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Great Train Robbery 52 years on

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Argosy

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Today at 0300 marks the anniversary of this notorious event.

I wouldn't have stumbled across it had I not been watching the Ronnie Biggs tapes. It was the sad case of Jack Mills that got me thinking.

A trawl of the internet says Hussey confessed to coshing the driver. But Jack Mills' son said it was someone else and Biggs later gave reference to person three, one of three men not caught for the crime.

Has that story progressed any further?

Remember it happening though only five at the time!
 
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sbt

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And who was the man known as "Stan Agate" or "Peter", the retired driver in the gang, who couldn't get the Class 40 to move as the only diesels he had driven were Southern Region shunters?
 

sbt

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The irony is that Ronnie Biggs was just a hanger on - he was only there to act as a minder for "Stan Agate". When "Stan" was unable to drive the loco they both became surplus to requirements and a bit of an embarrassment. The more important members of the gang are hardly known to the public, despite many publishing books.

Biggs became well known because of his escape from prison and his own publicity, partly made necessary by the fact that in exile in Brazil he wasn't allowed to work, partly because of his character and partly down to the press who lapped up his antics. Sadly injured Train Drivers don't sell as many newspapers as self-professed 'Rough Diamonds', particularly if the Drivers injuries aren't immediately obvious in a press photograph.

Most of the robbers didn't do well out of it. The majority failed to evade the law and spent time in jail for the robbery. Most never got to spend much of the proceeds and many spent the rest of their lives in and out of jail. The next most famous of them, Buster Edwards hanged himself aged 63. The 'Mr Big' went straight back to crime and almost immediately back to jail on his release. After that he spent much of his later life on Income Support as his notoriety meant that nobody would employ him legally and he was to 'hot' for anyone to want to be involved in further crime with him.

And make no mistake, whenever anything in depth is written about the story Jack Mills and, often, his Secondman David Whitby, who died tragically young, are mentioned and remembered. Jack Mills was also remembered closer to the time, when the amount paid by the press to Biggs's ex-wife was revealed a charity appeal raised around half the sum, UKP 34,000 (equivalent to somewhere between UKP 400,000 and UKP 1,000,000 today), for Jack Mills. Sadly he didn't live to enjoy the house he brought with the money for long.
 

70014IronDuke

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It makes me sick that a bunch of common criminals were elevated to hero status for their part in this robbery, yet it took the best part of 40 years for the train crew to be offically recognised.

Jack Mills suffered from the result of his head injuries until he died from Leukaemia in 1970. David Whitby suffered as well and died an untimely death at the age of 34.

No one outside their own families and the wider, railway family remembers their names, but every man and his dog knows who Ronny f*****g Biggs was.

I can't say the subject came up often when I was visiting the footplate in the 70s - some 10 years after the robbery - but whenever it did, there was a sort of 'sombre, sacred solidarity' mood among drivers and second men at the mention of Jack Mills.

Of course, Jack's death was much closer in time. Plenty of men - certainly the inspectors - at Crewe and Preston in those days still remembered Jack personally.
 

Ash Bridge

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It makes me sick that a bunch of common criminals were elevated to hero status for their part in this robbery, yet it took the best part of 40 years for the train crew to be offically recognised.

Jack Mills suffered from the result of his head injuries until he died from Leukaemia in 1970. David Whitby suffered as well and died an untimely death at the age of 34.

No one outside their own families and the wider, railway family remembers their names, but every man and his dog knows who Ronny f*****g Biggs was.

Regarding the location of the robbery on the WCML, it was also quite sickening that the name of the overbridge (at the time known as 'Bridego Bridge') that the mail train stopped over became known as 'Train Robbers Bridge' even by the rail authorities. This was brought to light quite recently by a railway magazine article which suggested it was very inappropriate (and rightly so) and thus a campaign was started to persuade Network Rail to change the name. NR eventually agreed and the location is now known as Mentmore Bridge
 

deltic

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If you get the chance I would recommend BBC's two part reconstruction sadly not on iplayer at the moment but some clips at http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03mk394 - you will be glad to know Ronnie Biggs barely gets a look in in the programmes, as mentioned above he was very much a bit part player
 

crispy1978

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It's the same with most crimes. People remember the criminals' names, and not the victims'; I'm guessing that's because they are constantly in the press. For some reason our press love to sensationalise the criminals and the victims are probably mentioned once in the 4th paragraph.

Hardly surprising to be honest that barely anyone outside of train circles have heard of Jack Mills and David Whitby.
 

70014IronDuke

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It's the same with most crimes. People remember the criminals' names, and not the victims'; I'm guessing that's because they are constantly in the press. For some reason our press love to sensationalise the criminals and the victims are probably mentioned once in the 4th paragraph.

Hardly surprising to be honest that barely anyone outside of train circles have heard of Jack Mills and David Whitby.

Perhaps - if it has not been done? - Virgin WC or some operator could be persuaded to name a locomotive/power car after these two men who tried to do their job under such difficult circumstances?
 

Ash Bridge

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Perhaps - if it has not been done? - Virgin WC or some operator could be persuaded to name a locomotive/power car after these two men who tried to do their job under such difficult circumstances?

I think DBS have done just that recently with a class 90 electric loco, at least for Jack Mills.

90036 I believe
 
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70014IronDuke

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I think DBS have done just that recently with a class 90 electric loco, at least for Jack Mills.

90036 I believe

Ah! Now you mention it, I might even have seen that, and had it lurking in my subconscious when writing.
 

broadgage

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Regarding the location of the robbery on the WCML, it was also quite sickening that the name of the overbridge (at the time known as 'Bridego Bridge') that the mail train stopped over became known as 'Train Robbers Bridge' even by the rail authorities. This was brought to light quite recently by a railway magazine article which suggested it was very inappropriate (and rightly so) and thus a campaign was started to persuade Network Rail to change the name. NR eventually agreed and the location is now known as Mentmore Bridge

I agree that "train robbers bridge" was in very poor taste and am glad that it was changed. Why Mentmore bridge though ? What was wrong with returning to the original name.
 

gimmea50anyday

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The 1967 film Robbery is probably as close as reasonably possible to recreate the events of the heist without glorifying the robbers involved, unlike Phil Collins "Buster" of 1988

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062207/

To be fair, while i dont condone the actions or what happened to jack, it was a well thought out and audacious robbery that needed a lot of planning. Part of the glamour of the great train robbery is i believe the plan in how they did it, and of the fact the successful robbery ended in failure as most of the money was siphoned off to too many people, while a large amount of it was lost and never been traced.
 

Joseph_Locke

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Regarding the location of the robbery on the WCML, it was also quite sickening that the name of the overbridge (at the time known as 'Bridego Bridge') that the mail train stopped over became known as 'Train Robbers Bridge' even by the rail authorities. This was brought to light quite recently by a railway magazine article which suggested it was very inappropriate (and rightly so) and thus a campaign was started to persuade Network Rail to change the name. NR eventually agreed and the location is now known as Mentmore Bridge

?

When I worked there it was Bridego Bridge officially, Train Robber's Bridge unofficially. As to Mentmore, it's closer to Slapton ...
 

QueensCurve

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Today at 0300 marks the anniversary of this notorious event.

I wouldn't have stumbled across it had I not been watching the Ronnie Biggs tapes. It was the sad case of Jack Mills that got me thinking.

A trawl of the internet says Hussey confessed to coshing the driver. But Jack Mills' son said it was someone else and Biggs later gave reference to person three, one of three men not caught for the crime.

Has that story progressed any further?

Remember it happening though only five at the time!

Apologies for not answering the question, but I understand the robbers capped the signal and shone a red light.

I have often wondered why they didn't use [real or improvised] track circuit operating clips?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Regarding the location of the robbery on the WCML, it was also quite sickening that the name of the overbridge (at the time known as 'Bridego Bridge') that the mail train stopped over became known as 'Train Robbers Bridge' even by the rail authorities. This was brought to light quite recently by a railway magazine article which suggested it was very inappropriate (and rightly so) and thus a campaign was started to persuade Network Rail to change the name. NR eventually agreed and the location is now known as Mentmore Bridge

I thought Mentmore Bridge was adjacent Mentmore Terrace, London E8 3PN: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...!1s0x48761ce611e0e7cd:0xe01c0397491f23b?hl=en
 

Crossover

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Apologies for not answering the question, but I understand the robbers capped the signal and shone a red light.

I have often wondered why they didn't use [real or improvised] track circuit operating clips?

Possibly to avoid alerting the signallers? I'm sure a signal suddenly jumping back to red would have raised some suspicion, whereas they covered the green lens and attached a battery to the red. I guess they must have done others too, such that the train got brought down under restrictive aspects, or did the train just go from a green to a red at immediate following signals?
 

Tuppenny Tube

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Just to add to this, when passing through Crewe last week, I picked up a local paper and it had a report on the opening of a new link road from the A500 to Gresty Road which has been named 'Jack Mills Way'. It goes on to say that another new section, opening next year, from the A500 to the A5020 will be named 'David Whitby Way'.
 

Ash Bridge

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I thought Mentmore Bridge was adjacent Mentmore Terrace, London E8 3PN: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...!1s0x48761ce611e0e7cd:0xe01c0397491f23b?hl=en

?

When I worked there it was Bridego Bridge officially, Train Robber's Bridge unofficially. As to Mentmore, it's closer to Slapton ...

You sure it has been renamed? As far as I am aware it's still Bridgeo Bridge

I've just typed in a search on Google "renaming train robbers bridge" and looking through images there are a couple of photographs showing the Network Rail Access Point Information Sign at this location informing it as " LEDBURN SOUTH TRAIN ROBBERS BRIDGE Mileage 37m 1010yds" there is also an article published by "The Guardian" on 28th September 2014 that includes a 1963 shot of Bridego Railway Bridge and in brackets stating it is now called Mentmore Bridge. Likewise a "Railway Magazine" article entitled "Pressure makes Network Rail change name" suggesting the new name isn't ideal but at least it no longer glorifies that outrageous crime. Could it be that NR have just not got round to actually renaming it yet?
 

70014IronDuke

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Just to add to this, when passing through Crewe last week, I picked up a local paper and it had a report on the opening of a new link road from the A500 to Gresty Road which has been named 'Jack Mills Way'. It goes on to say that another new section, opening next year, from the A500 to the A5020 will be named 'David Whitby Way'.

Very nice to see Crewe council know a bit about their heritage. Shame it wasn't done earlier, their wives are presumably sometime gone. Still, better late than never.
 

Rugd1022

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Possibly to avoid alerting the signallers? I'm sure a signal suddenly jumping back to red would have raised some suspicion, whereas they covered the green lens and attached a battery to the red. I guess they must have done others too, such that the train got brought down under restrictive aspects, or did the train just go from a green to a red at immediate following signals?

It's not often brought up but the gang did tamper with two signals on the approach to Sears Crossing (as it was called back then) not just the one. Bruce Reynolds was driving one of the two Landrovers and dropped off Roger Cordrey and another gang member who's name I forget at the overbridge to the north of the crossing, they then walked along the track, mounted the signals and altered the aspects by covering the greens and lighting up the yellow and red aspects using car batteries. Meanwhile Reynolds drove the Landrover down to Bridego Bridge where he met up with the remainder of the gang and robbed the front portion of 1M44 after it had been stopped and split from the whole train.

As a Driver myself I certainly do not condone what they did on that August night back in 1963, but as part of our railway and (like it or not) cultural history I find all aspects of it fascinating. So many untruths and to be frank, complete and utter b*ll*cks is perpetuated about the robbery that I think it's important to get the facts correct. The first two gang members to board Jack Mills' cab were Buster Edwards and another unamed person, it was one of these two who coshed Driver Mills when he (at first) refused to draw D326 and the first two vehicles down to Bridego Bridge as instructed by the robbers. One of the reasons that 'Peter' could not move the train forward was that the gang failed to put the vacuum pipe back correctly when they split the train at Sears Crossing, meaning he could not raise enough vacuum to completely release the brakes. He panicked and told the robbers that he could not make it work. Two of the robbers then went back to sort the vacuum pipe out while 'Peter' was dragged out of the chair and escorted back to the other Landrover by Ronnie Biggs. Jack Mills was then brought back into the cab from the engine room (where he and David Whitby had been kept and tied up) and moved the front portion of 1M44 forward under threat of more violence from the (by now) four gang members also in the cab.

As has been said, it was a well planned crime, fairly well executed but the gang's downfall was mainly due to them leaving forensic evidence at Letherslade Farm, which would have been raized to the ground had an associate done what he was paid to do. Ironically, they left no forensic evidence behind at the scene of the crime itself. D326 and the first two postal vehicles were impounded by the Police in the old Aylesbury bay platform at Cheddington Station, it was shunted there by Rugby Secondman Bill Green, who, with his Driver, had been the first railwaymen on the scene when they were working a passing freight train. As the gang had cut all the telephone wires at the scene, Bill was instructed by his Driver to take D326 and the postal vans down to Cheddington to raise the alarm there, it would have been a very long and time consuming walk otherwise. While Bill did this his Driver tended to the frightend postal workers still aboard 1M44. Very soon afterwards Bill received a severe reprimand for helping out and simply following his Driver's instructions.
 

70014IronDuke

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It's not often brought up but the gang did tamper with two signals on the approach to Sears Crossing (as it was called back then) not just the one. Bruce Reynolds was driving one of the two Landrovers and dropped off Roger Cordrey and another gang member who's name I forget at the overbridge to the north of the crossing, they then walked along the track, mounted the signals and altered the aspects by covering the greens and lighting up the yellow and red aspects using car batteries. ....

Had they not done the previous yellow (it was three aspect at the time, was it?) there would have been no guarantee that the train would have been able to brake for the red, of course.

OTOH, assuming AWS had been installed (?) surely Jack Mills would have seen the fake yellow, but then had a clear AWS signal (ie indicating a wrong side AWS) and then the same again approaching the fake red. This surely would have made him very suspicious. Wrong side AWS failures being pretty rare - and dangerous in the extreme.

Did he bring this up at all at the enquiry/police investigation, do you know?

As a Driver myself I certainly do not condone what they did on that August night back in 1963, but as part of our railway and (like it or not) cultural history I find all aspects of it fascinating.

SURE. I and lots of people are fascinated by the Luftwaffe, the SS and Hitler and how they fought the war - doesn't make me a supporter of their goals though.

So many untruths and to be frank, complete and utter b*ll*cks is perpetuated about the robbery that I think it's important to get the facts correct. ....

D326 and the first two postal vehicles were impounded by the Police in the old Aylesbury bay platform at Cheddington Station, it was shunted there by Rugby Secondman Bill Green, who, with his Driver, had been the first railwaymen on the scene when they were working a passing freight train. As the gang had cut all the telephone wires at the scene, Bill was instructed by his Driver to take D326 and the postal vans down to Cheddington to raise the alarm there, it would have been a very long and time consuming walk otherwise. While Bill did this his Driver tended to the frightend postal workers still aboard 1M44. Very soon afterwards Bill received a severe reprimand for helping out and simply following his Driver's instructions.

Why? Because he wasn't passed to drive? Or because he had no guard on the train or what?
Surely, in the extreme circumstances of the time, any sensible infringement of the rule book should have been allowed. After all, the mail train should not have been in any danger. The signals would have been on red, and any bobby in the first box that D326 reached would have seen the train did not have a tail lamp. (In any case, I assume second man Green would have stopped at the first box he reached to report what had happened.)

EDIT: just had a rethink. The stopped mail train could have been in danger. After all, the bobby, seeing the indications from the track circuits, would assume the train had failed in section. So the first signal to the north would have been set to red - but it was possibly showing a fake yellow. The preceding signal would have been set at yellow (properly). So any train approaching would have slowed for the first yellow but on approaching the red, might have actually seen the fake yellow - passed it and ran into the back of the mail train.

Presumably the guard on the mail train had been tied up, so he would not have been able to protect the train by setting detonators? Could have been a nasty collision. Or have I missed something?

Thanks for the summary.
Perhaps Rugby Town council should name a road after Bill Green too.
 
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68000

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I done the Glasgow Central tour in June and the guide (a brilliant guy called Paul) was quite scathing about Biggs and the other robbers, he preferred to remember the railway men who were on the train than the gits that done the robbing. Of course, we were taken to the area underneath Central were the train was loaded
 

6Gman

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Very nice to see Crewe council know a bit about their heritage. Shame it wasn't done earlier, their wives are presumably sometime gone. Still, better late than never.

There is already a road in Crewe named in memory of Jack Mills, some years ago. Not sure why Cheshire East Council decided to name a second one.
 

Rugd1022

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Had they not done the previous yellow (it was three aspect at the time, was it?) there would have been no guarantee that the train would have been able to brake for the red, of course.

OTOH, assuming AWS had been installed (?) surely Jack Mills would have seen the fake yellow, but then had a clear AWS signal (ie indicating a wrong side AWS) and then the same again approaching the fake red. This surely would have made him very suspicious. Wrong side AWS failures being pretty rare - and dangerous in the extreme.

Did he bring this up at all at the enquiry/police investigation, do you know?



SURE. I and lots of people are fascinated by the Luftwaffe, the SS and Hitler and how they fought the war - doesn't make me a supporter of their goals though.



Why? Because he wasn't passed to drive? Or because he had no guard on the train or what?
Surely, in the extreme circumstances of the time, any sensible infringement of the rule book should have been allowed. After all, the mail train should not have been in any danger. The signals would have been on red, and any bobby in the first box that D326 reached would have seen the train did not have a tail lamp. (In any case, I assume second man Green would have stopped at the first box he reached to report what had happened.)

EDIT: just had a rethink. The stopped mail train could have been in danger. After all, the bobby, seeing the indications from the track circuits, would assume the train had failed in section. So the first signal to the north would have been set to red - but it was possibly showing a fake yellow. The preceding signal would have been set at yellow (properly). So any train approaching would have slowed for the first yellow but on approaching the red, might have actually seen the fake yellow - passed it and ran into the back of the mail train.

Presumably the guard on the mail train had been tied up, so he would not have been able to protect the train by setting detonators? Could have been a nasty collision. Or have I missed something?

Thanks for the summary.
Perhaps Rugby Town council should name a road after Bill Green too.

Can't multi quote for some reason, anyway...

I don't know for certain why Bill Green was given a rollocking, other than not being passed out to drive.

The first box he came to was Cheddington.
 

Crossover

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It's not often brought up but the gang did tamper with two signals on the approach to Sears Crossing (as it was called back then) not just the one. Bruce Reynolds was driving one of the two Landrovers and dropped off Roger Cordrey and another gang member who's name I forget at the overbridge to the north of the crossing, they then walked along the track, mounted the signals and altered the aspects by covering the greens and lighting up the yellow and red aspects using car batteries. Meanwhile Reynolds drove the Landrover down to Bridego Bridge where he met up with the remainder of the gang and robbed the front portion of 1M44 after it had been stopped and split from the whole train.

As a Driver myself I certainly do not condone what they did on that August night back in 1963, but as part of our railway and (like it or not) cultural history I find all aspects of it fascinating. So many untruths and to be frank, complete and utter b*ll*cks is perpetuated about the robbery that I think it's important to get the facts correct. The first two gang members to board Jack Mills' cab were Buster Edwards and another unamed person, it was one of these two who coshed Driver Mills when he (at first) refused to draw D326 and the first two vehicles down to Bridego Bridge as instructed by the robbers. One of the reasons that 'Peter' could not move the train forward was that the gang failed to put the vacuum pipe back correctly when they split the train at Sears Crossing, meaning he could not raise enough vacuum to completely release the brakes. He panicked and told the robbers that he could not make it work. Two of the robbers then went back to sort the vacuum pipe out while 'Peter' was dragged out of the chair and escorted back to the other Landrover by Ronnie Biggs. Jack Mills was then brought back into the cab from the engine room (where he and David Whitby had been kept and tied up) and moved the front portion of 1M44 forward under threat of more violence from the (by now) four gang members also in the cab.

As has been said, it was a well planned crime, fairly well executed but the gang's downfall was mainly due to them leaving forensic evidence at Letherslade Farm, which would have been raized to the ground had an associate done what he was paid to do. Ironically, they left no forensic evidence behind at the scene of the crime itself. D326 and the first two postal vehicles were impounded by the Police in the old Aylesbury bay platform at Cheddington Station, it was shunted there by Rugby Secondman Bill Green, who, with his Driver, had been the first railwaymen on the scene when they were working a passing freight train. As the gang had cut all the telephone wires at the scene, Bill was instructed by his Driver to take D326 and the postal vans down to Cheddington to raise the alarm there, it would have been a very long and time consuming walk otherwise. While Bill did this his Driver tended to the frightend postal workers still aboard 1M44. Very soon afterwards Bill received a severe reprimand for helping out and simply following his Driver's instructions.

Thanks for that post Rugd1022 - very interesting :)
 

Busaholic

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Letherslade Farm left plenty of 'forensics' including fingerprint evidence. though DNA was of course then an unknown quantity.
Speculation about the identity of 'the Irishman' reputed to be the brains behind the robbery was rife until last autumn when, nearing the end of his life, one of the real ringleaders named Goody revealed the name of the GPO employee who supplied the vital information = Patrick McKenna from Belfast, now dead. His role appeared to be to identify the best date from the gang's point of view to grab the maximum amount of cash.
 
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