It's not a level playing field unfortunately. If we make a mistake we can be prosecuted. If they make a mistake that's a very different matter. I doubt you will be successful. The likes of Transport Focus are not interested. I can understand your frustration but try not to get too angry about it as it won't help.
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Rochford to London via Southend issues with c2c and PF
- Thread starter Llanigraham
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gray1404
Established Member
I personally would let the matter go. You have already spent (or wasted) a lot of time and energy (and possibly money) on this matter and it has been to very limited avail. Knowing when to quit it important. Yes, it is frustrating but I do not think you will achieve anything further I'm afraid.
deltic
Established Member
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OP if you want to take the matter further I suggest you distill your case to a maximum of 2 sides and send it your MP and the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman. In doing so you should clearly and dispassionately set out what happened, where the TOC and Transport Focus have not met your expectations and the remedy you are seeking - the latter should not include any disciplinary action against staff.
I'll take the £30 of RTVs if you don't want them? I'll give them to a couple of skint pensioners I know as it will help them get oot the hoose for a wee jolly. You will have the benefit of knowing that your misfortune could potentially help others less fortunate than yourself.
Have you thought about the small claims court or even Judge Rinder - I think he would rip the proverbial out of c2c's "Fares Expert".
Seriously: I have read all sixty pages of your epistle and whilst I believe that you are correct in your assumption that you wished to travel on a valid route there is a very personal edge to your complaints. e.g.:-
"Nigerian law degree"
Ouch! I think that even if they (c2c) know that they are wrong they will now fight you tooth & claw to the bitter end. Even if you win this battle I am convinced that you have p1$$ed them off so much that they will try to get the rules regarding this routeing changed quick smart.
It is not easy, I know, when you have expended so much personal effort into a cause but maybe it is time to hand it over to a more dispassionate advisor?
Have you thought about the small claims court or even Judge Rinder - I think he would rip the proverbial out of c2c's "Fares Expert".
Seriously: I have read all sixty pages of your epistle and whilst I believe that you are correct in your assumption that you wished to travel on a valid route there is a very personal edge to your complaints. e.g.:-
"Nigerian law degree"
Ouch! I think that even if they (c2c) know that they are wrong they will now fight you tooth & claw to the bitter end. Even if you win this battle I am convinced that you have p1$$ed them off so much that they will try to get the rules regarding this routeing changed quick smart.
It is not easy, I know, when you have expended so much personal effort into a cause but maybe it is time to hand it over to a more dispassionate advisor?
What £30 in RTV's?
I never accepted their second offer of £15 in RTV's. The first lot were used in part payment of the Derbyshire Wayfarer group ticket.
reb0118 - you don't think that people should be personally accountable for their actions? You think it's OK for them to get personal with me and accuse me of fraud?
To be clear, I never posted this to the forum to get advice - it was in reply to the OP's request for information about how good or bad Transport Focus are.
My document speaks for itself.
Who exactly do I hand it to? Transport Focus were worse than useless.
c2c are already trying to get the routing changed. I am going to dispute this.
I never accepted their second offer of £15 in RTV's. The first lot were used in part payment of the Derbyshire Wayfarer group ticket.
reb0118 - you don't think that people should be personally accountable for their actions? You think it's OK for them to get personal with me and accuse me of fraud?
To be clear, I never posted this to the forum to get advice - it was in reply to the OP's request for information about how good or bad Transport Focus are.
My document speaks for itself.
Who exactly do I hand it to? Transport Focus were worse than useless.
c2c are already trying to get the routing changed. I am going to dispute this.
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DaveNewcastle
Established Member
It does.
But it doesn't speak to me in the way that you might wish it to be understood.
As others have advised, it looks like an unstructured rant at anything and everything that you dislike and would only have utility if it was brief, focussed, and constructive in identifying one desired outcome.
That advice would be true regardless of whom it was addressed to.
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I agree with Dave. Whilst the document is comprehensive you need to write a concise two page version which lays out what happened, what's been done and what realistic outcome you disire. Then I believe the next step would be to go to your MP and the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman.
Simply sending that sixty page document is not likely to produce any outcome with which you might be happy.
Simply sending that sixty page document is not likely to produce any outcome with which you might be happy.
Here is what I am doing:
- At the moment, due to health problems I am taking a break. I am also further researching the issue, which is how I happened upon this thread.
- Hopefully, in a few weeks I am going to be using on of those 'free hour' sessions with a solicitor to introduce the case to them and see if they will take it on a no-win, no-fee basis.
- I am following Transport Focus' own complaints process.
- My local MP is currently off sick - he was off sick for about a year before the election, came back to work just before the election, and went off sick again several weeks after.
- I am writing a seperate letter to the DfT and TF with regard to the planned routing removals. I will post it in a seperate thread here when I'm done. It will be a one page summary with a few pages of evidence.
- Pending the outcome of the solicitors meeting, I will either be taking this to court on my own or through a solicitor.
Mod Note: Split from this thread.
Heres how they dealt with my complaint (so far - I'm not done yet).
Be warned - there are sixty pages!
==============================
Files Here:
texts.pdf - This will be replaced in due course
1_initial_letter_of_complaint_plus_journey_plans_and_ticket_scan.pdf
2_correspondence_log.pdf (use texts.pdf for now).
3_court_claim.pdf - These are the particulars of the court claim
4_correspondence_log_2_between_case_logged_and_case_defended.pdf
5_court_defence.pdf - This is the defence that was filed with the court on c2c's behalf.
6_correspondence_log_3_after_case_defended.pdf : This is all the correspondence that I have since the case was defended up to and inclu
7_letter_of_apology.pdf
Heres how they dealt with my complaint (so far - I'm not done yet).
Be warned - there are sixty pages!
==============================
Files Here:
texts.pdf - This will be replaced in due course
1_initial_letter_of_complaint_plus_journey_plans_and_ticket_scan.pdf
2_correspondence_log.pdf (use texts.pdf for now).
3_court_claim.pdf - These are the particulars of the court claim
4_correspondence_log_2_between_case_logged_and_case_defended.pdf
5_court_defence.pdf - This is the defence that was filed with the court on c2c's behalf.
6_correspondence_log_3_after_case_defended.pdf : This is all the correspondence that I have since the case was defended up to and inclu
7_letter_of_apology.pdf
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That will end only in one way: with her alleging that you have assaulted her (remembering that 'assault' includes having the belief that someone is about to attack you) and police being called to arrest you. It wouldn't surprise me if she stopped the train and sought the assistance of the driver/any other staff to have you restrained.
It is extremely likely to constitute harassment also.
Could I suggest that you work on the one/two page summary and post that back here once done?
I'm not sure if there's a nice way to ask this, but do you suffer from ADHD or a similar condition?
gray1404
Established Member
319321 - where you issued with a PF in this case?
I'm not quite so sure that I would. What I would do is go to my MP and get him/her to go after DfT on the grounds both of the TOCs failure to comply with their franchise agreement and also the complete uselessness of TF.
In my backpocket would be the nuclear option of involving the Daily Heil. Should the MP prove to be useless at first I am sure a kicking from a tabloid might have an effect....
Saw this after my post and I concur. Asking for disciplinary action is inappropriate. Asking for further training for individuals and proof that it has happened on the other hand....
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Having read the document provided the OP was not PF'd.
If that is C2C's response then they deserve to have their reputation publicly trashed and in extremis to have the franchise removed from them.
It's such a shame that Judy Judy is American, I would just love to see some TOC muppet publicly absolutely destroyed by someone like her...
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I rather think you may have misunderstood.
To be clear - I never posted this wanting advice etc, it was only to answer the OP's post in the original thread about whether Transport Focus were any good or not.
The ticket inspector was at the barriers, NOT on a train. An assault is only an assault if it is illegal. I would never perpetrate unlawful violence against another person.
It is irrelevant as to whether or not I suffer from ADHD or another similar condition (I am autistic, but I was not diagnosed as such at the material time). I was a passenger with a valid ticket. That's all they needed to know.
I was not PF'd as I complied with the ticket inspectors instruction (and customer services instruction via telephone) to buy a second ticket to cover my travel from Southend Central to Upminster. I should never have even been threatened with a PF for the reasons explained in my original letter.
I appreciate in a forum such as this there will be those that hold the opinion that the railways can do no wrong and I am a fraudster for travelling with a ticket that was shown to be valid by RJIS and on c2cs own website, and I have answered those critical of me.
The ticket inspector was at the barriers, NOT on a train. An assault is only an assault if it is illegal. I would never perpetrate unlawful violence against another person.
It is irrelevant as to whether or not I suffer from ADHD or another similar condition (I am autistic, but I was not diagnosed as such at the material time). I was a passenger with a valid ticket. That's all they needed to know.
I was not PF'd as I complied with the ticket inspectors instruction (and customer services instruction via telephone) to buy a second ticket to cover my travel from Southend Central to Upminster. I should never have even been threatened with a PF for the reasons explained in my original letter.
I appreciate in a forum such as this there will be those that hold the opinion that the railways can do no wrong and I am a fraudster for travelling with a ticket that was shown to be valid by RJIS and on c2cs own website, and I have answered those critical of me.
If I was travelling from Rochford to Upminster, I would look at the amount saved and was it worth going back three stops and a walk, as opposed to getting a train to Romford, one an hour which stops at Romford without changing. Then getting on the Romford - Upminster shuttle, or alternatively one of a number of local buses.
Eh?
As explained in my letter, I wanted to travel this route to meet a friend in Benfleet. I had already checked my journey was valid using a journey planner. I have the right to choose whichever permitted route to use that I wish, as long as it was permitted, and it was permitted as RJIS showed it was permitted.
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I don't quite follow, but passengers should be entitled to travel by any route which their ticket permits, as per the T&Cs and should feel free to do so without being intimidated or threatened (equally, in the interests of fairness, I will say passengers should obviously not be intimidating or threatening either). In the event of a dispute, Transport Focus should back the customer in such cases.
Sadly the reality can be rather different
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Assault does not have to be actual violence. You approaching the ticket inspector in what they perceive to be a threatening manner could also be an assault.
I would suggest you do not approach any members of staff involved in your "case" at all.
Yet this is exactly what that person through lack of competence in their job could do to many innocent passengers.
I have never proposed to approach the members of staff involved in my case in a threatening manner. I have only threatened to use reasonable force against a member of railway staff who is committing a similar offence to that committed against me on 18 November 2014 - causing me inconvenience by refusing to allow me through the barriers with my valid ticket. In that case, I am protected by the Criminal Law Act 1963.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm glad someone gets why these people cant be allowed to stay in their jobs if ordinary passengers know more than them. It's a health and safety risk for themselves and passengers as much as anything else.
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Llanigraham
On Moderation
Yes you have!
To quote from an earlier page:
You need to be VERY careful about what you propose, especially on Railway Premises or against Railway employees. You comments above could lead you into much worse problems than you already have.
And sorry but your comments above are making you come over as a "barrack room lawyer"
Having words with someone is assault?
Get over yourself!
Even if I am a barrack room lawyer, explain to me:
a) Where I am in the wrong and c2c are in the right
b) why me being a barrack room lawyer is a bad thing
I was doing my best to try and stay out of this, but Health and Saftey? Really? Come on, surely you can do better than trotting that out.
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Can be. Yes. Assault is determined by the effect on the recipient, not the intent of the deliverer.
So workplace violence is not a Health and Safety issue? I worked in retail for more than ten years and it was regularly one of the things most discussed in the Health and Safety Reps newseletter. One of the things that we were told was a factor in many instances was staff not knowing that they were in the right with regards to refunds / statutory rights issues etc, as these can cause the most frustration to a customer.
Workplace violence could happen against a person for breachiong railway byelaws, even if they don't intend to break the law (ie they believe a valid ticket is invalid). Workplace violence could also happen against a passenger.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Riiggghhhhttt...... so no one can talk to anyone else or confront anyone else because they might deem it to be an assault? Passengers had better not ever point out the failures of railway staff or angrily complain about late trains or poor information EVER again.
Get real.
How did we get on to workplace violence? I must admit I didn't read all 60 pages of your complaint but I missed the point where they were violent towards you. Could you explain it to me, please?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Here's the CPS's page on offences against the person, note that all that's required for common assault to have occurred is for the victim to believe that they are at threat of violence. If you accost someone whom you have previously had a disagreement with to angrily 'have words' with them it is entirely reasonable for them to fear the situation is going to escalate.
The *potential* for violence against a member of staff. For example, you are criticising me for threatening lawful violence against their staff. Violence is a health and safety risk.
If a staff member commits a criminal offence against a passenger, the passenger is entitled to use reasonable force against that member of staff to prevent them from continuing to commit that offence. In my case, this would be the member of staff causing me inconvenience by refusing to allow me through the barrier, and me using reasonable force against them so as I may travel.
This risk can be mitigated by properly training staff as to what constitutes a valid ticket, and requiring them to be reasonable to a passenger who can show that their route is valid, rather than unlawfully threatening penalty fares and accusing them of fraud etc.
You are trying to make me out to be a violent person (particularly with youyr comment that if I approach anyone about my case they will be in fear of being assaulted), but in the events that I have described when I was confronted by this oaf what actually happened was:
* I accepted she wasn't going to allow me through
* Rather than shout back at her when she started shouting at me I simply moved away and put a call in to customer services
* When customer services refused to back down I simply purchased another ticket
If a staff member commits a criminal offence against a passenger, the passenger is entitled to use reasonable force against that member of staff to prevent them from continuing to commit that offence. In my case, this would be the member of staff causing me inconvenience by refusing to allow me through the barrier, and me using reasonable force against them so as I may travel.
This risk can be mitigated by properly training staff as to what constitutes a valid ticket, and requiring them to be reasonable to a passenger who can show that their route is valid, rather than unlawfully threatening penalty fares and accusing them of fraud etc.
You are trying to make me out to be a violent person (particularly with youyr comment that if I approach anyone about my case they will be in fear of being assaulted), but in the events that I have described when I was confronted by this oaf what actually happened was:
* I accepted she wasn't going to allow me through
* Rather than shout back at her when she started shouting at me I simply moved away and put a call in to customer services
* When customer services refused to back down I simply purchased another ticket
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Oh dear!!
Yes "having words with someone" can be classed as an assault. I suggest you do some research about it.
It could easily lead you into far greater problems than you already are.
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