£300M for the Borders Railway? Value for money or better spent elsewhere?

cjt0131 · 14 Sep 2015

HarleyDavidson said:
Code:

I do, it will offer the opportunity to residents of the areas along the line to commute to both Carlisle or Edinburgh for work & or leisure and take loads of lorries loaded with timber off of the roads, then there's the ability to divert services during engineering work or other times of disruption/accident etc without having to resort to RRBs, which can cause serious inconvenience to passengers with loads of luggage or kids etc.

giving the borderers a chance to connect with EC in Edinburgh and WCML at Carlisle would be great

would freight be transported though ?

back to the OP------I am amazed that the line was built at the cost it was and the borders was long overdue some capital expenditure

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physics34 · 14 Sep 2015

could probably say this about the thameslink project.

HSTEd · 14 Sep 2015

HarleyDavidson said:
I do, it will offer the opportunity to residents of the areas along the line to commute to both Carlisle or Edinburgh for work & or leisure and take loads of lorries loaded with timber off of the roads,

How many lorries?
And do you have any real evidence that the timber would actually be moved by rail? Timber traffic by rail has been a dead duck for years with only dregs remaining.
And go to Carlisle for leisure? Have you ever been to Carlisle?

HarleyDavidson said:
then there's the ability to divert services during engineering work or other times of disruption/accident etc without having to resort to RRBs, which can cause serious inconvenience to passengers with loads of luggage or kids etc.

Any long term diversions can be handled by the existing system using the Tyne Valley Line to transit between the two routes.
A third route does not really improve resilience significantly.

the sniper · 14 Sep 2015

backontrack said:
In my opinion, extension should continue via Melrose and St Boswells to Hawick, but no further. They shouldn't have closed the line, but I don't see the point of reopening the rest of it.

Completely agree. Hawick has to get connected, the sooner the better. Beyond that though, no way. It shouldn't have closed but there's not enough justification for opening it now as what would effectively be a totally new railway.

AngusH · 15 Sep 2015

Hawick seems a possibility, but the Carlisle stretch seems difficult to justify as yet except as a diversionary route, and if you're going to spend that much on a new route why not build it to Newcastle instead, which is where most Edinburgh trains actually go. (Or does the geography work against this?)

Berwick might be a reasonable place to go too, because then you could get Coldstream and Kelso and link to London bound trains without going all the way back to Edinburgh.

I'd be very pleased to see further expansion when the current route has proved itself, but it must be useful expansion.

I'd be happy to be convinced that the Carlisle stretch is worthwhile though.

Question about Hawick though, where would you think a station could be built? Next to the leisure centre or is somewhere else better?

nuneatonmark · 15 Sep 2015

Hey guys, we've gone off on a bit of a tangent here! Can we try to bring it back closer to original question but with a small change. Alternative projects for up to £500m that would have brought greater benefits than Borders rail and why? A few have been mentioned and I appreciate that it may be tricky to estimate the cost but have a go!

nottinghamcity · 15 Sep 2015

nuneatonmark said:
Hey guys, we've gone off on a bit of a tangent here! Can we try to bring it back closer to original question but with a small change. Alternative projects for up to £500m that would have brought greater benefits than Borders rail and why? A few have been mentioned and I appreciate that it may be tricky to estimate the cost but have a go!

I was kind of thinking of additional rolling stock for XC and LM to reduce overcrowding in the West Midlands. 500m should buy a good few 172s and 350s. Then I found this:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-34255933
So perhaps a couple of the 172s may be needed in Scotland too!

adrock1976 · 15 Sep 2015

Perhaps maybe straightening out the section of the Caledonian Railway main line between Carlisle Citadel and Carstairs (or a new alignment designed for High Speed), and also maybe straightening out most of the Lancaster & Carlisle Railway?

AngusH · 15 Sep 2015

nuneatonmark said:
Hey guys, we've gone off on a bit of a tangent here! Can we try to bring it back closer to original question but with a small change. Alternative projects for up to £500m that would have brought greater benefits than Borders rail and why? A few have been mentioned and I appreciate that it may be tricky to estimate the cost but have a go!

One of the big things is that there aren't many entire council areas that have no rail service at all. I believe Midlothian had no railway stations at all previously and neither did the Borders council area.

Are there any other areas that have as little coverage? Most of the outlying islands I guess, but mainland?

We then get into questions as to whether the railway system should be trying to focus on high density point to point or provide a general coverage network. Which is a political choice I guess?

Altnabreac · 15 Sep 2015

AngusH said:
One of the big things is that there aren't many entire council areas that have no rail service at all. I believe Midlothian had no railway stations at all previously and neither did the Borders council area.

Are there any other areas that have as little coverage? Most of the outlying islands I guess, but mainland?

We then get into questions as to whether the railway system should be trying to focus on high density point to point or provide a general coverage network. Which is a political choice I guess?

I believe now Midlothian and Borders are connected to the National Rail network if we exclude 4 of the island authorities (Orkney, Shetland, Eilean Siar and Isles of Scilly) then the only top level British Authority not served is North Tyneside. Along with South Tyneside (which only has a tiny corner of platform at Brockley Whins) it is of course well served by the Metro.

If we look instead at historic counties then National Rail serves all in England and Wales but Scotland has 5 rail less mainland counties: Berwickshire, Selkirkshire, Peeblesshire, Kinrosshire and the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright.

Berwickshire is looking likely to gain a station at Reston in the next year or 2. Selkirkshire is a bit of a technicality as most of Galashiels is in the county but the station is not. Kinrosshire might see a station if the direct line to Perth reopened. Peebles and the Stewartry are unlikely ever to be rail served again.

cjt0131 · 15 Sep 2015

Altnabreac said:
Selkirkshire is a bit of a technicality as most of Galashiels is in the county but the station is not.

please explain what makes you think this

Altnabreac · 16 Sep 2015

cjt0131 said:
please explain what makes you think this

The new Galashiels station is in the historic county of Roxburghshire, as is Tweedbank.

However given the county boundary mainly ran down the Gala Water this means that there is now a station within a few hundred metres of land that was in historic Selkirkshire so it is difficult to say nowhere in Selkirkshire is ssrved by rail even if technically no National Rail station is technically located in the historic county.

DynamicSpirit · 16 Sep 2015

nuneatonmark said:
Hey guys, we've gone off on a bit of a tangent here! Can we try to bring it back closer to original question but with a small change. Alternative projects for up to £500m that would have brought greater benefits than Borders rail and why? A few have been mentioned and I appreciate that it may be tricky to estimate the cost but have a go!

OK I'll bite on this. The following are schemes that I'd like to see done, for which I'm guessing any one of them could be done for less than £500m, and which, based on population levels in the affected areas, look to me like they would probably be used by many more passengers than Borders Rail. (I'm being careful with my words here: None of these give the benefit of opening up a whole new part of the country to the rail network, which I think is a significant but immeasurable benefit of Borders Rail, but if you want to measure 'benefit' solely by new passenger numbers, these should hopefully pass the test )

1. Extend from Blackpool South to Blackpool Central and tunnel through to Blackpool North, with suitable doubling to allow a metro-frequency service connecting most of Blackpool.

2. Reroute the Watford-St. Albans service into St. Albans City, and doubling/signalling, to allow a frequent Watford-Luton service, thereby connecting a huge population to the WCML. (Note: Full benefits would only arise once HS2 is built, allowing many more of the existing WCML services to call at Watford Junction).

3. Reopen High Wycombe-Bourne End. If space can be found for a flyover at Maidenhead (might need to be East of the station), use this to run through High Wycombe-Heathrow services once the Heathrow western spur is built. This also gives High Wycombe-Reading connectivity.

4 Track/signalling improvements between Marylebone and High Wycombe to allow metro frequency all-stops trains from Marylebone to West Ruislip/High Wycombe.

5. Extend the GOBLIN from the new Barking Riverside station to Thamesmead and Abbey Wood.

backontrack · 16 Sep 2015

DynamicSpirit said:
OK I'll bite on this. The following are schemes that I'd like to see done, for which I'm guessing any one of them could be done for less than £500m, and which, based on population levels in the affected areas, look to me like they would probably be used by many more passengers than Borders Rail. (I'm being careful with my words here: None of these give the benefit of opening up a whole new part of the country to the rail network, which I think is a significant but immeasurable benefit of Borders Rail, but if you want to measure 'benefit' solely by new passenger numbers, these should hopefully pass the test )

1. Extend from Blackpool South to Blackpool Central and tunnel through to Blackpool North, with suitable doubling to allow a metro-frequency service connecting most of Blackpool.

2. Reroute the Watford-St. Albans service into St. Albans City, and doubling/signalling, to allow a frequent Watford-Luton service, thereby connecting a huge population to the WCML. (Note: Full benefits would only arise once HS2 is built, allowing many more of the existing WCML services to call at Watford Junction).

3. Reopen High Wycombe-Bourne End. If space can be found for a flyover at Maidenhead (might need to be East of the station), use this to run through High Wycombe-Heathrow services once the Heathrow western spur is built. This also gives High Wycombe-Reading connectivity.

4 Track/signalling improvements between Marylebone and High Wycombe to allow metro frequency all-stops trains from Marylebone to West Ruislip/High Wycombe.

5. Extend the GOBLIN from the new Barking Riverside station to Thamesmead and Abbey Wood.

Only ONE of these is not in the South of England.

Domh245 · 16 Sep 2015

Without being absolutely certain, I think that DynamicSpirit lives in or around London, and so is more well versed with rail improvements that are needed in that area. For example, jcollins will have many suggestions for improvements in the North West, and similarly Grimsby Pacer could come up with a whole load of improvements for Humberside.

backontrack · 16 Sep 2015

Domh245 said:
Without being absolutely certain, I think that DynamicSpirit lives in or around London, and so is more well versed with rail improvements that are needed in that area. For example, jcollins will have many suggestions for improvements in the North West, and similarly Grimsby Pacer could come up with a whole load of improvements for Humberside.

Yeah, you're right. I'd suggest that Thornton-Leven could be done quite cheaply.

AngusH · 16 Sep 2015

Personally I think the Waverley line is probably the best of the bunch of Scottish possibilities currently available.

For an alternative in Scotland I'd suggest doubling the line to Inverness and then trying to generally increase line speeds and improve journey times to ensure that they are always faster than the coach.

Regarding alternatives in England/Wales:
Isn't the money spent in Scotland on transport just an (somewhat) equivalent share of money that has already been spent in England/Wales under the Barnet formula?

So the England/Wales works have already been constructed and the Waverley route is just a match to things that have already been built in England?

Although I can't think what: Cross Rail maybe?

yorkie · 16 Sep 2015

Another reminder that this thread is to post your suggestions for:-

nuneatonmark said:
Hey guys, we've gone off on a bit of a tangent here! Can we try to bring it back closer to original question but with a small change. Alternative projects for up to £500m that would have brought greater benefits than Borders rail and why? A few have been mentioned and I appreciate that it may be tricky to estimate the cost but have a go!

There is a lengthy Borders Railway - Now Open thread to discuss the Borders railway itself. I've just moved a post there.

NotATrainspott · 16 Sep 2015

DynamicSpirit said:
1. Extend from Blackpool South to Blackpool Central and tunnel through to Blackpool North, with suitable doubling to allow a metro-frequency service connecting most of Blackpool.

Blackpool already has a metro network. The rebuilt tram system is more than capable of taking over the Blackpool South line and could be extended along the Blackpool North line corridor in future if really required. No need for hundreds of millions of pounds of tunnelling here.

DynamicSpirit · 17 Sep 2015

backontrack said:
Only ONE of these is not in the South of England.

The requirement was simply to suggest schemes of up to around £500m that might give better returns than Borders Railway. The OP didn't specify any geographical restrictions

Domh245 said:
Without being absolutely certain, I think that DynamicSpirit lives in or around London, and so is more well versed with rail improvements that are needed in that area. For example, jcollins will have many suggestions for improvements in the North West, and similarly Grimsby Pacer could come up with a whole load of improvements for Humberside.

That is correct.

£300M for the Borders Railway? Value for money or better spent elsewhere?

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