"Duty" to seek out the guard (again!)

Chouette · 19 Jul 2015

Traditionally, passengers using unstaffed stations across Wales took a seat in the train and waited for the guard to come through with a portable ticket machine.

Now ATW says the onus is on passengers to walk through the train to find the guard.

Failure to comply with the rules could land passengers with a £70 administration fee.

Full article here: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/you-could-now-fined-70-9686588

As far as I can tell, this is just bad reporting of business as usual. I use an ATW unstaffed station with no TVM, and I certainly won't be banging on the door of the back cab to insist on being sold a ticket next time I travel. But does anyone know the actual source for this report?

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Ianigsy · 19 Jul 2015

All well and good assuming your train isn't 2x142, 143 or 175...

bb21 · 19 Jul 2015

That website strikes me as a close relative to the Metro. Enough said about the quality of reporting I think.

The "report" is all over the places.

ryan125hst · 19 Jul 2015

Wales Online said:
It's now your responsibility to actively seek out a guard to buy a ticket if you do have to board a train without one. Passengers who board trains without tickets could face a £70 sting if they dont actively seek a guard, Arriva Trains Wales managers have warned.

Customers will be treated as fare dodgers if they fail to find a member of staff themselves, according to new procedures.

The service provider has also advised customers to use new ticket vending machines at unstaffed platforms. Traditionally, passengers using unstaffed stations across Wales took a seat in the train and waited for the guard to come through with a portable ticket machine.

Now ATW says the onus is on passengers to walk through the train to find the guard.

Failure to comply with the rules could land passengers with a £70 administration fee.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/you-could-now-fined-70-9686588

I think this is absolutely ridiculous! I don't think the guard will be too impressed if 30 people are queuing up by the rear cab door waiting to buy a ticket, especially if there's only a few minutes until the next station and people are blocking his access to the local door controls. And what happens when the train is full and standing? Will they still fine you even though it might be impossible to walk down the train? And what about those with disabilities, if the passenger is wheelchair bound for example?

Is this really enforceable? As long as you pay at the first opportunity, you have done nothing wrong is what I thought the effectively said. Am I wrong? Have they been changed?

Wales Online said:
One concerned rail user, who asked not to be named, said ATW was effectively requiring passengers to carry cards.

A friend of his who had not used a card-only vending machine was charged £70 after a journey of less than three minutes in a packed train.

This definitely isn't fair. You could have £100 cash on you but no card, yet get fined because you were unable to pay for your ticket at the machine! I hope other TOC's don't join ATW with this!

Your thoughts please

First class · 19 Jul 2015

Bottom line is that if you have failed to use the station facilities*, then if you don't go and seek out the guard - then you will be prosecuted.

You don't have to seek out the guard, but it is certainly in your interest.

*Assuming the facilities are acceptable.

Although the machines are largely card only - if you try and pay at your destination with a card then tough.

Hadders · 19 Jul 2015

collector said:
Bottom line is that if you have failed to use the station facilities*, then if you don't go and seek out the guard - then you will be prosecuted.

You don't have to seek out the guard, but it is certainly in your interest.

*Assuming the facilities are acceptable.

Although the machines are largely card only - if you try and pay at your destination with a card then tough.

I agree that passengers should have a ticket before travelling but train companies cannot have it both ways - they must ensure there are sufficient and suitable facilities at all stations. To do anything else sends out a mixed message which just confuses passengers.

What about 'on-line' cards which we know don't work in Avantix Mobile machines. Surely someone trying to pay with such a card at their destination should not be penalised.

We keep getting told by guards on this forum that revenue is not their primary concern so is there a danger that trains could become unsafe if they have to deal with a constant stream of passengers trying to purchase tickets

sheff1 · 19 Jul 2015

Hadders said:
We keep getting told by guards on this forum that revenue is not their primary concern so is there a danger that trains could become unsafe if they have to deal with a constant stream of passengers trying to purchase tickets

Indeed and, as has been pointed out many times, if you went 'seeking out the guard' in Northern land you would be likely to get short shrift from both the guard and fellow travellers on the grounds of queue jumping, never mind safety. If everyone who boarded at unstaffed stations went up to the guard and demanded tickets before the next stop then, even if there were no safety implications, extensive delays would be the norm.

A couple of month ago, though, I saw a ticket seller (don't know the official title) on the Sheffield-Huddersfield service. This person seemingly had no duties other than selling tickets and managed to deal with everyone who boarded as far as I could tell. Those who got on with their money ready seemed well pleased, the 'chancers' less so ! I estimate that the normal guard would only have collected around 50% of the revenue available but, despite this, I have never seen another such ticket seller before or since.

bb21 · 19 Jul 2015

Northern have assistant ticket inspectors employed on several routes, including the Cumbrian Coast and Yorkshire Coast. I have also recently seen some working busy GM services. I have never seen one on the Penistone Line before. Maybe they are stepping up effort in collecting fares.

sheff1 · 19 Jul 2015

Ah, I very rarely use either line. The Hope Valley could certainly benefit - last week I guess around 75 % of people travelling between unstaffed stations were unable to buy tickets.

yorkie · 19 Jul 2015

If passengers board at a station without ticketing issuing facilities (and that includes, for example, card-only machines where the customer is paying in cash) there is no need to go seeking a Guard. If anyone from ATW is claiming otherwise, they need to be put right.

mbreckers · 19 Jul 2015

I remember once I was on a scotrail train and a lady got on at Prestwick Airport, and she woke the ticket examiner up from his nap to buy a ticket.

He was not best pleased

TUC · 19 Jul 2015

Given how keen TOCs are on never-ending messages about not leaving your luggage unattended, re they suggesting that they should leave it unattended after all in order to save the guard from using their legs?

yorkie · 19 Jul 2015

mbreckers said:
I remember once I was on a scotrail train and a lady got on at Prestwick Airport, and she woke the ticket examiner up from his nap to buy a ticket.

He was not best pleased

Are you sure about this? Where was the ticket examiner exactly?

mbreckers · 19 Jul 2015

yorkie said:
Are you sure about this? Where was the ticket examiner exactly?

He was in the front carriage, at the very front of the carriage in a four bay seat, that end of the train is always almost empty at that time of night (I know where he was cause that's my seat grrr (I like the quiet)) and he was snoring.

Why he was asleep I do not know, the train would have only left Ayr about ten minutes earlier, so either he was exhausted or wasn't well.

Starmill · 20 Jul 2015

bb21 said:
That website strikes me as a close relative to the Metro. Enough said about the quality of reporting I think.

The "report" is all over the places.

What concerns me is the source, not the people reporting on it.

This sort of attitude isn't what I'd like to hear from ATW - one might expect it elsewhere.

Somebody needs to rein them in when it comes to 'onus' on passengers to avoid prosecution.

From solid personal experience, if the guard isn't patrolling the train selling tickets, they are not going to sell you a ticket if you go and ask them for one, as there is a reason they are not selling tickets - if they have had time / could be bothered to announce about it or not. I suppose the one exception is where they announce that you are invited to come to queue at a certain part of the train if you would like to be served, but how often does that happen?
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bb21 said:
Northern have assistant ticket inspectors employed on several routes, including the Cumbrian Coast and Yorkshire Coast. I have also recently seen some working busy GM services. I have never seen one on the Penistone Line before. Maybe they are stepping up effort in collecting fares.

They've even started making it onto some evening trains out of central Manchester - although not past 2200, when they are really needed (partly because the ticket office has closed... :roll

I've also been getting a higher success rate in buying a ticket onboard, rather than at Piccadilly which is good.

Flamingo · 20 Jul 2015

I've NEVER met a guard who complained that a passenger approached then, cash in hand, saying "Can I buy a ticket mate?". The Guard might reply "Can you wait a minute, I just need to do this", but be it one or thirty passengers, I'd say that all the guards on here would agree with me, yes please!

ATW themselves have finally worked out that there are millions of pounds walking out the door, or short-faring every month, and are (at last) trying to reverse generations of a "Pay when challenged, and even then only the minimum if forced to" mentality from, I have to say, all classes using the train. It's not the drunken scrotes from the Valleys who do it, but the indignant housewifes and pensioners as well.

TUC · 20 Jul 2015

Flamingo said:
I've NEVER met a guard who complained that a passenger approached then, cash in hand, saying "Can I buy a ticket mate?". The Guard might reply "Can you wait a minute, I just need to do this", but be it one or thirty passengers, I'd say that all the guards on here would agree with me, yes please!

ATW themselves have finally worked out that there are millions of pounds walking out the door, or short-faring every month, and are (at last) trying to reverse generations of a "Pay when challenged, and even then only the minimum if forced to" mentality from, I have to say, all classes using the train. It's not the drunken scrotes from the Valleys who do it, but the indignant housewifes and pensioners as well.

But I still come back to, do you expect passengers to leave their bags, children etc. unattended and walk down the train looking for a guard?

Flamingo · 20 Jul 2015

TUC said:
But I still come back to, do you expect passengers to leave their bags, children etc. unattended and walk down the train looking for a guard?

For every person travelling with 14 children and 27 pieces of luggage, there are a dozen that have no excuse.

As regards what I expect, I expect people to make a reasonable effort to buy a ticket. I also expect (although this is a triumph of hope over experience) members on this forum not to make excuses for fare evasion, and roll out the Outrage Bus whenever a TOC tries to tackle it.

Might I refer both you and the OP to this thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2238593#post2238593

sheff1 · 20 Jul 2015

Flamingo said:
I've NEVER met a guard who complained that a passenger approached then, cash in hand, saying "Can I buy a ticket mate?". The Guard might reply "Can you wait a minute, I just need to do this", but be it one or thirty passengers, I'd say that all the guards on here would agree with me, yes please!

In these parts, regular travellers know the score and do not approach the guard but wait to be dealt with. I have, though, seen people (perhaps normally bus users ?) ask the guard for a ticket prior to taking a seat. They have been told to sit down and wait, sometimes with typical Yorkshire bluntness which would sound remakably like 'short shrift' to the uninitiated

Bletchleyite · 20 Jul 2015

Flamingo said:
As regards what I expect, I expect people to make a reasonable effort to buy a ticket. I also expect (although this is a triumph of hope over experience) members on this forum not to make excuses for fare evasion, and roll out the Outrage Bus whenever a TOC tries to tackle it.

The only thing that makes me wish to fare-dodge on the Outrage Bus with this (and Northern) is the unwillingness to use a proper Penalty Fares scheme to the appropriate Act of Parliament.

I think we've got far enough with ticketing technology that such a thing could arguably be implemented throughout the network nationally with the exception of a few clearly designated Paytrain routes and stations; this is the case on LM certainly.

The inconsistency whereby guards will flog you a ticket, but RPIs will write you up for prosecution, is just too inconsistent for my liking.

crehld · 20 Jul 2015

Flamingo said:
I've NEVER met a guard who complained that a passenger approached then, cash in hand, saying "Can I buy a ticket mate?". The Guard might reply "Can you wait a minute, I just need to do this", but be it one or thirty passengers, I'd say that all the guards on here would agree with me, yes please!

sheff1 said:
In these parts, regular travellers know the score and do not approach the guard but wait to be dealt with. I have, though, seen people (perhaps normally bus users ?) ask the guard for a ticket prior to taking a seat. They have been told to sit down and wait, sometimes with typical Yorkshire bluntness which would sound remakably like 'short shrift' to the uninitiated

I've come across a couple who quite strongly objected when, after having sat down for 15 minutes and no one passing through, I went to the back of the train and knocked on the cab door to ask for a ticket.

FenMan · 20 Jul 2015

crehld said:
I've come across a couple who quite strongly objected when, after having sat down for 15 minutes and no one passing through, I went to the back of the train and knocked on the cab door to ask for a ticket.

Ditto. It was a FGW train too!

Buttsy · 20 Jul 2015

I had an opposite situation recently. Got on a Cumbrian coast service at one of the request stops and when the guard was ready to sell me a ticket and when I requested a single to the next station, he waved away the money and didn't issue a ticket. I can only assume it was more trouble to him than it was worth. I thanked him profusely for his actions, both at the time and again on leaving the train (I was stood next to the controls he used to open the doors).

crehld · 20 Jul 2015

Flamingo said:
As regards what I expect, I expect people to make a reasonable effort to buy a ticket. I also expect (although this is a triumph of hope over experience) members on this forum not to make excuses for fare evasion, and roll out the Outrage Bus whenever a TOC tries to tackle it.

Might I refer both you and the OP to this thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2238593#post2238593

I don't think anyone has a problem with that proposition. It assumes, however, there is amble opportunity to buy before you board across the network... there is not. You work on a part of the network where ticket offices and TVMs are abound - enforcement is pretty clear cut here. Anyone boarding at a station with facilities to pay who has not paid is in the wrong. I guess this accounts for your pessimism when it comes to passengers without tickets.

The point is beyond FGW land many parts of the network lack these facilities and purchasing from the guard is the only way to get a ticket. When I board, I observe myself and my fellow passengers with cash / card in hand actively ready to pay. Tickets more often than not get checked at destinations and no one wants to pay at the other end as it's a massive inconvenience (have you seen the excess fares queue at Leeds??). About two thirds of the time a guard will come round and sell a ticket - everyone who boards gets sold a ticket (or, in rare cases, an awkward conversation). The other third of the time they do not. Sometimes the train is too packed. Sometimes the guard is busy with other duties. Sometimes the guard just doesn't want to sell tickets (yes, it happens!). This is not an excuse for fare evasion at all. Merely an observation (whether you like it or not) that it is not possible in all cases to buy before you board, and even on board in some cases.

If you want to have a system where you take the onus off on board staff to sell tickets, and to reduce abuse of the system which that situation can lead to, then providing ample opportunity to buy is a necessary starting point, and will make enforcement much more effective. The responsibility for this is with the railway industry, not passengers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

sheff1 said:
In these parts, regular travellers know the score and do not approach the guard but wait to be dealt with. I have, though, seen people (perhaps normally bus users ?) ask the guard for a ticket prior to taking a seat. They have been told to sit down and wait, sometimes with typical Yorkshire bluntness which would sound remakably like 'short shrift' to the uninitiated

Indeed, the convention in Northern land is take your seat and wait. Indeed, I think a couple of the stations nearby have signs telling you to sit down and wait for the conductor to come round and sell you a ticket.

Bletchleyite · 20 Jul 2015

crehld said:
If you want to have a system where you take the onus off on board staff to sell tickets, and to reduce abuse of the system which that situation can lead to, then providing ample opportunity to buy is a necessary starting point, and will make enforcement much more effective. The responsibility for this is with the railway industry, not passengers.

Indeed. One way to do this for very rural lines might be an on-board TVM. The guard can clearly see if that is working, and if it is then anyone boarding who doesn't go straight to it (provided the need to use it is well signed) is clearly trying it on.

I'm in a way surprised DB hasn't pushed ATW to consider this, instead pushing the idea of finding the guard.

crehld · 20 Jul 2015

Neil Williams said:
Indeed. One way to do this for very rural lines might be an on-board TVM. The guard can clearly see if that is working, and if it is then anyone boarding who doesn't go straight to it (provided the need to use it is well signed) is clearly trying it on.

I'm in a way surprised DB hasn't pushed ATW to consider this, instead pushing the idea of finding the guard.

A much simpler way would be to just have a TVM at every station which sells a full range of tickets and takes the accepted forms of payment and make sure they are properly maintained.

Bletchleyite · 20 Jul 2015

crehld said:
A much simpler way would be to just have a TVM at every station which sells a full range of tickets and takes the accepted forms of payment and make sure they are properly maintained.

In some areas if cash is taken (as it will need to be) that means it'll get smashed up on a daily basis, sadly. Hence the on-board idea.

When, I wonder, will we reach the point that cash acceptance can be removed? Can't be far off. It's costly and inconvenient and rather causes an issue in this kind of area.

Flamingo · 20 Jul 2015

Yawn. Of course, I forgot. It is one of the mantra's on here that every passenger wants to buy a ticket, it's lazy guards hiding in the back cab that prevent them doing so - of course, this is just part of the big plot so they can then be written up by an RPI despite making every effort to pay... :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

crehld said:
A much simpler way would be to just have a TVM at every station which sells a full range of tickets and takes the accepted forms of payment and make sure they are properly maintained.

So what about the large number of people who travel, not only from stations with TVM's, but even manned booking offices, but have some other bollix excuse like "I was running for the train", resulting in the usual apologists on here with "But if it's the only train for 16 hours..." - should they find the guard, or sit there fast asleep with their headphones on?

crehld · 20 Jul 2015

Flamingo said:
Yawn. Of course, I forgot. It is one of the mantra's on here that every passenger wants to buy a ticket, it's lazy guards hiding in the back cab that prevent them doing so - of course, this is just part of the big plot so they can then be written up by an RPI despite making every effort to pay... :roll:

I think more passengers than you give credit do want to buy tickets (the reasons include wanting to do the right thing, not wanting to get into trouble, wanting to make a contribution to the service you use, wanting to ensure usage of your local rural station is adequately recorded, etc). Sure there are some that won't and they should be dealt with. Starting from the default position that all passengers are out to fare evade is simply wrong - unless, of course, you have evidence to suggest all passengers are, in fact, inherent fare evaders?

And I said nothing about lazy guards hiding in the back cabs - I merely pointed out that for a number of reasons sometimes guards don't come round and sell tickets, either because they can't or perhaps won't. I'm telling you what happens on the ground. This is how it is. I'm sorry you don't like it, but I'm not in a position to do anything about it (other than lie I guess).

Flamingo said:
So what about the large number of people who travel, not only from stations with TVM's, but even manned booking offices, but have some other bollix excuse like "I was running for the train", resulting in the usual apologists on here with "But if it's the only train for 16 hours..." - should they find the guard, or sit there fast asleep with their headphones on?

As I said quite clearly, enforcement becomes clear cut. No ticket? You're in trouble. As I said, by providing a universal opportunity to pay before you board you remove the excuses that can be mobilised. You obviously don't like the existing situation; nor do I particularly. But as someone who works in the industry you're in a better position to push that agenda with your management than lowly passenger such as me! Perhaps steering the outrage bus in that direction would be a good move.
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Neil Williams said:
In some areas if cash is taken (as it will need to be) that means it'll get smashed up on a daily basis, sadly. Hence the on-board idea.

This is true.

Neil Williams said:
When, I wonder, will we reach the point that cash acceptance can be removed? Can't be far off. It's costly and inconvenient and rather causes an issue in this kind of area.

I think that is still a long way off!

kieron · 20 Jul 2015

Flamingo said:
ATW themselves have finally worked out that there are millions of pounds walking out the door, or short-faring every month, and are (at last) trying to reverse generations of a "Pay when challenged, and even then only the minimum if forced to" mentality from, I have to say, all classes using the train.

That's not new here - I'd date it back to at least when they replaced their "please buy tickets" posters with ones which placed more emphasis on buying before boarding.

What is new (at least, to me) is mention of a £70 "administration fee" about which I have seen very little information. I don't think this is something any other TOCs have stated before now, so it's worth a discussion.

"Duty" to seek out the guard (again!)

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