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Splitting 1st class when there aren't 1st fares all the way

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Marton

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Hi

I was looking at whether a spit would work for a journey and whilst there are trains with first there are no first class fares usually where the TOC responsible is Northern. One example is Middlesbrough to Newcastle by using EC or XC when planning a longer journey to Glasgow or the North.

Another one I have seen, not for a split, is Middlesbrough to Harrogate; the only first fare is a season, but the journey is mostly with TPE.

How can one proceed, or is it impossible to travel first in these situations?
 
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syorksdeano

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Have I just had a conversation with you from Darlington to Sheffield?

I only ask because we was discussing the same issue on the train coming down
 

Starmill

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Is your question 'Can I split tickets?'. If so you're in luck - yes!

I can't understand what else you're asking I'm afraid.
 

CyrusWuff

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I think the question boils down to: "Can I use split tickets to travel in First Class with TOC A (which sets the through fare), when TOC B (which sets the intermediate fares) doesn't set any First Class fares for the relevant flows?"

The examples given being Middlesbrough - Glasgow (no First Class fares exist for Middlesbrough - Newcastle) and Middlesbrough - Harrogate (only First Class fare being a Season).

I would suggest the answer would be no, at least not without paying an Excess (or for Weekend First where available)...Though the Excess would wipe out the money saved by splitting as it'd be for the through fare (assuming one exists).
 

Starmill

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What happens where someone boards a train and sits in First Class, travelling directly to a station where there is no First Class fare to?

For example, Beverley to Hull.

The answer in that particular case, is that they can travel in First with a Standard ticket because there's nothing to upgrade them to. I assume the same must apply elsewhere, e.g. Skipton to Leeds.

Unfortunately, this does not apply to the OP's situation, because there is a through First Class fare. I'm a little bemused as to what they're hoping to gain!
 

First class

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What happens where someone boards a train and sits in First Class, travelling directly to a station where there is no First Class fare to?

For example, Beverley to Hull.

The answer in that particular case, is that they can travel in First with a Standard ticket because there's nothing to upgrade them to. I assume the same must apply elsewhere, e.g. Skipton to Leeds.

Unfortunately, this does not apply to the OP's situation, because there is a through First Class fare. I'm a little bemused as to what they're hoping to gain!

No! The answer is definitely that they MUST sit in Standard Class only.

Some short journeys are deiberately priced with no first class fares to enable long distance customers to enjoy their seat- and not be filled up with local, cheap first class fares.
 

Merseysider

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What happens where someone boards a train and sits in First Class, travelling directly to a station where there is no First Class fare to?

For example, Beverley to Hull.

The answer in that particular case, is that they can travel in First with a Standard ticket because there's nothing to upgrade them to. I assume the same must apply elsewhere, e.g. Skipton to Leeds.

Unfortunately, this does not apply to the OP's situation, because there is a through First Class fare. I'm a little bemused as to what they're hoping to gain!
Some, but not all, ticket issuing systems allow manual fare creation. If someone really wanted to travel 1st class for 13 minutes between Beverley and Hull I'm sure a workaround could be found.

The lack of a 1st class fare wouldn't stop you being byelaw 19'd or penalty fared mind you, if you sat in 1st with a standard ticket.
 

Starmill

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No! The answer is definitely that they MUST sit in Standard Class only.

Some short journeys are deiberately priced with no first class fares to enable long distance customers to enjoy their seat- and not be filled up with local, cheap first class fares.

I'm afraid that's not the case. Unless you you've made such journeys with Standard tickets and been removed from First Class? In which case I'm sure we could assist with a complaint.
 

First class

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I'm afraid that's not the case. Unless you you've made such journeys with Standard tickets and been removed from First Class? In which case I'm sure we could assist with a complaint.

That is the case and you will soon come unstuck if you think you can travel In designated first class coaches just because there is no first class fare!

You need to stop preaching incorrect information that can result in a criminal conviction.
 
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clagmonster

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I'm afraid that's not the case. Unless you you've made such journeys with Standard tickets and been removed from First Class? In which case I'm sure we could assist with a complaint.
Lets go through condition 39:
"39. Travelling in first class accommodation with a standard class ticket
If you have a standard class ticket (other than a Season Ticket), no standard class
accommodation is available, and staff on that train give their permission, then you may
travel in first class accommodation (or the equivalent) where this is available without extra
charge."
Let's assume standard class accommodation is available, as it almost certainly will be in your Beverley - Hull and Skipton - Leeds examples.

"On-train staff will not give you permission to use first class accommodation (or the
equivalent) unless they are satisfied that it is not required by anyone with a first class
ticket and the standard class accommodation on the train is full. This permission may be
withdrawn if a person holding a first class ticket requires the accommodation during your
journey or standard class accommodation becomes available."
Again, I can't see standard being full in your two examples.

"If you have a standard class ticket and you travel in first class accommodation without
permission (which includes occupying seats or standing in any part of the carriage), you
will have to pay:
(i) the difference between the price of that ticket and the price of the first class
ticket for the accommodation you have used; or
(ii) where Condition 4 (b) applies, you may be charged a Penalty Fare.
If you have a standard class Season Ticket, you may only travel in first class
accommodation (which includes occupying seats or standing in any part of the carriage) if:
(a) the difference between the full single fare for first class accommodation and the
full single fare for standard class accommodation has been paid before your
journey starts;
(b) any other relevant supplement set out in the notices and other publications of the
Train Companies has been paid before your journey starts;
(c) notices are displayed allowing passengers with standard class tickets to use first
class accommodation; or
(d) on-train ticket staff have given you permission. In all other cases, if you travel in
first class accommodation (or the equivalent) with a standard class Season Ticket,
you will be treated as having joined the train without a valid ticket and Condition 2
or 4 will apply"
In any case you would need to ask permission. You can't just sit there

"19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in
any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is
reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class,
except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place. "
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf
I see no reason why this byelaw shouldn't apply.

Do you have a source stating that you may sit in first class accommodation with a standard class ticket just because there is no first class fare?
 

Starmill

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I made no claims, you did and I refuted them. Some train companies might have decided they want to prosecute people who'd like to travel in First Class, fortunately Hull Trains are not in the business of such ridiculous practices, and until the database has been updated to include First Class they will just issue standard tickets, because there is no reasonable alternative :)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Some, but not all, ticket issuing systems allow manual fare creation. If someone really wanted to travel 1st class for 13 minutes between Beverley and Hull I'm sure a workaround could be found.

A workaround is found by HT - to issue a Standard ticket! They don't do Penalty Fares and aren't interested in wanton criminal prosecution like some in this thread would have you believe.
 

30907

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I made no claims, you did and I refuted them.

"Refuted" only to the extent that you have asserted (on the basis of evidence) that Hull Trains are content for standard class passengers to travel first class from Beverley to Hull.

I don't think you can deduce a general rule from that, and I would be particularly surprised if it applied to the 0655 Skipton-Leeds.
 

First class

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As advised again, your thoughts are wrong. Even on Hull Trains. A single guard being very generous does not create any evidence etc.

The NRCoC, Byelaws and Penalty Fare ruies all describe the official and only view of the TOCs.

There are some routes that we do not want short distance first class fares on because we would like our long distance customers to be able to find a seat easily etc. We therefore do not set a First Class fare, especially when accomodation is limited compared to standard.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I will however arrange for FDS/FDR tickets to be added to the Hull route you mention. These will apply from Sept.
 

Flamingo

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I will however arrange for FDS/FDR tickets to be added to the Hull route you mention. These will apply from Sept.
Now that's what I like to see - an example of a service-oriented rail industry responding to customers demands <D
 

Ianigsy

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It's a bugbear of mine that there isn't a first class fare for the journey I make most often- Leeds to Birkenhead North- and that if I wish to travel in first class on the Leeds-Liverpool leg I have to forego the benefit of through ticketing. Not very helpful when travelling on Christmas Eve and I don't know when I'll be getting out of work!

And that's before I get on to the absence of any advances for the same journey- the current off peak return is £35.70, so once you take out £6-odd for a couple of Merseyrail singles, any Leeds-Liverpool advances need to be £14 or less to be worthwhile in view of the loss of flexibility. As I'm usually travelling from work on a Friday evening and for family occasions organised at short notice, this is rarely the case!
 

First class

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It's a bugbear of mine that there isn't a first class fare for the journey I make most often- Leeds to Birkenhead North- and that if I wish to travel in first class on the Leeds-Liverpool leg I have to forego the benefit of through ticketing. Not very helpful when travelling on Christmas Eve and I don't know when I'll be getting out of work!

And that's before I get on to the absence of any advances for the same journey- the current off peak return is £35.70, so once you take out £6-odd for a couple of Merseyrail singles, any Leeds-Liverpool advances need to be £14 or less to be worthwhile in view of the loss of flexibility. As I'm usually travelling from work on a Friday evening and for family occasions organised at short notice, this is rarely the case!

According to starmill - don't worry. Just buy a standard class ticket and sit in first class. Nothing is going to happen to you, because there is no First Class fare :roll: (in his fantasy world).

In actual fact, you are doing the correct thing. Some journeys require multiple tickets.

You need to contact the fare setter, in this instance FTPE and request that they create a First Class through fare, probably priced around £86.00.
 

Merseysider

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It's a bugbear of mine that there isn't a first class fare for the journey I make most often- Leeds to Birkenhead North- and that if I wish to travel in first class on the Leeds-Liverpool leg I have to forego the benefit of through ticketing. Not very helpful when travelling on Christmas Eve and I don't know when I'll be getting out of work!

And that's before I get on to the absence of any advances for the same journey- the current off peak return is £35.70, so once you take out £6-odd for a couple of Merseyrail singles, any Leeds-Liverpool advances need to be £14 or less to be worthwhile in view of the loss of flexibility. As I'm usually travelling from work on a Friday evening and for family occasions organised at short notice, this is rarely the case!
I think that's more of an oversight by TPE than anything else.

I'd approach this by:

a) buying the through ticket LDS-BKN and asking the guard to charge the difference as an excess on the LDS-LIV leg only (some will, some won't), or
b) buying a season at the rate of £178.50/week and hand it back in for a refund after the journey if it's not needed for the rest of the week. Minus £10, but may work out to a reasonable price, or
c) buy a through 1st class return ticket Leeds-Bache at £93.40 or £46.70 single. That would leave only BKQ-BKN to buy.
 
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reb0118

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b) buying a season at the rate of £178.50/week and hand it back in for a refund after the journey if it's not needed for the rest of the week. Minus £10, but may work out to a reasonable price, or

Can you get a refund on a 7DS after you have used it?
 

clagmonster

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A workaround is found by HT - to issue a Standard ticket! They don't do Penalty Fares and aren't interested in wanton criminal prosecution like some in this thread would have you believe.
As a matter of interest, what is your source for this? Is it:
a) written confirmation from the company
b) the actions of one / some guards
c) something else I've not thought of
 

Merseysider

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Can you get a refund on a 7DS after you have used it?
Good question - I just thought any season forfeited before expiry incurred a £10 admin fee offset against a proportional refund. Happy to be corrected though.
 

clagmonster

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I will however arrange for FDS/FDR tickets to be added to the Hull route you mention. These will apply from Sept.
Very good of you to listen to passenger feedback. Now what's the betting that the next line is that people want a first class ticket for something like Beverley-Hessle and that there is no fare. Or have you got that sort of cunning plan covered?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Can you get a refund on a 7DS after you have used it?
"Any refund is calculated from the date the Season Ticket was handed in. It will be the difference between the price you paid and the cost of a ticket or tickets for the period for which you have actually used the ticket, plus an administration charge. Because of the discounts on longer term Season Tickets, refunds are not made pro rata to the periods before/after surrender and Annual Season Tickets have no refund value after about 10 1/2 months. For this reason we recommend that employers' Annual Season Ticket loan schemes are set up so that reimbursements are made in 10 equal monthly payments with two 'free' months at the end of the year, rather than in 12 equal monthly payments.
There must be at least seven days remaining on a Monthly Season Ticket or at least three days remaining on a 7 Day Season Ticket to obtain a refund (although on some 7 Day Season Tickets there may be no refund value after three days of use, dependent upon the relevant Standard Day Return price."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46571.aspx

So in this case, the refund would be £178.50 (the cost of the ticket) minus whatever the clerk considers the cost of the ticket for the one day, which is an unknown as there isn't actually a fare, then minus the £10 admin fee. Surely better to get the same clerk to sell whatever he considers the first class fare to be in the same place and save the tenner.
 

reb0118

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Can you get a refund on a 7DS after you have used it?

Yes you can, you need three or more days validity left. A return fare is subtracted for each day of use and then the admin fee is added:-

In this case you would spend £178.50 on a 7DS but would get £85.30 back if you handed it in after one day's use.
 

Starmill

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There are some routes that we do not want short distance first class fares on because we would like our long distance customers to be able to find a seat easily etc. We therefore do not set a First Class fare, especially when accomodation is limited compared to standard.

Ah, I see we are playing the 'I'm right because I know what the train company intended' game again then! You should have said :p
 

reb0118

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Surely better to get the same clerk to sell whatever he considers the first class fare to be in the same place and save the tenner.

Correct, if there is no through first class fare then one way to do this would be to charge the full anytime standard return for the full journey plus the difference between the first and standard returns for the portion that has first class fares. Other options may also be available.
 

Ianigsy

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Appreciate the comments above- I probably should have added that when I've booked first class Leeds-Liverpool on Christmas Eve, I usually get an advance single in Standard on the way back because I'm nearly always travelling on a Sunday or Bank Holiday and I'm one of these awkward people who object to paying for first class when there's no at seat service.

Sounds as if I would however be within my rights to go to Leeds travel centre nearer the time and ask for a Standard return from Leeds-Birkenhead North and to excess the outward leg from Leeds to Liverpool. This is useful, thanks. I can't help thinking that the 7 day season suggested might arouse suspicion if I turned up asking for a new one on Christmas Eve! Come to think of it, I wouldn't be able to hand it back for a refund until the 27th at the earliest anyway.
 

bb21

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You can certainly ask, but I don't think they are obliged to perform the excess calculation as excessing for part of the journey is certainly not one that has any rules laid out for all staff to follow. Some TOCs will allow it and others not. It is not "within your rights" to be sold it.

If you want to have a guaranteed First Class seat, the only way I can see is to split.
 

Starmill

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A lot of ticket office staff will probably take a while to even understand the request because it is so unorthodox, let alone know how to actually perform an excess that has close to the desired effect. It will probably occur to most after they've looked up your journey to do a normal First Class excess and they realise they can't that they might end up doing something that could attract interest, and that may result in concern for you based on what the person who checks the ticket might say (e.g. there is one well-known guard who TIRs people for Single > Return excesses) or depending on location and company, what their manager might say. However, as this is Merseyside, you could visit several different ticket offices and might end up with the weird and wonderful! Be prepared for a lot of nos though.
 
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