-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
BBC 4 Wed 2 Sep 2015 - Trains That Time Forgot.
- Thread starter Envoy
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
tsr
Established Member
I have sometimes said, 'welcome aboard this hove shuttle service'. Does that count as a named train. I've also said, 'welcome aboard this Brighton Express' as well.
I once announced the 2227 London Bridge-East Croydon as the "Twilight Croydonian". I think, sadly, that everybody onboard was probably too drunk or engrossed in their burgers to notice.
Mikey C
Established Member
- Joined
- 11 Feb 2013
- Messages
- 6,845
Naming trains only makes sense for a special service, a once a day type service. I recently crossed America on the California Zephyr which runs once a day and takes 2 days!
As most mainline services runs incredibly frequently, and are operated by large fleets of identical rolling stock, names seem a bit pointless. If anyone it should be the open access operators who name their services, seeing as they operate unique direct services.
The Great Hull Express
As most mainline services runs incredibly frequently, and are operated by large fleets of identical rolling stock, names seem a bit pointless. If anyone it should be the open access operators who name their services, seeing as they operate unique direct services.
The Great Hull Express
crewmeal
Member
I'm sure a "Western' could handle the current Night Rivvy quite well (apart from ETH problems)
I think they are more powerful. Aren't the Class 47 just 2650 hp, drained for ETH, whereas the Westerns are 2700 hp and all available for traction.
The real "Night Rivvy" in Western days was not the overnight sleeper, but the newspaper train to Plymouth, which probably made the fastest trip of the day between Reading and Taunton. Although unadvertised there was a BSK on the back, which if you were pleasant to the guard you could be allowed in to, along generally with a couple of sailors heading for a Plymouth 6am report back from leave. But it was a bit of a bumpy full-throttle or full-brakes type of trip.
Am I imagining it, or did The Master Cutler service operate from Manchester Central station in 1966?
To or via Sheffield of course.
That was a fun program! Very entertaining and nostalgic (but thoroughly aware of it's rose tinted glasses). A shame there aren't a few more named services, the WCML stands out for me for it's complete lack of named services. The 1630 from Euston to Glasgow, for example, is surely crying out to be a named service seeing as it calls only at Preston and Glasgow and is considerably faster than any other service.
Thought the bit about Sir Nigel Gresley being mortified about the way Flying Scotsman the movie was filmed was brilliant So much that a disclaimer was put on to say some safety features have been disabled and artistic license used in the making of the film. I.E uncoupling a moving train with a penknife LOL
D1009
Established Member
I think you are. Trains did run from Manchester Central to London Marylebone via Sheffield, but the Master Cutler was not one of them, and it ceased to use the GC route in 1958.
Other things are probably more important, but I do like a named train.
It's an easy way for me to identify which are considered the fastest or best trains of the day.
Then I have the choice either to travel on them for best speed or avoid them for less crowding.
For the railway I suppose that it's a form of promotion that costs next to nothing and makes things more interesting. (If it can be consistently presented)
It might also allow some direction of passengers; do named trains get better loadings than surrounding non-named trains?
It's an easy way for me to identify which are considered the fastest or best trains of the day.
Then I have the choice either to travel on them for best speed or avoid them for less crowding.
For the railway I suppose that it's a form of promotion that costs next to nothing and makes things more interesting. (If it can be consistently presented)
It might also allow some direction of passengers; do named trains get better loadings than surrounding non-named trains?
As D1009 says, you are imagining it!
The Master Cutler was named after the Guild of Cutlers, established in 1624, with the intention of promoting the products of Sheffield for which it was once famous.
They would be spinning in their graves at the thought of their train going anywhere near Manchester.
gimmea50anyday
Established Member
A 47 is rated at 2580hp. Once auxiliaries and ETH are taken into account you are probs shy of 2000hp a tually pulling the train. In comparison a 40 with 2000 horses and its cumbersome size and weight only managed 1450 at rail hence why they were always considered underpowered
The westerns strength lie in its starting torque and traction method.
With a maximum power of 2700hp matching a 50 for power the advantage is the mechanical conversion of the traction as opposed to the electrical traction there is less power lost in the lower gear ratios, plus with the gears whereas motors arent geared a western can produce a higher maximum starting and continuous power rating and therefore acceleration was better. Where the westerns fall down is the decline in tractive effort at the top end speeds once the third gear kicked in, which is where the advantages of the diesel electric power show themselves. Most of the power in a DE is relatively smooth and even throughout all engine outputs and speeds and leads to a smooth nd steady acceleration whereas a DM drive has peaks and troughs of power depending on the speed and the gear used and can cause power surges as a result.
An example of this can be seen where say a 180 or a 185 is leaving a station alongside a voyager or HST at perhaps reading or york. While first gear is running both trains should stay side by side, once second gear kicks in around 40mph the DM will take off and start drawing ahead of the DE, as second gear reaches its peak speed the DE will start catching up. Of course versus a 185 the voyager will win with having a higher top end speed but it is suprising how quickly a 185 will draw ahead of a voyager.
It is also interesting to note a 47 has a lower continuous tractive power than a 50 but the maximum effort is slightly higher. This could be as a result of the motor gearing being slightly lower along with the 95mph max speed compared to the 50's 100mph.
Last edited:
Couldn't agree more. The Glasgow Executive used to run more or less in that path. Or it could become The Caledonian again.
Is the ETH run all the time? When the Class 33 were running the Waterloo-Exeter line the drivers used to switch the ETH off whenever they were accelerating from stations or climbing a steep gradient, then switch it on again once the demand for maximum power at the rail had passed. This was only in winter, for heat, when Mk 1 stock only had ETH in use. Is it practical with continuous AC?
shinkansen1966
Member
Interesting FGW publicity material, especially when it comes to the Cheltenham Spa Express. In 1932, this train covered the 77.25 miles from London to Swindon in 65 minutes. It was first train to average over 70 mph.
A cursory glance at current schedules show timings between London and Swindon have scarcely improved. Typical journeys times are now 58-63 minutes. Longer on Sundays.
How many stops did the 1932 version make compared to the 2015 version?
gimmea50anyday
Established Member
Locos can temporarily stop providing ETH when full traction power demand is made. Not sure how it works on a 47, think when the top notch on the power handle is selected ETH is turned off and comes back on when the power is notched back down - dont quote me on that one tho, im sure a 47 driver can confirm or correct me on this.....
ExRes
Established Member
When I was driving Res/EWS mail trains the only thing that 'notched' ETH was something called 'the drivers finger'
Sorry to be pedantic but were not Westerns Hydraulic transmissions not mechanical? They had two Maybach MD655 engines and the Voith L630rV three speed hydraulic transmissions. The top gear ratio in the transmission was too high for the torque characteristics of the engine: the result was that a single locomotive could struggle to reach its claimed 90 mph (140 km/h) top speed.
gimmea50anyday
Established Member
i did refer to the limitations of the transmission type later on in the text. im no expert however, its just my understanding. And yes to be precise it is a hydraulic transmission, but the principles versus electric transmission was my point
WatcherZero
Established Member
- Joined
- 25 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 10,272
Yeah it was shocking that todays stopping services to Plymouth are actually several hours faster than the old non stop services and they used to have a more direct line which no longer exists. Uncoupling a carriage at speed and letting it drift into the station to avoid stopping, they really went out of their way to shave minutes and seconds didn't they
Kentish Paul
Member
Yeah it was shocking that todays stopping services to Plymouth are actually several hours faster than the old non stop services and they used to have a more direct line which no longer exists. Uncoupling a carriage at speed and letting it drift into the station to avoid stopping, they really went out of their way to shave minutes and seconds didn't they
What is this more direct line which no longer exists?
Also define "several hours faster than the old non stop". I am pretty sure the difference is a little more than an hour. I will check my old books.
gimmea50anyday
Established Member
I think he mentions in the film around An hour 1/2 quicker, but there were more stops. In 1932 apart from the taunton slip coach the first stop was plymouth iirc, whereas the modern day equivalent first stop was Reading.
The more direct line avoiding bristol is the westbury route, and is still open!
The more direct line avoiding bristol is the westbury route, and is still open!
Another programme just shown on ITV last night had some railway content from about 8 minutes 20 in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkfLaHmGpu0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkfLaHmGpu0
Envoy
Established Member
- Joined
- 29 Aug 2014
- Messages
- 2,474
Here is a list of the named trains:>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_named_passenger_trains_of_the_United_Kingdom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_named_passenger_trains_of_the_United_Kingdom
gimmea50anyday
Established Member
Goes to show the utilitarian method in running todays railway all the magic of the past has been lost. Which is a shame as marketing named trains even if the train set is no different to what normally runs could be a money spinner for the TOC's and people will pay a premium for a premium service. Even if provided in say just one carriage. Sadly the franchises are so prescriptive that every service is specified, and very little if any individuality is frowned upon or otherwise costs money that someone has to pay. On board catering will always be seen as a loss and is therefore in decline whereas it should be seen as a loss leader where the overall experience is improved as a result of providing the service.
Lots missing from that list unfortunately. One of the most definitive lists was published a couple of years ago in The Railway Magazine, and was also sold a separate title for a short while. Probably a collectors item in years to come.
The current fastest times to Plymouth are an even 3 hours each way. The steam Cornish Riviera in 1932 was, I believe, 4 hours and 7 minutes. After the various improvements of the Westbury and Frome cutoffs, etc, in the 1930s it came down to an even 4 hours.
There was not just one slip coach on the down Cornish Riviera, but three! One at Westbury, one at Taunton, and one at Exeter. After the Westbury cutoff was opened the coach was slipped out at Heywood Road Junction, and Westbury shed had to send out a tank engine to bring it in from there. Each slip coach had a different pattern of tail lamps, as did the rump of the main train, so signal boxes along the way could identify if one or more vehicles had broken away before the designated point. A slip coach might have a normal coach attached behind as well, but the key feature was the capacity of the vacuum reservoir cylinders beneath the slip coach, you only got a couple of brake applications and releases out of them. Up in the signal boxes there were all manner of additional bell codes for slip coaches passing and finally removed from section.
My grandfather told me he regularly used the Taunton slip coach, 10.30 from Paddington arrived at Taunton platform just about 1 pm, he would apparently walk in to the family lunch in progress some minutes later, with a place laid for him, having telegrammed ahead his arrival time. He had, of course, engaged the Slip Guard in conversation along the way. It was a point of honour for the latter to brake the coach to a stand with the slip compartment right alongside the stairway down to the station subway. Whenever in recent times on the Jubilee Line Extension, before automatic driving came along, the trains were stopped precisely on the spot at the platform edge doors, I was sometimes reminded of this similar stopping accuracy with much cruder equipment, long ago and far away.
Last edited:
- Status