• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

"I'm going to the papers about this"

Status
Not open for further replies.

Fare-Cop

Member
Joined
5 Aug 2010
Messages
950
Location
England
A little light relief and a great illustration of why a hard line is taken in so many RP cases these days.

I am told that the following was overheard at Wrexham Central station on Thursday morning when a woman who had travelled the day before without ticket was again stopped at the station exit and again hadn't paid

"This is f***ing disgusting, this is the second time I've been asked to pay this week, I'm going to the papers about this, you lot have been here every day this week."

:) :)
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

headshot119

Established Member
Joined
31 Dec 2010
Messages
2,052
Location
Dubai
A little light relief and a great illustration of why a hard line is taken in so many RP cases these days.

I am told that the following was overheard at Wrexham Central station on Thursday morning when a woman who had travelled the day before without ticket was again stopped at the station exit and again hadn't paid

"This is f***ing disgusting, this is the second time I've been asked to pay this week, I'm going to the papers about this, you lot have been here every day this week."

:) :)

Nice to see ATW are running some revenue protection operations on the Borderlands line again.

They had the same reaction when they did a sting at Gwersylt.
 

Matt Taylor

Established Member
Joined
31 Aug 2008
Messages
2,339
Location
Portsmouth
I caught the same woman on the same train twice in three days with no ticket and wanting to use her railcard from a station with a ticket office and several TVMs but no barriers). I refused the railcard discount the first time and then again on the second occasion at which point she said it was outrageous and she would be making a complaint.

I hope she does, it proves I'm doing my job properly.
 

Blindtraveler

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2011
Messages
9,600
Location
Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
All Cudoss to rail staff doing their jobs here. Just makes me cross when TOCs are cutting back on the provision and opperating hours of booking offices due to low usage but yet we have people like this and idiots such as those working for STM on behalf of Northern who will penalise those with a good reason, i.e unable to use the machine, for not paying as no ticket office available.
 

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
A conversation I overheard sometime ago : "Nah! You can get a bus if you like, but the trains are free."

. . . . , this is the second time I've been asked to pay this week, I'm going to the papers about this, . . . .
If she feels really agreived, she could allow the nasty railway company to pursue one of the offences for ticketless travel against her, and then consider bringing about an action for Malicious Prosecution against the nasty company. Ms Berry did just this in 1961, (in Berry v. British Transport Commission) which became a notorious and convoluted dispute rattling on through several courts, and concluding in an out of Court settlement.

[PS I do not recommend this line of action to anyone. Berry was accused of wrongful use of the 'communication cord' to stop the train, not of fare evasion]
 
Last edited:

Tim R-T-C

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2011
Messages
2,143
I hope she does, it proves I'm doing my job properly.

At least you get the company behind you in these sort of cases.

Sucks in customer service when you do the right thing but the corporate help lines decide to side with the customer in the name of "good service" and then you look wrong or at worst money-grubbing.
 

185

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
4,969
They had the same reaction when they did a sting at Gwersylt.

This one >> http://www.wrexham.com/news/court-threat-for-teenager-over-60p-gwersyllt-train-fare-36232.html

Think this is a little different from that Gwersylt operation. That was a station block operation at Gwersylt where passengers were told as there were no facilities available at Wrexham, they should have sought out the guard, (even on that packed f&s train), then reported for fare evasion (imo wrongfully). In any event, a former Chester guard had stated there simply isn't enough time to get through on the Bidstons between stops - it affects safety.

Usually I'm one of the first to offer to tie the rope for fare dodgers, but when it comes to even dumber greedy train companies reluctant to spend money on providing proper retail facilities, I have some sympathy with the punters. It makes the job harder for us staff.

This sounds like a checking off operation, simply making people pay when ticketless. I reckon in terms of revenue and retail, the line would do better if put in a different franchise.
 

headshot119

Established Member
Joined
31 Dec 2010
Messages
2,052
Location
Dubai
This one >> http://www.wrexham.com/news/court-threat-for-teenager-over-60p-gwersyllt-train-fare-36232.html

Think this is a little different from that Gwersylt operation. That was a station block operation at Gwersylt where passengers were told as there were no facilities available at Wrexham, they should have sought out the guard, (even on that packed f&s train), then reported for fare evasion (imo wrongfully). In any event, a former Chester guard had stated there simply isn't enough time to get through on the Bidstons between stops - it affects safety.

Usually I'm one of the first to offer to tie the rope for fare dodgers, but when it comes to even dumber greedy train companies reluctant to spend money on providing proper retail facilities, I have some sympathy with the punters. It makes the job harder for us staff.

This sounds like a checking off operation, simply making people pay when ticketless. I reckon in terms of revenue and retail, the line would do better if put in a different franchise.

Both Wrexham Stations have (and had at the time of the article) TVMs and General has a ticket office open most of the day. People should be buying before they board. And I'd say almost everyone is doing it deliberately knowing the guard can't get to them.
 
Last edited:

jamesbwxm

Member
Joined
6 Aug 2012
Messages
36
I noticed the TVM at Central for the first time today (I mormally travel from General). Looks fairly new and suspect it was installed not long before the Gwersylt block. Most pax would have been used to purchasing on the train although Gwersylt is too close for the Guard to get around and sell tickets so would normally get away without paying.

It was seen locally as very unfair. I had no sympathy for those caught though. The normal ATW "pay before you travel" and SMUG posters were up.
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
I noticed the TVM at Central for the first time today (I mormally travel from General). Looks fairly new and suspect it was installed not long before the Gwersylt block. Most pax would have been used to purchasing on the train although Gwersylt is too close for the Guard to get around and sell tickets so would normally get away without paying.

It was seen locally as very unfair. I had no sympathy for those caught though. The normal ATW "pay before you travel" and SMUG posters were up.

I am sure that most of those who were done were still quids in from the number of free trips they have had previously compared to paying every time! ;)
 

headshot119

Established Member
Joined
31 Dec 2010
Messages
2,052
Location
Dubai
I noticed the TVM at Central for the first time today (I mormally travel from General). Looks fairly new and suspect it was installed not long before the Gwersylt block. Most pax would have been used to purchasing on the train although Gwersylt is too close for the Guard to get around and sell tickets so would normally get away without paying.

It was seen locally as very unfair. I had no sympathy for those caught though. The normal ATW "pay before you travel" and SMUG posters were up.

It was in long before that Gwersylt block.
 

185

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
4,969
Anyone know if the new TVM is card only or a fullsize one?
 

Tracky

Member
Joined
18 Jul 2011
Messages
483
Wrexham General has a ticket office open throughout the day and a full S&B cash (notes & coin) and card TVM offering the full range of fares. Wrexham Central has a full S&B cash (notes & coin) and card TVM offering the full range of fares. Both machines were fitted at more or less the same time several years ago.

Passenger flow on the southern half of the route tends to be towards Wrexham so in terms of Revenue collection it is down to the guards on the journey into Wrexham to take fares. From observation I suspect a fair proportion is actually collected in this way other than on the morning peak time train to Wrexham and other than from Gwersyllt due to high passenger numbers and the time available.

Given the instruction that passengers should buy at the first opertunuty where facilities are provided those who arrive without a ticket are then expected to pay before boarding on the return. The difference between a single and return fare being minimal. This policy is well advertised on posters on the 150 fleet and at stations.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
Wrexham General has a ticket office open throughout the day and a full S&B cash (notes & coin) and card TVM offering the full range of fares. Wrexham Central has a full S&B cash (notes & coin) and card TVM offering the full range of fares.

How sure are you about my bold?
 

Tracky

Member
Joined
18 Jul 2011
Messages
483
Well, excepting Rangers and rovers, yes.

And the lack of rover ticket availability will not affect the revenue issue that is ticketless travellers on the £1.10 single and £1.20 return to Gwersyllt.
 

Fare-Cop

Member
Joined
5 Aug 2010
Messages
950
Location
England
the lack of rover ticket availability will not affect the revenue issue that is ticketless travellers on the £1.10 single and £1.20 return to Gwersyllt.

Absolutely right, strict liability Byelaw 18.1 offence and if leaving the station without having declared & paid, very easy to prove intent under RoRA S5(3) too
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
This is the reality in Greater Manchester after dark.

I witnessed my first ever ticket inspection on a post-10pm Northern Rail service and it was a female conductor who did the ticket inspection, despite all the male conductors who post on here that they don't dare venture out at that time citing they might get attacked if they ask for tickets at that time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I caught the same woman on the same train twice in three days with no ticket and wanting to use her railcard from a station with a ticket office and several TVMs but no barriers). I refused the railcard discount the first time and then again on the second occasion at which point she said it was outrageous and she would be making a complaint.

I hope she does, it proves I'm doing my job properly.

It's well publicised that discounted tickets aren't (usually) sold on board if you boarded at a station with an open ticket office. However, what's less clear is if there is no ticket office but TVMs are available or if you only require a full price ticket. Many people seem to genuinely be under the impression you can board a train at a station with a staffed ticket office without a ticket if you intend to buy a full priced ticket on board.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
Well, excepting Rangers and rovers, yes.

And the lack of rover ticket availability will not affect the revenue issue that is ticketless travellers on the £1.10 single and £1.20 return to Gwersyllt.

Well I'm pleased they're now able to sell tickets from another station, tickets for the future, 7-Day, Monthly, Custom and Annual Season tickets, Super Off-Peak tickets, local railcard discounted tickets, and Special Fares. They must be even better than London Overground.
 

Tracky

Member
Joined
18 Jul 2011
Messages
483
Well I'm pleased they're now able to sell tickets from another station, tickets for the future, 7-Day, Monthly, Custom and Annual Season tickets, Super Off-Peak tickets, local railcard discounted tickets, and Special Fares. They must be even better than London Overground.

Now I know you are just playing devils advocate and being a pedant over the wording in my original post.

Your frothing doesn't alter that in the context of this thread, the machine is more than adequate for the location.

They do sell tickets for the following day, they can sell 7 day tickets, if super off peak tickets were available on the route these would be available and if you do not know the location for the discussion you have chosen to join in on, I can confirm Wrexham General with its manned (expertly so) ticket office is within walking distance of Wrexham Central.
 

headshot119

Established Member
Joined
31 Dec 2010
Messages
2,052
Location
Dubai
Wrexham General has a ticket office open throughout the day and a full S&B cash (notes & coin) and card TVM offering the full range of fares. Wrexham Central has a full S&B cash (notes & coin) and card TVM offering the full range of fares. Both machines were fitted at more or less the same time several years ago.

Passenger flow on the southern half of the route tends to be towards Wrexham so in terms of Revenue collection it is down to the guards on the journey into Wrexham to take fares. From observation I suspect a fair proportion is actually collected in this way other than on the morning peak time train to Wrexham and other than from Gwersyllt due to high passenger numbers and the time available.

Given the instruction that passengers should buy at the first opertunuty where facilities are provided those who arrive without a ticket are then expected to pay before boarding on the return. The difference between a single and return fare being minimal. This policy is well advertised on posters on the 150 fleet and at stations.

The machine at General went in years before the one at Central.

The one at Central also spent a few months when first installed not accepting card payments.

But I agree they both now and before the infamous block accepted Cash and Card and offered suitable tickets for everyone travelling.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
Now I know you are just playing devils advocate and being a pedant over the wording in my original post.

Your frothing doesn't alter that in the context of this thread, the machine is more than adequate for the location.

They do sell tickets for the following day, they can sell 7 day tickets, if super off peak tickets were available on the route these would be available and if you do not know the location for the discussion you have chosen to join in on, I can confirm Wrexham General with its manned (expertly so) ticket office is within walking distance of Wrexham Central.

Unfortunately, the wording is important. The range of fares on offer is of crucial importance in some cases, and apart from London Overground, who come exceedingly close, not many operator's machines do a good job; this is the point I sought to make. S&B machines, from bitter personal experience, are very user-unfriendly.

It's a long-standing issue that if the machine operator doesn't price irregular ticket types, such as Super Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak day (but there are others) they won't be available. Try buying a Super Off-Peak Day Return to Nottingham from the machine at Levenshulme (actually I need to check if my endless mithering about them being missing has borne fruit yet, so watch this space...) But the point is I wasn't merely being facetious.
 
Last edited:

Fare-Cop

Member
Joined
5 Aug 2010
Messages
950
Location
England
But the point is I wasn't merely being facetious.

Facetious, no, probably not, but in the context of the individuals not having bought a ticket for the journeys being identified by the inspectors at the time, your comments are entirely irrelevant and I think that's the real point.

It seems that each of the travellers reported could have used either a staffed ticket office or TVMs accepting cash & card payments to pay for their journey, but chose not to do so despite the many warnings.

That is they could have paid for the actual point-to-point journey that they were making (including the cheapest return)
 
Last edited:

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
That's what we've been told. But we have to trust that revenue protection staff had the appropriate safeguards in place to ensure that people who couldn't use the machine in the way they needed to weren't unduly penalised. I'm much more in favor of such activities where a ticket office is provided, and the TOC can be much more uneqivocal about the intent to avoid a fare then.

I come from a part of the world where such safeguards aren't in place, and people who want to use payment methods TVMs don't accept or can't use them be because of disabilities are at risk of being summarily prosecuted, so you'll have to forgive my cynicism.
 

Fare-Cop

Member
Joined
5 Aug 2010
Messages
950
Location
England
That's what we've been told. But we have to trust that revenue protection staff had the appropriate safeguards in place to ensure that people who couldn't use the machine in the way they needed to weren't unduly penalised.


That exactly the point isn't it....TRUST

It seems you are saying that we are expected to trust that those travellers who say: "I couldn't get a ticket because......." are almost always to be trusted, but at the same time, that the inspector who has identified a traveller without ticket and without good reason for that lack of ticket is somehow less worthy of being trusted !

To return to the specific area and locations involved, the TOC runs a service and does provide the facilities to pay their fare and TRUSTS people to use them

Too high a proportion of travellers abuse that trust.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
I don't disagree that there are large numbers of chancers out there who know exactly what they are doing and will go to any length to avoid paying. But you have to understand that:

a) those people aren't the people contributing to this forum and
b) the only completely effective way for your employers to resolve the 'trust' issue that you rightly identify is to provide better ticketing facilities - in the case mentioned, staffing Wrexham Central would be that solution.

Unfortunately the railway very often doesn't want to pay for the solution to that problem. If that's the case (as it appears to be given the sparseness and quality of ATWs facilites - although the new machines are rather better than the old ones and some are even going in in very sensible places and numbers - one right on each of the two platforms at Runcorn East) then they will just have to trust the punters, won't they.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top