billburns2
Member
- Joined
- 24 Jul 2015
- Messages
- 12
This is my first post on this forum, so hopefully I'm doing this right.
Last week I travelled on my Oyster card from Surbiton to London Victoria. This requires changing at Clapham Junction from. Southwest train to a Southern one.
The Southern train was busy but not full.
On boarding the train I sat down to read my book. About two minutes into the journey a ticket inspector asked for my ticket. i showed him my Oyster card and he replied that I was seated in First Class and that I had to pay a £20 penalty fare.
I told him that I'd done so by mistake and offered to move, but he insisted that I must pay the penalty.
As I didn't have any cash or cards on me, he proceeded to ask for my name and address, which I did by showing a drivers licence and he began to fill in his paperwork whilst telling me that I may be prosecuted and face a court appearance.
To the vast majority of people (me included) who are unaware of the draconian powers that railway bylaws give train operating companies, being charged £20 for sitting in the wrong seat is equivalent to being charged £20 for stepping on the cracks in the pavement - it's completely disproportionate to the offence.
When the inspector began moralising to me about "First Class passengers who pay a lot of money for their seats" I confess to losing my temper with the man, telling him that the £2000 plus I paid in train fares every year was also a lot of money and that penalty fares were a disproportionate, petty and vindictive scheme to bleed money from otherwise law-abiding passengers (which they are) all of which he duly wrote down. It's worth noting that although I was angry, at no point did I swear, insult or shout at the inspector.
It's also worth noting that my mistake was a genuine one - I have travelled almost exclusively on BR and later Southwest trains since I became a commuter 28 years ago. Accessing First Class on a Southwest train requires passing an internal carriage door that says First Class and sitting in a seat which is blue instead of orange. You really can't do it accidentally. First Class on Southern is simply another part of the Second Class carriage with the same coloured seats and some signage on the sear headrest. it's easy to miss , so I didn't notice when I sat down to read my book and still didn't realise my mistake for the two minutes between boarding the train and being caught by the inspector.
Having read similar threads, it now seems that I can look forward to getting a letter of intended prosecution on the basis that I had no money with me. This has been described as a "slam dunk" by posters on similar threads.
So now some questions, a lot of which fit into the category of "minor technicalities", but which may be my best bet in the circumstances.
1. How likely is it that Southern will prosecute me and what can I expect to be fined?
2. Changing platforms and train operators at Clapham Junction requires going down one set of steps and up an adjacent one. There are no Warning Notices displayed on that short route (see section 4 of the SRA rules on penalty fares).
Does that make a difference to my case?
3. The documentation handed to me by the inspector for a ticket irregularity isn't fully completed. He has scored out the lines that read "travelling to / from".
Does that make a difference to my case?
4. If my offence is labelled as Strict Liability, am I correct in thinking that there is no difference in terms of prosecution between an intentional or unintentional breach of the relevant Bylaw and therefore no defence?
5. If so, can the train company also decide that travelling without the means to pay a penalty fare is a is an intentional offence and therefore deserves throwing the book? (seems like having it both ways to me).
Apologies for the length of this post and all answers gratefully received.
Last week I travelled on my Oyster card from Surbiton to London Victoria. This requires changing at Clapham Junction from. Southwest train to a Southern one.
The Southern train was busy but not full.
On boarding the train I sat down to read my book. About two minutes into the journey a ticket inspector asked for my ticket. i showed him my Oyster card and he replied that I was seated in First Class and that I had to pay a £20 penalty fare.
I told him that I'd done so by mistake and offered to move, but he insisted that I must pay the penalty.
As I didn't have any cash or cards on me, he proceeded to ask for my name and address, which I did by showing a drivers licence and he began to fill in his paperwork whilst telling me that I may be prosecuted and face a court appearance.
To the vast majority of people (me included) who are unaware of the draconian powers that railway bylaws give train operating companies, being charged £20 for sitting in the wrong seat is equivalent to being charged £20 for stepping on the cracks in the pavement - it's completely disproportionate to the offence.
When the inspector began moralising to me about "First Class passengers who pay a lot of money for their seats" I confess to losing my temper with the man, telling him that the £2000 plus I paid in train fares every year was also a lot of money and that penalty fares were a disproportionate, petty and vindictive scheme to bleed money from otherwise law-abiding passengers (which they are) all of which he duly wrote down. It's worth noting that although I was angry, at no point did I swear, insult or shout at the inspector.
It's also worth noting that my mistake was a genuine one - I have travelled almost exclusively on BR and later Southwest trains since I became a commuter 28 years ago. Accessing First Class on a Southwest train requires passing an internal carriage door that says First Class and sitting in a seat which is blue instead of orange. You really can't do it accidentally. First Class on Southern is simply another part of the Second Class carriage with the same coloured seats and some signage on the sear headrest. it's easy to miss , so I didn't notice when I sat down to read my book and still didn't realise my mistake for the two minutes between boarding the train and being caught by the inspector.
Having read similar threads, it now seems that I can look forward to getting a letter of intended prosecution on the basis that I had no money with me. This has been described as a "slam dunk" by posters on similar threads.
So now some questions, a lot of which fit into the category of "minor technicalities", but which may be my best bet in the circumstances.
1. How likely is it that Southern will prosecute me and what can I expect to be fined?
2. Changing platforms and train operators at Clapham Junction requires going down one set of steps and up an adjacent one. There are no Warning Notices displayed on that short route (see section 4 of the SRA rules on penalty fares).
Does that make a difference to my case?
3. The documentation handed to me by the inspector for a ticket irregularity isn't fully completed. He has scored out the lines that read "travelling to / from".
Does that make a difference to my case?
4. If my offence is labelled as Strict Liability, am I correct in thinking that there is no difference in terms of prosecution between an intentional or unintentional breach of the relevant Bylaw and therefore no defence?
5. If so, can the train company also decide that travelling without the means to pay a penalty fare is a is an intentional offence and therefore deserves throwing the book? (seems like having it both ways to me).
Apologies for the length of this post and all answers gratefully received.
