Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

Howardh · 17 Jul 2015

Just before I had a few days off (which has given me plenty of time to forget where I saw the darned thing so can't link) I saw something, somewhere, which suggested tube stock about to be taken out of service (or has been) could be refurbished and redesigned to run off overhead cables and used on the Manchester/Bolton/Preston line.

It's obvioulsly rubbish and I must have has a several when I found that on line and was delerious m'lud.

But - hang on - if it could be done is it such a bad idea, and should it happen??

EDIT BTW I'd love to see some ex-tube stock up here. Older the better!!

EDIT 2; I wasn't hallucinating.....http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...mind-doors-manchester-commuters-could-8645131
Has this been mentoned previously on this very long thread??

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Domh245 · 17 Jul 2015

D trains, along with their merits and drawbacks have been well documented on a few other threads. Fitting engines is very different to fitting AC OLE equipment (with this having generated it's own spin-off thread)

snowball · 17 Jul 2015

I was preparing to slag off the MEN for getting the D-train proposal wrong but I see they don't actually claim there was a proposal to use them as electrics.

Edit: The main thread on here is this one:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=103488

They've also been discussed in the thread about the terms of the next Northern franchise:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=112640

WatcherZero · 18 Jul 2015

MEN article seems to be from Feb when Vivarail were trying to spin their suitability for Northern and later that the Northern ITT didnt preclude their use.

Howardh · 18 Jul 2015

snowball said:
I was preparing to slag off the MEN for getting the D-train proposal wrong but I see they don't actually claim there was a proposal to use them as electrics.

Edit: The main thread on here is this one:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=103488

They've also been discussed in the thread about the terms of the next Northern franchise:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=112640

Thanks, so many threads, so little time....

snowball · 18 Jul 2015

Several pictures relevant to Farnworth Tunnel at the top of the Northern Programme Twitter feed:

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailNP

Note the rails at the Kearsley portal.

Elecman · 19 Jul 2015

They are not rails they are the supporting steelwork for the TBM launchpad

snowball · 19 Jul 2015

Elecman said:
They are not rails they are the supporting steelwork for the TBM launchpad

When I first posted I assumed the TBM would slide directly on them for its first few yards, but on second thoughts this is obviously wrong, as the TBM has to fit through the circular hole in the new portal, and the rails are slightly outside it, so they must be to support a surface not yet in place on which it will move.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Twitter page now has pics of a piece of the TBM arriving at Farnworth on the back of a lorry.

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailNP

WatcherZero · 19 Jul 2015

Its a frame that it will be assembled on before it moves forward.

snowball · 19 Jul 2015

Looking at the picture again, the two lowest rails at the bottom and the next lowest one on the right are flush with the edge of the hole, so probably very little if anything will intervene between them and the shell of the TBM.

DJH1971 · 20 Jul 2015

The appearance of masts may not be far away, as I saw mast beams being loaded on a lorry at Tuebrook this morning.

LNW-GW Joint · 20 Jul 2015

The first mast base west of Chorley has gone in on the Down side (didn't see the Up).
It's just before the cutting leading to the tunnel.
Maybe a couple more to the east of the station too.
So the project is not quite dormant.
Some activity at the BB depot at Edge Hill.
The stockpile of steelwork has gone down.
It must be appearing somewhere else!

Significant building work is going on at Allerton depot.
New electrification masts are up on the headshunt towards Hunts Cross.

WatcherZero · 20 Jul 2015

Last Bolton line bridge to be modified, Grimeford Lane in Blackrod, commences 27th July and will finish November 16th.

GRALISTAIR · 20 Jul 2015

WatcherZero said:
Last Bolton line bridge to be modified, Grimeford Lane in Blackrod, commences 27th July and will finish November 16th.

I was thinking that leaves things tight but as other works are continuing in parallel they should still hit target of end of 2016 for wires Salford - Euxton Jct.

Howardh · 20 Jul 2015

WatcherZero said:
Last Bolton line bridge to be modified, Grimeford Lane in Blackrod, commences 27th July and will finish November 16th.

Didn't they start it, but had to stop as the local traffic became intolerable (or a local councillor noticed his journey to work was tripled)?? If so, they must be restarting it, hopefully when all the other roads are opened this time!

snowball · 20 Jul 2015

Howardh said:
Didn't they start it, but had to stop as the local traffic became intolerable (or a local councillor noticed his journey to work was tripled)?? If so, they must be restarting it, hopefully when all the other roads are opened this time!

Yes, as stated in my post #1315. Watcher's post may have been based on the same press release that inspired mine.

ole man · 20 Jul 2015

Work has started in last week on upgrading Preston power box sidings to stable electric traction and driver walk ways

LDECRexile · 21 Jul 2015

ole man said:
Work has started in last week on upgrading Preston power box sidings to stable electric traction and driver walk ways

Welcome to the thread and thanks for the info.

I had the pleasure and good fortune to bump into Joe Callaghan today whilst out and about from Kearsley to Skew Bridge.

Joe has kindly sent some photos which I've added to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157651953947345

I've also added them, plus my own, to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648767927083

Thank you Joe.

As you will see, closure notices are up at Grimeford Lane bridge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Joe Callaghan has re-sent me this fine article which he first forwarded some time ago. I simply can't remember if I or anyone else posted it, so here it is (again.)

http://www.railengineer.uk/2015/05/11/boring-boring-boring/

Better twice than nonce.

Thank you Joe.

snowball · 21 Jul 2015

LDECRexile said:
$$Better twice than nonce.

I think that's the third time it's been posted overall but it's an excellent article and may catch new readers as the start of digging approaches.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The TBM has been named Fillie. (Why -ie rather than -y I don't know, given that it's derived from Filly for a female horse.) Latest pictures here:

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news...ompetition_to_name_huge_train_tunnel_machine/

Howardh · 21 Jul 2015

Interesting that one of Bolton's major bus companies running two popular routes has now combined them into one (519/520) and now miss the rail/bus interchange completely going in one direction (519 town - Johnson Fold).
So much for integrated travel.

Trackman · 21 Jul 2015

snowball said:
I think that's the third time it's been posted overall but it's an excellent article and may catch new readers as the start of digging approaches.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The TBM has been named Fillie. (Why -ie rather than -y I don't know, given that it's derived from Filly for a female horse.) Latest pictures here:

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news...ompetition_to_name_huge_train_tunnel_machine/

Name the concrete silo filling machine compo gone wrong?
I bet its an acronym of some sort? - Farnworth I laugh loud inexcusably endlessly

LDECRexile · 21 Jul 2015

Joe Callaghan has sent the Bolton News article and added the two photos below, also taken from the paper.

Both are presumably copyright of the Bolton News

Thank you Joe

WatcherZero · 21 Jul 2015

They employ them young at Murphy...

Ploughman · 21 Jul 2015

There does not seem to be a lot of top cover to the tunnel.
Just looking at the amount of wall showing above the crown in the press photo.

furnessvale · 21 Jul 2015

LDECRexile said:
Joe Callaghan has sent the Bolton News article and added the two photos below, also taken from the paper.

Both are presumably copyright of the Bolton News

Thank you Joe

Either in this thread, or possibly one in uk.railway people were questioning why the old tunnel needed filling with concrete only to be bored out again.

The amount of offset between the new and old bores amply demonstrates that, without a uniform fill to dig at, keeping the boring machine on line would be an impossible task.

GRALISTAIR · 21 Jul 2015

Ploughman said:
There does not seem to be a lot of top cover to the tunnel.
Just looking at the amount of wall showing above the crown in the press photo.

I was thinking exactly the same thing. :?

AM9 · 21 Jul 2015

GRALISTAIR said:
I was thinking exactly the same thing. :?

Surely that is just near the portals. The hill rises towards the middle of the tunnels.
Given that the tunnel will be a structurally sound prefabricated concrete tube, the land level above can be adjusted as required on completion.

GRALISTAIR · 21 Jul 2015

AM9 said:
Surely that is just near the portals. The hill rises towards the middle of the tunnels.
Given that the tunnel will be a structurally sound prefabricated concrete tube, the land level above can be adjusted as required on completion.

I guess you are right.

LDECRexile · 21 Jul 2015

Joe Callaghan has kindly sent some shots of parts of Fillie (steaks? fillets? short heads?) arriving at the tunnel top today.

I've added them to Joe's album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157651953947345

and to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648767927083

Thank you Joe

Philip Phlopp · 22 Jul 2015

snowball said:
I think it more likely that the concrete infill is to stop the tunnel collapsing while it's being enlarged - particularly important as trains are using the other bore. I don't see why steering should be a particular problem. It's not like drilling a hole in the wall at home. Though the machine is circular it isn't rotary like the Crossrail ones. There are two cutting heads are controlled by two operators - one for the top half of the face and one for the bottom - and they can cut where they think fit. The machine is moved forward by computer-controlled jacks pushing on the last ring of concrete lining segments (or, at the beginning, on a special structure at the tunnel mouth). If it starts to veer to one side, the jacks on that side push harder to correct it.

Absolutely.

Couple of random notes that may be of interest - the metal frames/rails at the tunnel portal, discussed earlier on, are positioned where they are to support the gantry sledges (the structure containing the hydraulic power packs, grouting equipment etc) when the actual tunnelling shield (the round component) enters the ground, and not just to support the shield itself.

This is the section numbered 11 on the labelled diagram which can be found at http://www.railengineer.uk/2015/05/11/boring-boring-boring/. These gantry sledges have wheels and the positioning of the metal frame/rails at the entrance to tunnel will match the wheels on the gantry sledges.

--

The tunnel has been extensively surveyed, and it was found to be pretty much life expired - there's no way you would want to be trying to dismantle a tunnel that's in such a condition without having an infill material which can resist any attempt by the tunnel to collapse in on itself.

The surveys done on the tunnel discovered a significant amount of water ingress, it's possible, perhaps likely, that parts of the tunnel lining are no longer cemented in place, but are being held by the pressure of other material pushing on them. I'm sure most people are aware of a brick arch needing a support until the keystone is added, and that the removal of the keystone can cause the arch to collapse - just think of the tunnel as a big archway with a lot of extra weight on top, and the cement infill as being the support needed to build an arch.

Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

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