Pregnant woman forced to stand on train

nowinaminute · 7 Sep 2015

Wolfie said:
Spot on! I find it difficult to believe that no one, male or female, who was seated would not offer an obviously pregnant woman a seat. Unless of course there are things we haven't been told.....

How positively medieaval!

I have seen elderly men, who can hardly stand up, offering seats to perfectly healthy younger women for exactly this sort of outdated tosh reason.....

Worse still the damn women took them!

I have to agree, the assumption that a person is somehow less able to stand because they have a vagina is downright insulting and this old fashioned attitude needs to change even if it comes from good intentions. I have also seen elderly men struggle to their feet so female college students can sit down which is ridiculous.

It reminds me of a someone I once knew who's face was left horrifically disfigured (and lucky to be alive) after a knife attack from his then partner. He wouldn't lift a finger to defend himself because he "doesn't hit women"

RailUK Forums

HLE · 8 Sep 2015

DarloRich said:
no there is only one issue: manners.

A gentleman should offer a lady a seat regardless.

That's sexism in itself.

Equality means equal. Got to take the rough with the smooth.

But to refuse someone who has reserved the seat....and obviously in more need of it, pretty shameful.

DarloRich · 8 Sep 2015

HLE said:
That's sexism in itself.

Equality means equal. Got to take the rough with the smooth.

But to refuse someone who has reserved the seat....and obviously in more need of it, pretty shameful.

whatever - its called good manners as far as i am concerned.

So by your argument if you are pregnant and HAVEN'T reserved a seat - tough?

Bletchleyite · 8 Sep 2015

DarloRich said:
whatever - its called good manners as far as i am concerned.

So by your argument if you are pregnant and HAVEN'T reserved a seat - tough?

I think his argument was that if you are an able bodied, non pregnant woman and you haven't reserved your seat, your entitlement to a seat is equal to an able bodied man, with which I agree. Equality means equality. It is as sexist to discriminate against men as it is against women.

A pregnant woman gets priority over an able bodied person, however someone with a disability may, depending on what it is, get priority over a pregnant woman (though there being a train in which no seat is taken by a fully able bodied person would be odd!) IOW, the entitlement to the seat is based on the need for it (modulo, if two people of equal need require it and one has a reservation for it, the one with the reservation wins), not on any other arbitrary criterion which does not affect the need.

Greenback · 8 Sep 2015

Neil Williams said:
A pregnant woman gets priority over an able bodied person, however someone with a disability may, depending on what it is, get priority over a pregnant woman (though there being a train in which no seat is taken by a fully able bodied person would be odd!)

Therein lies the problem, though, doesn't it? Who decides who has priority and based on what criteria?

The way we are going, it wouldn't surprise me if everyone claimed that they needed a seat for one reason or another, whether they appear to be able bodied or not.

Bletchleyite · 8 Sep 2015

Greenback said:
Therein lies the problem, though, doesn't it? Who decides who has priority and based on what criteria?

Normally, human reasonableness. Provided the person with a disability is willing to request a seat if nobody has noticed that they have the disability rather than taking offence that nobody noticed, I haven't seen a particular issue with seats being given up. I quite like those "Baby on board" badges LUL did, though I suppose some may not wish to shout about it to that extent.

The way we are going, it wouldn't surprise me if everyone claimed that they needed a seat for one reason or another, whether they appear to be able bodied or not.

People could lie about disabilities, but I haven't seen this happening to the extent it is an issue (unlike lazy people who park in disabled parking spaces when they have no need to do so).

Greenback · 8 Sep 2015

At the moment, most people are pretty reasonable. My father was apparently offered a seat on a train recently, and was appalled that others thought he needed it, even though he's in his 70's. I believe he declined!

When I'm on a train, and sitting down, I'm fairly oblivious to my surroundings. The high backed seats n many trains don't help, but I'm usually too lost in a book, or gazing absent mindedly out of the window to even notice whether someone might need a seat when they get on and the train is full. I often choose to stand on such trains on shorter journeys anyway, though, so that those with a greater need to sit down, whoever they are, can do so.

When I do notice what's going on, though, it does appear that there's a growing reluctance to give up what could be a rare chance to sit down for regular travellers on very busy trains in places like the North West. Allied with the fact that some people, like my Dad, don't want to be seen as old, infirm or somehow in need of additional assistance (even though his health is not great it's not obvious) and it seems a recipe for incidents like the one that has been reported.

I'm not going to comment on the actual incident due tot he fact that I consider there's insufficient information to do so, as is usual with these sort of stories. So, I'll just stick to making general comments instead.

NorthernSpirit · 8 Sep 2015

If someone is pregnant, frail or disabled (e.g. blind) I will offer them my seat as they will need it more than me.

Its called common courtesy, If someone is female and is pregnant then I will let them sit down, as it will be glaringly obvious that they are. Sadly these days this me me me attitude wil be the death warrent for manners.

After all its manners make of the man?

ComUtoR · 8 Sep 2015

Greenback said:
Therein lies the problem, though, doesn't it? Who decides who has priority and based on what criteria?

https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/your-journey/assisted-travel/priority-seating/

Frequently asked questions
Who can apply?

Any person who cannot stand safely for their journey and are elderly, pregnant, travelling with children under three, or have a disability. If you meet the criteria a Priority Seating Card will be issued free of charge. In addition, for pregnancy a Baby on Board badge will be issued as well.

For once we are getting something right.

Bletchleyite · 8 Sep 2015

ComUtoR said:
https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/your-journey/assisted-travel/priority-seating/

For once we are getting something right.

Seems sensible. Perhaps ATOC should take it on as a standard scheme.

PHILIPE · 8 Sep 2015

The Sun has also picked up the story in addition to the Mirror

Greenback · 8 Sep 2015

It's sensible bu tit doesn't eradicate the problem completely. You might still get a situation where two people each have a card and want the same seat. Then, you might still get a situation where someone refuses to move.

Geezertronic · 8 Sep 2015

Something just doesn't sound right with this story and I am sure there is a lot more to it than first reported.

pemma · 8 Sep 2015

Geezertronic said:
Something just doesn't sound right with this story and I am sure there is a lot more to it than first reported.

To me I still suspect when it the article says 'businessman' it meant someone in smart attire working on a laptop who possibly wasn't aware he was in a reserved seat and had no intention of giving up the seat for anyone because he wanted to do work and couldn't do that standing.

She says she was polite to the man but we don't know exactly what was said. It might have more polite than what she was thinking but wasn't something that sounded particularly polite, or it could have been a very polite exchange from her side.

Some of the comments posted on articles and social media are unbelievable. There's people saying she should have taken a photo of him to humiliate him. Another person has even found an old news story which refers to an incident where around 6 years ago some called Mhari-Claire Doolan aged 22 drove a car when not qualified and knocked down a teenager, then called the train incident karma. Then there's someone suggesting XC should have an app for people to find/contact the conductor. Surprisingly, very few people have said the solution would be for XC to have more seats in the first place.

Greenback · 8 Sep 2015

Sadly this seems to be the way things are these days. Not the incident itself, but the way it's been reported and the consequent reactions.

gimmea50anyday · 8 Sep 2015

Hmm.... Even tho the universal solution is pretty much to start providing more carriages on trains rather than trying to cram more short trains onto a creaking heaving network busting at the seams a la Mr Creosote!

Howardh · 8 Sep 2015

Are there not seats on trains reserved for the needy (possibly diabled and elderly but also for the infirm, pregnant)? If a customer was sat on one of those and was clearly able, maybe they should have been asked to offer their seat?

*I once took mum on the train (85/alzhiemers) and no seats were available, apart from a perfectly able *lady* who was sat in one of the disbaled - the aisle seat - and the other was empty save for two dogs of hers underneath, and her shopping. She wouldn't move to allow mum to sit there...."where will my dogs go??". Nuclear war nearly broke out....fortunately a gent nearby stood up for mum and he + myself spent a wonderful half hour staring right into her eyes.

meridian2 · 8 Sep 2015

DarloRich said:
no there is only one issue: manners.

A gentleman should offer a lady a seat regardless.

On an overcrowded, full and standing train, such a suggestion is counter-productive and unwarranted.

Otherwise I would agree with you but sometimes it's no longer practical to do so.

bb21 · 8 Sep 2015

jcollins said:
Some of the comments posted on articles and social media are unbelievable.

No need for that. Just have a look around here. :lol:

The world has moved on and nothing is black and white is all I can say.

DarloRich said:
no there is only one issue: manners.

A gentleman should offer a lady a seat regardless.

I asked three female friends today about this. One said that she finds this patronising and two said they would take offence if the seat was offered simply because they were women.

While I believe that you meant good, this has all the hallmarks of male chauvinism written on it imo.

If I deem someone to be more in need of my seat than me, I would offer it, but this is always an art and not an exact science.

HLE · 8 Sep 2015

DarloRich said:
whatever - its called good manners as far as i am concerned.

So by your argument if you are pregnant and HAVEN'T reserved a seat - tough?

No not at all. I have given my seat up in the past to those less able to stand/pregnant. I've given it up for blokes too, if they looked like they needed a seat.

Just don't like the inference that a gentlemen should give up his seat to someone just because of their sex. That's sexism like it or not. To be fair I'd feel uncomfortable if I was offered a chair purely because I was a woman.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Neil Williams said:
I think his argument was that if you are an able bodied, non pregnant woman and you haven't reserved your seat, your entitlement to a seat is equal to an able bodied man, with which I agree. Equality means equality. It is as sexist to discriminate against men as it is against women.

A pregnant woman gets priority over an able bodied person, however someone with a disability may, depending on what it is, get priority over a pregnant woman (though there being a train in which no seat is taken by a fully able bodied person would be odd!) IOW, the entitlement to the seat is based on the need for it (modulo, if two people of equal need require it and one has a reservation for it, the one with the reservation wins), not on any other arbitrary criterion which does not affect the need.

This.

dangie · 8 Sep 2015

Geezertronic said:
Something just doesn't sound right with this story and I am sure there is a lot more to it than first reported.

Exactly.

Why let the truth interfere with a good story especially when you can get yourself in the newspapers. As already stated the breast-feeding woman in Primark is a perfect example.

bitmadmax · 8 Sep 2015

A arrogant suited businessman? The BMW must have been in for a service that day...

island · 8 Sep 2015

gimmea50anyday said:
Pregnant women are entitled to sit in first class on full and standing trains where there are no seats available.

That's not correct. They may (and probably will) be offered an upgrade by on-board staff where present, but there is no across-the-board entitlement.

61653 HTAFC · 8 Sep 2015

island said:
That's not correct. They may (and probably will) be offered an upgrade by on-board staff where present, but there is no across-the-board entitlement.

There are a few urban myths regarding pregnancy, including the one which I wish was true which apparently means that a policeman must offer his helmet as a receptacle for a pregnant woman to relieve herself in!

Geezertronic · 8 Sep 2015

dangie said:
Exactly.

Why let the truth interfere with a good story especially when you can get yourself in the newspapers. As already stated the breast-feeding woman in Primark is a perfect example.

I just find it very hard to believe that even if this one guy was an ass, that the other 60-odd people in the carriage didn't offer the woman a seat.

And it's not always as easy to tell if a lady is pregnant as my wife found out when she asked a friend she hadn't seen for a while when she was due and her friend was not pregnant

If my Uncle is to be believed (and he has a 100% guess ratio so I don't question it), the size/shape of a pregnant woman can depend on whether she is carrying a boy or a girl

although that could be one of those urban legends/wives tales

yorkie · 8 Sep 2015

island said:
That's not correct.....

Given who is saying it, it will at least be correct for a certain operator running across the Pennines though

bramling · 9 Sep 2015

Train2Win said:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...d-stand-train-6397062#rlabs=2 rt$sitewide p$1

Notwithstanding the rights and wrongs of the case in question, a couple of points;

1) Root cause of problem - overcrowding. As usual, too many people and not enough capacity is the cause of the problem.

2) Nobody is *forced* to stand on a train. There's always the option to wait for a later or slower service. Seems a bit of a non-story, not sure how it ever vecame 'newsworthy'.

silverfoxcc · 9 Sep 2015

Slight o/t
but a few years ago a Lonodn football team were in the habit of issuing flags in the stadium, with a white plastic stick as the pole. My friend lost his 'pole' and as i had a spare i offered to take it to the next game. Travelling on the H+C from Paddington to Liv St i was just standing by the door holding the stick when i was approached by a chap who asked if i needed a seat! I explained the situation as he looked quite embarrased as he didnt notice i was reading the paper at the time. But back on/t. It is a problem, esp when a women who for all the world looks like she is gravid, gives you a mouthful of abuse for misjudging why she is that shape.

gray1404 · 9 Sep 2015

Remember too that you can get people who are very much able bodied but still disabled and entitled to use priority seats - those with non physical or hidden disabilities.

gimmea50anyday · 9 Sep 2015

yorkie said:
Given who is saying it, it will at least be correct for a certain operator running across the Pennines though

Thanks Yorkie!

That has always been my understanding of the rules that have come from my management anyway.....

Pregnant woman forced to stand on train

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