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My bad experience travelling on FGW from Clifton (26/09): Total and utter debacle.

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najaB

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It's complicated and something which should be seriously looked at for the safety of all involved. Had any of these students been injured or killed in their bid for freedom and I was a guard I would be asking myself what I could have done to stop it, hindsight is a wonderful thing.
We should always look to see what we can learn from past events - I think that in this case the real failure occurred at the planning stage. The event organisers underestimated the stress that would be put on transportation and didn't work closely enough with the rail and bus companies.

Given that it is rarely possible to arrange for extra train services they should look at how they can reduce the demand at the small stations - maybe the buses that were available should have been going to the larger train stations, rather than trying to lay on direct buses to places that people (apparently) didn't want to be.
 
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andykn

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People will accuse me of defending anything the railway does and that's not my intention but it's not as simple as blaming the toc here. Where do people think they will get the extra stock from? It's not possible to simply stop people birding without setting up large queuing systems to control the crowds which requires lots of staff and costs money. Why should FGW pay for these extra staff?

Because they are getting the extra passenger revenue!
 

najaB

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Because they are getting the extra passenger revenue!
I'm less confident than you are that the additional revenue will outweigh the additional costs - there would probably be quite substantial overtime premiums to pay.
 

andykn

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It would seem more sensible to have waited in the platform until the signal cleared, in order that anyone could alight if they wished.

TfL have now come to appreciate that stopping crowded trains between stations will be distressing for passengers and will quite frequently hold a train at a platform until the next platform becomes free rather than pull off and wait between stations.

On a train in the open it will be less distressing and with larger gaps between stations it's not going to be always possible but it would seem daft if arbitrary delay attribution rules prevented it where possible.
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I'm less confident than you are that the additional revenue will outweigh the additional costs - there would probably be quite substantial overtime premiums to pay.

I don't find it acceptable to tell the travelling public that the railway companies aren't prepared to convey them on their railways.
 

najaB

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I don't find it acceptable to tell the travelling public that the railway companies aren't prepared to convey them on their railways.
There is a finite capacity. If you find it unacceptable that the railway can't carry five or ten times more passengers than they normally would on an arbitrary weekend afternoon then you have unreasonably high expectations. You must be disappointed a lot.
 

A-driver

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Because they are getting the extra passenger revenue!


No they won't, not considerable anyway. It appears most passengers were travelling a short distance so unlikely to be paying much for their tickets (plus student railcard discounts).

The costs of laying on extra staff and having extra stock etc will cost far, far more than any extra revenue they take.

Perhaps the event organisers should have had more buses for their event? Or limited ticket numbers to a more manageable amount for the railway to deal with? Or looked for a better location which is more accessible?
 

andykn

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There is a finite capacity. If you find it unacceptable that the railway can't carry five or ten times more passengers than they normally would on an arbitrary weekend afternoon then you have unreasonably high expectations. You must be disappointed a lot.

Indeed there is finite capacity, and during the weekday rush that is frequently reached.

But to suggest that at the weekend that finite capacity is anywhere close is unreasonable.

Look at the extra trains being put on for tonight's rugby match.

And yes, I am disappointed at our railway system a lot.
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Or limited ticket numbers to a more manageable amount for the railway to deal with?

Really? Economic activity has to contract according to what the railway can be bothered to provide to run on the tracks the taxpayer provides?
 

najaB

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Look at the extra trains being put on for tonight's rugby match.
You will probably find that transportation planning for the RWC started a at least a couple of years ago and that the organisers, police and government worked with the TOCs to develop a plan based on pretty accurate numbers of fans. I would be very surprised if anything close to that level of organisation went into planning for this festival.
 

A-driver

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Indeed there is finite capacity, and during the weekday rush that is frequently reached.



But to suggest that at the weekend that finite capacity is anywhere close is unreasonable.



Look at the extra trains being put on for tonight's rugby match.



And yes, I am disappointed at our railway system a lot.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




Really? Economic activity has to contract according to what the railway can be bothered to provide to run on the tracks the taxpayer provides?


Bothered? Not about how much they can be bothered to do, it's to do with how many staff and coaches they actually have. They can't have loads of spare stock and staff for a few events a year. The railway is some unlimited transport mode, if you plan an event on a small Branch line which sees one train per hour then this needs to be taken into consideration, not left to 'well the railway will have to run extra trains to meet our demands'.
 

andykn

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Bothered? Not about how much they can be bothered to do, it's to do with how many staff and coaches they actually have. They can't have loads of spare stock and staff for a few events a year. The railway is some unlimited transport mode, if you plan an event on a small Branch line which sees one train per hour then this needs to be taken into consideration, not left to 'well the railway will have to run extra trains to meet our demands'.

But outside the weekday rush there will be spare stock and staff. Just not the desire from the railway company to use them to serve the people who've paid for the stock and track capacity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You will probably find that transportation planning for the RWC started a at least a couple of years ago and that the organisers, police and government worked with the TOCs to develop a plan based on pretty accurate numbers of fans. I would be very surprised if anything close to that level of organisation went into planning for this festival.

They had planned enough to lay on extra buses.

Do you think a football club has to ask local pubs to put on extra staff for a big cup tie?
 

najaB

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But outside the weekday rush there will be spare stock and staff. Just not the desire from the railway company to use them to serve the people who've paid for the stock and track capacity.
Between the fact that weekends are increasingly as busy as week days, and the need for maintenance and rest days you'd be surprised how little 'spare' stock and staff there is in some parts of the network. Witness Scotrail having to recently pare back the Sunday timetable.
They had planned enough to lay on extra buses.
Which, from reports, were nearly as chaotic as the trains - and most of them weren't going anywhere that people wanted to go.
 

455driver

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Because they are getting the extra passenger revenue!

Oh yeah, FGW will employ extra staff just in case they are needed for a once a year event, can you tell me who is going to pay for the staff the other 362* days?


* we don't work Christmas day or Boxing day so I have discounted these 2! ;)
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Between the fact that weekends are increasingly as busy as week days, and the need for maintenance and rest days you'd be surprised how little 'spare' stock and staff there is in some parts of the network.

At my depot today there is one spare 153, everything else on the depot is either out earning its keep, under maintenance or between trips.

I would love to find out where all this spare stock is kept, I mean all we hear about is 'use the spare stock' but nobody is saying where it is kept!
 

Via Bank

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I really dislike this notion that the passengers are somehow the problem here for daring to give the railway their custom.

The problem is not necessarily that there is overcrowding (although clearly this event was pretty poorly managed, as GWR had no chance to put crowd control in place.) The problem in this particular case is that a crush-loaded train was stopped between stations for a long period, and as a result some passengers (either out of panic at being crush-loaded, or frustration) self-evacuated.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that this situation wasn't avoidable.
 

najaB

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The problem in this particular case is that a crush-loaded train was stopped between stations for a long period, and as a result some passengers (either out of panic at being crush-loaded, or frustration) self-evacuated.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that this situation wasn't avoidable.
What we don't know is what the driver knew at the moment (s)he took power at Clifton station. If he knew that it was likely that he would be stopped for a long time before reaching Redland then I agree that staying at Clifton would have been the better option.

I haven't seen anything yet that indicates that was the case.
 

455driver

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I really dislike this notion that the passengers are somehow the problem here for daring to give the railway their custom.

The problem is not necessarily that there is overcrowding (although clearly this event was pretty poorly managed, as GWR had no chance to put crowd control in place.) The problem in this particular case is that a crush-loaded train was stopped between stations for a long period, and as a result some passengers (either out of panic at being crush-loaded, or frustration) self-evacuated.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that this situation wasn't avoidable.
Not according to some it wasn't!
Can you define 'a long period' please?
 

A-driver

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Oh yeah, FGW will employ extra staff just in case they are needed for a once a year event, can you tell me who is going to pay for the staff the other 362* days?





* we don't work Christmas day or Boxing day so I have discounted these 2! ;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




At my depot today there is one spare 153, everything else on the depot is either out earning its keep, under maintenance or between trips.



I would love to find out where all this spare stock is kept, I mean all we hear about is 'use the spare stock' but nobody is saying where it is kept!


Don't work Xmas day or Boxing Day? It's 2015...surely it's not too much to ask that in this day and age we have a train service on these days? After all there are retail sales and football on and people should be able to use the trains to get to...

...sorry, probably still slightly To early for the annual "how dare they not run trains Xmas day & Boxing Day" thread.
 

455driver

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Don't work Xmas day or Boxing Day? It's 2015...surely it's not too much to ask that in this day and age we have a train service on these days? After all there are retail sales and football on and people should be able to use the trains to get to...

...sorry, probably still slightly To early for the annal "how dare they not run trains Xmas day & Boxing Day" thread.

Tee hee hee, you are naughty aren't you! :lol:

I did a slight edit for accuracy! ;)
 

andykn

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Between the fact that weekends are increasingly as busy as week days, and the need for maintenance and rest days you'd be surprised how little 'spare' stock and staff there is in some parts of the network. Witness Scotrail having to recently pare back the Sunday timetable.

But there's plenty of spare stock off peak in other places that could be moved over the network (clue's in the name). They start filling the engine sheds at Clapham Junction while I'm still on my way to work.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh yeah, FGW will employ extra staff just in case they are needed for a once a year event, can you tell me who is going to pay for the staff the other 362* days?


* we don't work Christmas day or Boxing day so I have discounted these 2! ;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


At my depot today there is one spare 153, everything else on the depot is either out earning its keep, under maintenance or between trips.

I would love to find out where all this spare stock is kept, I mean all we hear about is 'use the spare stock' but nobody is saying where it is kept!

How many 12 car units are used on the C2C at weekends? And I'll bet Clapham has plenty of stock parked up right now that's only ued in the weekday peaks.

And even that spare 153 would have helped.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Don't work Xmas day or Boxing Day? It's 2015...surely it's not too much to ask that in this day and age we have a train service on these days? After all there are retail sales and football on and people should be able to use the trains to get to...

...sorry, probably still slightly To early for the annual "how dare they not run trains Xmas day & Boxing Day" thread.

Didn't trains used to run on Boxing day?
 

najaB

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But there's plenty of spare stock off peak in other places that could be moved over the network (clue's in the name). They start filling the engine sheds at Clapham Junction while I'm still on my way to work.
Different TOC, different part of the network so completely irrelevant.

Edit: Oh, and forgot to mention that most of the stock at Clapham is 3rd-rail so even less use!
 
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andykn

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What we don't know is what the driver knew at the moment (s)he took power at Clifton station. If he knew that it was likely that he would be stopped for a long time before reaching Redland then I agree that staying at Clifton would have been the better option.

I haven't seen anything yet that indicates that was the case.

I'd like to think there was a bit more central control than that and it wasn't left up to the driver; I doubt that's how TfL try and prevent possibly trains stopping between stations.
 

andykn

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Different TOC, different part of the network so completely irrelevant.

Only to today's modern, customer indifferent railway. Most other industries would not see those as bizarrely insurmountable obstacles.

And even then, it's just an example of spare unused peak weekday stock, there must be others in the Bristol/Cardiff areas.
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TfL isn't a mainline train operator.

No, but it does illustrate how an organisation that does give a damn can attempt to minimise distress to its customers by trying to not allow crowded trains to leave stations if they are going to get stuck before the next one.

Most organisations respond to customer issues by trying to improve, not by just blaming the customer.
 

najaB

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No, but it does illustrate how an organisation that does give a damn can attempt to minimise distress to its customers by trying to not allow crowded trains to leave stations if they are going to get stuck before the next one.
No, it demonstrates how a completely different network is run using a completely different set of operational rules. About the only thing that the tube and mainline railway have in common is that they both run on standard gauge track.

What's the typical distance (or running time if you prefer) between tube stations and how does that compare to the distance between NR stations? I think that comparison will explain quite a bit.

Edit: Oh, I forgot to add - I'm pretty sure (though not 100%) that the 'no stopping between stations' rule only applies to the underground portion of the tube network.
 
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bb21

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Only to today's modern, customer indifferent railway. Most other industries would not see those as bizarrely insurmountable obstacles.

And even then, it's just an example of spare unused peak weekday stock, there must be others in the Bristol/Cardiff areas.

Until that can be confirmed, I doubt it. Many will be on maintenance and it is not as if there would be that many that would be in the depot anyway considering how short FGW are during weekdays.

There is probably plenty of electric stock sitting spare but what good would they do in the Bristol area?

National shortage of diesel stocks, quite simply put. It is a strategic management issue and you can probably pin the blame on the government for that for penny-pinching and the lack of long-term visions from years gone by.
 

455driver

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Most organisations respond to customer issues by trying to improve, not by just blaming the customer.

Most organisations are allowed to purchase additional equipment as they need it, the railways cant so your 'examples' are totally pointless, just like the rest of your posts.
When you understand how the railways are controlled by the DaFT feel free to post a solution that would work!

Using another pointless example-

How would Asda cope if 300 people suddenly went shopping in one of their stores on a Saturday afternoon without warning, do you think they would magic up enough staff to open all the tills with 5 minutes notice?
 
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34D

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People will accuse me of defending anything the railway does and that's not my intention but it's not as simple as blaming the toc here. Where do people think they will get the extra stock from? It's not possible to simply stop people birding without setting up large queuing systems to control the crowds which requires lots of staff and costs money. Why should FGW pay for these extra staff? That should be down to the event organiser like often is the case with other big events.

Rail operators don't have spare stock. There isn't any spare stock in the UK. I see people on a daily basis cramming onto my train and complaining about how 'dangerously overcrowded' it is whilst continuing to force their way onto the 'dangerous' train rather than wait for the next one.

Well, all the stock that just does peaks only? Or unstrengthen something else?

Are you really telling me that when arsenal play at home they pay FCC (or whatever called this week) to strengthen trains and run extra ones?

I doubt it, but won't presume.

Surely this was a major event that the toc should have noted, if they wanted to enjoy the extra business?
 

najaB

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Surely this was a major event that the toc should have noted, if they wanted to enjoy the extra business?
Something like 10,000 people so not really that big an event in the scheme of things - about a sixth the size of an Arsenal game. And spread out over the course of the day as well, unlike a football match.
 

andykn

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Most organisations are allowed to purchase additional equipment as they need it, the railways cant so your 'examples' are totally pointless, just like the rest of your posts.
When you understand how the railways are controlled by the DaFT feel free to post a solution that would work!
So you're trying to tell me that in the Bristol/Cardiff area there's no peak stock that's unused at weekends?
Using another pointless example-

How would Asda cope if 300 people suddenly went shopping in one of their stores on a Saturday afternoon without warning, do you think they would magic up enough staff to open all the tills with 5 minutes notice?

Like I said earlier, do you think a football club begs the local pubs to staff up for a big cup tie?
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Until that can be confirmed, I doubt it. Many will be on maintenance and it is not as if there would be that many that would be in the depot anyway considering how short FGW are during weekdays.

There is probably plenty of electric stock sitting spare but what good would they do in the Bristol area?

National shortage of diesel stocks, quite simply put. It is a strategic management issue and you can probably pin the blame on the government for that for penny-pinching and the lack of long-term visions from years gone by.

My point is that the shortage is at weekday peaks, not weekends.
 

najaB

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My point is that the shortage is at weekday peaks, not weekends.
And again I point out - outside London there isn't a massive difference between weekday and weekend DMU fleet utilisation, and what difference exists is largely accounted for by required maintenance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You're also ignoring the fact that the Severn Beach Line is largely single track with very few passing loops. So even if stock could be found it would be very hard to increase the frequency of service.
 

bb21

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Like I said earlier, do you think a football club begs the local pubs to staff up for a big cup tie?

No, and ime I have regularly found that for a fixture attracting a larger than usual crowd, I am turned away from pubs because they are too full.
 
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