 is literally unfeasible at this moment. Are they any loopholes I could explore? I remember hearing that with regards to TFL, if they didn't take you to court within 6 months, the case they had against you would expire and you were safe. Is there a similar expiration date before which they NEED to get to you into court (this penalty is 11 months old).

Any help is massively appreciated.. I have 21 days to get it sorted.

Many thanks x

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Are you saying you didn't make the journey suggested in the documentation? Are you saying someone assumed your identity?

I don't think any harm can come of a statutory declaration if as you say this is the first you've heard of it. It's not claiming innocence - just that you didn't have the chance to appear in court.

As to the incident: you say you remember making that journey, and didn't have a ticket for whatever reason, and had your details taken. This would not have been a Penalty Fare, as East Coast (now Virgin) did/do not operate a PF scheme, but either a Travel Irregularity Report (for later examination and a decision on how to deal with it) or an UnPaid Fares Notice (essentially an invoice for the fare; no further action taken as long as it's paid).

I think that, following a statutory declaration, you would need to find out what the original action taken by EC was. I assume that Virgin Trains East Coast would now deal with the matter, not certain though. If an UPFN, then VTEC may accept the original fare due (which would be around £100: the Anytime Single is currently £112) plus a contribution to their costs incurred during the delay.

If EC's original position was prosecution, or a settlement cannot be reached, then you'd still be looking at paying the fare due, plus a fine imposed by the court. Pleading not guilty if you did make the journey would be a mistake. Depending on the legislation used, you may be guilty simply by virtue of not showing a valid ticket.

IANAL but I think the £422.15 is likely to be higher than the original fine if you missed the original payment dates. Also if you are on low or no income then a fine would take this into account; you may also have the option to pay in instalments I believe.

grecco1 said:

What I know:
As a recent graduate, I've moved around quite a bit so I presume the court summons and the initial penalty fare simply got lost in the post.
I remember losing my wallet on a journey a while ago and having to give my details to pay a fine or something ages ago.
I may have forgot to buy a ticket on a journey, but how can the rail company prove beyond any doubt it was me and not somebody else that gave this address? (long shot...)

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I'm going to be the cynical one again, this looks like another "ignore it and it'll go away" story. There is probably more to this than we have been told.

You can make a Statutory Declaration if you knew nothing about the proceedings. As has been said, this just sets the conviction aside and allows the whole process to start again.

This being the case, I would expect the prosecuting authority (the railway company) to get in touch and tell you what you've been charged with and setting a new court date.

I have no idea whether they will offer some form of out of court settlement. But I guess they will have built up a fair amount of costs which I assume they'll want to recoup.

As to whether to plead guilty or not guilty, it depends on whether you are guilty or not. If the August date ties in with the journey where you lost your wallet, then I'm assuming the railway company wrote to you and you never replied because you moved - hence the court summons. You need to be aware that is some personal responsibility in all this. For example, there would be an expectation that if you moved you would put a postal redirection in place.

The main thing to remember if you plead not guilty and are actually found guilty by the court after a trial, is that costs and fines are higher (in terms of fines it's really the other way round where you fine will be lower for pleading guilty saving the cost of a trial but that's splitting hairs.

I would also recommend getting organised, get any relevant paperwork together, check diaries etc.

If you honestly had no awareness of the court case, make a stat dec to that effect, that will reset things a bit.

If you honestly did not travel, that should be your defence

If you really did travel and dodge a fare (and I'm sure you'd know if you did - you'd have had an unpleasant experience with a member of railway staff) then you should offer to make things right with the railway company.

What is it about students/graduates and fare evasion? You'd think that given they are supposed to be educated or in the process of getting educated that they would know better.

Agent_c said:

If you really did travel and dodge a fare (and I'm sure you'd know if you did - you'd have had an unpleasant experience with a member of railway staff)

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The OP has effectively admitted as much...

grecco1 said:

I remember losing my wallet on a journey a while ago and having to give my details to pay a fine or something ages ago.

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I know I shouldn't be making this judgment but it sounds like OP did travel, got an unpaid fare notice or Travel Irregularity report, hoped it would go away by moving and not updating his address to the East Coast prosecutions department and as he says above doesn't want to pay anything now.

If it genuinely isn't you or you didn't know about the case then make the statutory declaration asap, it has been mentioned you can ring your local court to arrange to do this.

If it was you, there will be a financial cost, so I would get rid of the idea of paying nothing if that were the case.

On the staff paperwork, there will be a description of you written on their documentation, so they will be able to tell who it is.

Depending on how they verified your details, (whether a driving license etc), was produced too - it's all recorded.

I'm a bit concerned at your reasoning which starts with the impossibility of paying £422 and then works back to find ways of avoiding it. It's already a charge payable to HM Court Services by way of a sentence for a criminal Offence for which you have already been found Guilty. That is a fact.
You presumably did commit the offence, (though I appreaciate that you are reticent in declaring that on here as a fact).

It might be prudent at this stage to look at means of discharging your liability before Baliffs are instructed to take your posessions (and who will value them at a lower cost than if you sold them with a bit of intelligence before they arrive). There's no shortage of jobs at low wages - it should only take 4 or 5 weeks to earn that in part time work. Please start looking immediately.

Just by way of a caution, if you make a Statutory Declaration that you were unaware of the Court proceedings against you, then please be aware that a) any false statement (such as knowing there was unopened correspondence from the Court waiting for you) when you actually were aware, amounts to a Contempt of Court (which carries a custodial sentence), and b) if there was adequate Evidence to demonstrate your Guilt to the Court when you were absent, then the same Evidence is likely to lead to the same conclusion in your presence, UNLESS you have any compelling Evidence or Witnesses who are likely to change the Magistrates' decision.

If you DO decide to make a Statutory Declaration and can show that you really had no knowledge of the Proceedings, but have nothing in the way of Evidence to demonstrate your innocence, then all you will do is increase the Prosecution's costs which, on finding you Guilty a second time, will be charged to you again - leaving you with a bigger cost to pay.

I'd sell some of those posessions now. Then take on some low-paid work (agricultural / cleaning / driving / gardening / kitchen / etc.) to make that £422 easy to pay.

Mag_seven said:

What is it about students/graduates and fare evasion? You'd think that given they are supposed to be educated or in the process of getting educated that they would know better.

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Most students cry poverty as a reason for it, but when you add a 14 hr part time job to the student loan for living expenses, I ended up with almost as much cash (during non summer months) as I did when working full time.

Too much beer, and not enough responsibility I think.
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DaleCooper said:

The OP has effectively admitted as much...

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I didn't see that bit, I was more concerned with this

I may have forgot to buy a ticket on a journey, but how can the rail company prove beyond any doubt it was me and not somebody else that gave this address? (long shot...)

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If he did do it, then as a matter of ethics, the OP shouldn't be looking to evidentiary burden as a cop out.

Just to go back to the original journey, did your journey start at Leeds or on a connecting train to Leeds, where you changed for the East Coast train to London?

When you lost your wallet, had you already bought your ticket? If so how did you pay? Was it booking office, TVM or online?

DaleCooper said:

I'm going to be the cynical one again, this looks like another "ignore it and it'll go away" story. There is probably more to this than we have been told.

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The 'how can the rail company prove beyond any doubt it was me and not somebody else that gave this address? (long shot...)' bit makes me think this is fishing to see if there's a way of using very suggestion as a defence.

Hence confirming to me, at least, that the OP knew exactly what happened and hoped that moving would be all that was required to sort the problem. He won't be the first or last person to not appreciate how easy it is to trace people these days, unless someone decides to go completely off net and live in a cave.

The 'long shot' bit certainly reads to me like the OP is actually hoping someone will say 'No, they can't prove beyond any doubt' and encourage the OP to go down the denying all knowledge route.

As has already been said, that could have rather tragic consequences.

Given a few people have had very similar stories of late, I do have to wonder if there's another forum (a student forum perhaps) that is actually suggesting things like this, and recommending people come here for tips to get them off.

Thank you for all your replies.

Sorry I wasn't entirely honest in my original post, I had just found out about the situation and wanted to get some general feedback on the situation without definitively stating all he details on an online forum before getting legal advice. I came across as just trying to slink out of the situation because frankly I didn't realise the severity of the whole thing.

I did dodge the fare. I needed to get to London ASAP from Leeds and I didn't have enough money to pay the ticket. When I got caught by the conductor, I burst into tears and told him I couldn't pay the fare. I then gave him my details and he said I could pay within 21 days. He was quite amicable about it. I never received anything in the post, and consequently forgot about the whole thing until its come back to bite me in the bum 11 months later. I thought he'd let me off.

This is now much less about money and much more about clearing my name. It will affect by career having a criminal record. So in order to move forward, I'm going to swear a statutory declaration as I really had no idea that this was going on. However, I am guilty. So regardless of if we re-start court proceedings, does this mean having dodged the fare I am going to have a criminal record? But if I had received the original penalty letter I would have paid up! I don't want to be in trouble and I fully admit it was a foolish and wrong thing to do. But this would have not gone to court had I paid the penalty, correct? A transport lawyer I spoke with yesterday suggested settling out of court with the rail company, but this would entail having to pay all of their legal fees and as they have been building a case against me since last August, this could be in the thousands of pounds? I will of course pay a few hundred pounds to cover the penalty etc but does anyone have any advice re: not having a criminal record without spending thousands? How can I prove that I never received any of the communication before hand? It sounds unbelievable even to me. I don't want to pull the poor student card, but I am currently studying for my masters (no student loads are available, self funded through work), I don't have very much money.

jonmorris0844 said:

Given a few people have had very similar stories of late, I do have to wonder if there's another forum (a student forum perhaps) that is actually suggesting things like this, and recommending people come here for tips to get them off.

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I'm afraid you are correct. I came across a forum of lawyers or trainee lawyers who had all committed dodged TFL fares and rail fares and were terrified about getting de-barred. The tone of their conversations was more trying to get out of the situation by using legal loopholes and claiming innocence..

grecco1 said:

I did dodge the fare. I needed to get to London ASAP from Leeds and I didn't have enough money to pay the ticket. When I got caught by the conductor, I burst into tears and told him I couldn't pay the fare. I then gave him my details and he said I could pay within 21 days. He was quite amicable about it. I never received anything in the post, and consequently forgot about the whole thing until its come back to bite me in the bum 11 months later. I thought he'd let me off.

This is now much less about money and much more about clearing my name. It will affect by career having a criminal record. So in order to move forward, I'm going to swear a statutory declaration as I really had no idea that this was going on. However, I am guilty. So regardless of if we re-start court proceedings, does this mean having dodged the fare I am going to have a criminal record? But if I had received the original penalty letter I would have paid up! I don't want to be in trouble and I fully admit it was a foolish and wrong thing to do. But this would have not gone to court had I paid the penalty, correct? A transport lawyer I spoke with yesterday suggested settling out of court with the rail company, but this would entail having to pay all of their legal fees and as they have been building a case against me since last August, this could be in the thousands of pounds? I will of course pay a few hundred pounds to cover the penalty etc but does anyone have any advice re: not having a criminal record without spending thousands? How can I prove that I never received any of the communication before hand? It sounds unbelievable even to me. I don't want to pull the poor student card, but I am currently studying for my masters (no student loads are available, self funded through work), I don't have very much money.

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I am sorry to say that this still does not add up. In stating that you were told you had 21 days to pay, you pretty much confirm that you were issued with an Unpaid Fares Notice. This would have required that you were issued with the top copy of that at the time, so you knew you were not being let off. The absolute minimum you are required to pay in any circumstances is the fare which, for an Anytime Single, will have been just over the £100 mark. With costs the total of £422 really doesn't sound too bad so bear in mind that you would perhaps be lucky to end up any better off, and may not even avoid the conviction.

grecco1 said:

A transport lawyer I spoke with yesterday suggested settling out of court with the rail company, but this would entail having to pay all of their legal fees and as they have been building a case against me since last August, this could be in the thousands of pounds? I will of course pay a few hundred pounds to cover the penalty etc but does anyone have any advice re: not having a criminal record without spending thousands?

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It may well be true that an Out of Court settlement will now entail paying many hundreds of pounds in costs. BUT, if you don't and let it go back to Court, then the Prosecution will still be asking for their costs (presumably even higher by then), as well as you being fined by the Court. It will be most likely to cost you more the second time round, even if you offer an early Guilty plea.

grecco1 said:

How can I prove that I never received any of the communication before hand? It sounds unbelievable even to me. I don't want to pull the poor student card, but I am currently studying for my masters (no student loads are available, self funded through work), I don't have very much money.

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You don't have to prove it. You make a sworn Statutory Declaration of the fact under severe penalties (incl. imprisonment) for making a false Declaration.

Your means will be considered when determining the level of fine. But as I and others have previously advised you, I strongly recommend you to take on some additional paid work a.s.a.p. and less effort into finding loopholes which probably aren't going to assist you if indeed you do find one.

If I were in the OPs position I would pay up and not gamble on things getting better, after all it looks like that strategy has failed once.

As for the money; every young person these days seem to have an iPhone or iPad and spend a fortune on Starbucks coffee and bottled water. Perhaps if the OP started adding up the cost of some of these non-essential items they would see a way to pay their fine and their train fares.

DaleCooper said:

If I were in the OPs position I would pay up and not gamble on things getting better, after all it looks like that strategy has failed once.

As for the money; every young person these days seem to have an iPhone or iPad and spend a fortune on Starbucks coffee and bottled water. Perhaps if the OP started adding up the cost of some of these non-essential items they would see a way to pay their fine and their train fares.

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While I don't know if the OP has the kind of disposable income you mention, I totally agree that the best strategy at this point is figuring out how to pay the fine, rather than trying to get out of it via a loophole (which almost certainly doesn't exist!)

grecco1 said:

I'm afraid you are correct. I came across a forum of lawyers or trainee lawyers who had all committed dodged TFL fares and rail fares and were terrified about getting de-barred. The tone of their conversations was more trying to get out of the situation by using legal loopholes and claiming innocence..

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Which would tie in with what we see on this forum...

Dave, should they run a class on this in Law School?

grecco1 said:

The tone of their conversations was more trying to get out of the situation by using legal loopholes and claiming innocence..

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Isn't that what we expect of solicitors?
(With apologies to you know who)

Haywain said:

I am sorry to say that this still does not add up. In stating that you were told you had 21 days to pay, you pretty much confirm that you were issued with an Unpaid Fares Notice. This would have required that you were issued with the top copy of that at the time, so you knew you were not being let off. The absolute minimum you are required to pay in any circumstances is the fare which, for an Anytime Single, will have been just over the £100 mark. With costs the total of £422 really doesn't sound too bad so bear in mind that you would perhaps be lucky to end up any better off, and may not even avoid the conviction.

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^^^ this^^^

It sounds like you were given an unpaid fare notice (which is merely a bill for the ticket you should have bought) which you are supposed to take to a station ticket office and pay within 21 days, there isn't anything else to receive in the post.
Did you not bother reading it, it is quite self explanatory what you have to do.

Because you didn't pay the bill you have been treated as a fare dodger because that is exactly what you are, all the bull abut not receiving anything is basically because you didn't keep up your end of the deal.

I really don't see why the TOC should be out of pocket on this and they will probably just reschedule the Court date (which they will win as you failed to pay the UFN and so the TOC withdrew the offer, you cant just pay the fare now) and they will then go for both sets of costs which will probably be a few hundred quid plus the fare you dodged plus the Court imposed fine and so you are probably going to be looking at £500 or more.

My advice is pay the £422 fine now (borrow or beg the money/get a small bank loan) because you could end up owing more!

Edit-
The TOCs and Courts have heard your story hundreds of times and wont give your non payment and subsequent move (without having your mail forwarded :roll much time.

@OP - contact the company on the letter head and agree a staged payment plan. There is no other realistic option.

OK - I have taken all of this on board.

I am going to swear the statutory declaration because I truly received no previous communication and I really had no idea there were criminal proceedings going on against me.

Is there anyway I could emerge from this situation WITHOUT a criminal record? I am guilty of not paying the penalty but had I received the earlier communication regarding this, it surely never would have been brought to court? to an extent, the severity of the situation has escalated for reasons beyond my control.

If I arrange an out of court settlement with East Coast, regardless of how much it costs, will I keep my clean record?

Thanks

grecco1 said:

OK - I have taken all of this on board.

I am going to swear the statutory declaration because I truly received no previous communication and I really had no idea there were criminal proceedings going on against me.

Is there anyway I could emerge from this situation WITHOUT a criminal record? I am guilty of not paying the penalty but had I received the earlier communication regarding this, it surely never would have been brought to court? to an extent, the severity of the situation has escalated for reasons beyond my control.

If I arrange an out of court settlement with East Coast, regardless of how much it costs, will I keep my clean record?

Thanks

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I doubt VTEC would want to settle.

DarloRich:2237760 said:

@OP - contact the company on the letter head and agree a staged payment plan. There is no other realistic option.

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Surely it'd be the court with whom a plan would need to be arranged, because this is a fine? Unless you mean do the stat dec and then try to offer a settlement based on monthly payments? Not sure how well that would go down...