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Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

Rational Plan

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The mini-train policy of the last 25 years has been a disaster and needs to be knocked on the head once and for all NOW. If any of the new bids propose continuing to run 2 and 3 car trains they should be binned along with any further use of Pacers by Northern.

The problem is we don't run coaches with engines attached anymore. BR could run long trains easily and cheaply because they yards full of decades old (i.e. fully depreciated and therefore dirt cheap) coaches to call in times peak demand.

The very idea today would give management an attack of the vapours. Can't use those non compliant to crash and accessibility standards old coaches today, especially as they burnt most of them.

Then of course BR spent most of it's time shortening station platforms to save future maintenance costs.

The problem is longer (new) trains cost real money, check out the rental figures compared to a Pacer. Of course pressure for the latest kit, with air con, comfy rides and disability accessible toilets means what current cheap trains you have are going to be axed for more expensive new ones!

Hope these new trains can run on 98% availability as there won't be much spare.
 
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Philip Phlopp

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The problem is we don't run coaches with engines attached anymore. BR could run long trains easily and cheaply because they yards full of decades old (i.e. fully depreciated and therefore dirt cheap) coaches to call in times peak demand.

The very idea today would give management an attack of the vapours. Can't use those non compliant to crash and accessibility standards old coaches today, especially as they burnt most of them.

Then of course BR spent most of it's time shortening station platforms to save future maintenance costs.

The problem is longer (new) trains cost real money, check out the rental figures compared to a Pacer. Of course pressure for the latest kit, with air con, comfy rides and disability accessible toilets means what current cheap trains you have are going to be axed for more expensive new ones!

Hope these new trains can run on 98% availability as there won't be much spare.

Do you want a case for those rose tinted spectacles ?

Do you remember just how awful those old Mark 1 and early Mark 2 coaches were - no central door locking, no passenger intercom, some old non BR stock didn't even have end gangways. They were riddled with asbestos, stuck with vacuum braking and relied on steam heat. They also tended to be infested with rats and fleas, thanks to their infrequent use. Health hazard is something of an understatement.

BR often used a locomotive which couldn't heat the stock, and it wasn't at all uncommon to find it colder inside the stock than outside, with ice forming on the windows and roof of the stock. Then the locomotive would collapse with water and oil everywhere, and maybe a piston coming through the side of the locomotive, or a traction motor catching fire, because the bogie hadn't been cleaned due to a fitter's strike.

BR did shorten platforms - at the time, they were losing passengers hand over fist, if the railway had insisted on maintaining 250 metre platforms at every station, Beeching would have still been closing railway lines on his death bed, it had to be done at the time.

What has resulted from Beeching and the BR Sprinterisation is a railway with exploding passenger demand, because we can only run short trains in many places, we need to run them much more often, which has been instrumental in driving/creating passenger demand. People will not wait 1 hour for a train, no matter how many coaches it has, they want a 5, 10 or maybe 15 minute wait.

And 98% availability - some fleets do actually manage that level of reliability and more will in the future, with remote monitoring, balanced maintenance, more precise manufacturing tolerances and better depot facilities.
 

MarkRedon

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16 Sep 2015
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Do you want a case for those rose tinted spectacles ?

Right as usual, Mr. Phlopp! I live in France. SNCF is in many ways an admirable organisation but it faces no competition, at any rate on the rails. Its obsessions include extending the TGV network, occasionally to places which simply do not merit it. The secondary mainlines are served by ancient stock – though not quite as bad as your and my recollections of the museum pieces we had to travel on in Britain in the 80s. I love the description by the way. It helps me to remember joining Friday night relief trains from King's Cross to Leeds with no heating, no lighting and compartments which raised fears, particularly for female passengers. It seems to me that the crucial difference between France and the UK is that SNCF continues to believe that running long trains is better than running frequent ones. The first line in France to be dieselised was that from Nantes to Bordeaux. Scroll on a few decades. Each morning the train from Redon, where I live, to Bordeaux wheezes out on its very long journey via Nantes. Do not miss it: it is the only through train of the day. There are normally only three trains per day between the major "metropoles" of Nantes and Bordeaux. In the summer, they may load to 14 coaches. The coaches will be full of famished people because there is no buffet service of any sort. The line itself south from Nantes is seriously underinvested with generally very low line speeds. If you try to book a train online from Rennes to Bordeaux, you really need to be quite adept to force the website to offer you the much lower fare which is available on the direct line. The reservation system will often try to make you travel via Paris on nice expensive TGVs.

Back to Trans-Pennine. Other correspondents are quite correct, I think there is little practical difference between four trains an hour and six in terms of the attractiveness of the service. But that is on the Leeds to Manchester core of the route. Frequent service means that through trains can be offered from places like Middlesbrough, Hull, Liverpool et cetera. Perhaps the putative sixth train could restore through service to Scarborough?

What is abundantly obvious is that the generally very good frequency of service in the UK has made it possible for people to live without cars or without having to use them as often as they would otherwise have to do. Crucially, young people delay buying their first car.

Little and often is no fun for trainspotters and good for people who actually want to use trains.
 

QueensCurve

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This - to my mind is key. This bit can get done. It would enable London- Edinburgh via Leeds. Leeds - Edinburgh and Glasgow etc. Serve as a useful diversionary route for Doncaster -York etc.

Likewise it seems extraordinary that Hambleton South to West has never been wired - diversionary route Doncaster to Leeds.
 

snowball

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Likewise it seems extraordinary that Hambleton South to West has never been wired - diversionary route Doncaster to Leeds.
What would have been the use of wiring Hambleton South to West given that Hambleton West to Neville Hill isn't yet wired?
 

po8crg

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Right as usual, Mr. Phlopp!

Agreed with all of this

Back to Trans-Pennine. Other correspondents are quite correct, I think there is little practical difference between four trains an hour and six in terms of the attractiveness of the service. But that is on the Leeds to Manchester core of the route. Frequent service means that through trains can be offered from places like Middlesbrough, Hull, Liverpool et cetera. Perhaps the putative sixth train could restore through service to Scarborough?

There is still a through-train to Manchester from Scarborough!

The current five are:
Liverpool-Newcastle (via Chat Moss)
Liverpool-Scarborough (via Warrington)
Manchester Airport-York
Manchester Airport-Middlesbrough
Manchester-Hull

Once electrification kicks in, the three diesel services (Scarborough, Hull, and Middlesbrough) will be problems.

I expect that Selby-Hull will get electrified at the same time as NTP electrification, which would allow that route to be electric, which would make it very tempting to route the sixth train as Liverpool-Hull.

I'd be extremely tempted if I were the franchisee to pay for the addition a few hundred yards of electrification at Northallerton and York, and a couple of sidings, and hold a loco in each siding to drag electric trains to Middlesbrough and Scarborough respectively. It would allow a single all-electric fleet, rather than either having a mixed fleet of pure electric and bi-modes or paying for an awful lot of diesel engines (in bi-modes) that never do anything on pure electric routes.

A bit of clever design in the new EMUs would allow the driving cab in the electric train to be used to control a diesel loco in DVT/DBSO-style, removing the need for a run-around at Middlesbrough/Scarborough.

That would mean no longer being able to run Liverpool-Manchester via Warrington, though, and I don't know if reducing that line to an hourly fast service (the EMT Liverpool-Norwich) would be acceptable in Warrington. Dragging along the CLC would probably not be an acceptable option. My inclination, though, would still be an all-electric order in preference to bi-modes, and hang on to enough 185s for the Liverpool-Scarborough service to remain diesel, running under the wires between Manchester and York.
 

MarkRedon

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There is still a through-train to Manchester from Scarborough!

The current five are:
Liverpool-Newcastle (via Chat Moss)
Liverpool-Scarborough (via Warrington)
Manchester Airport-York
Manchester Airport-Middlesbrough
Manchester-Hull

Whoops! Silly me, and thanks for the correction. However, I think I might have become confused because there was for a while a twice hourly service to Scarborough, I think because there was a via-Bradford train that ran through to Scarborough.

On your further suggestions concerning as near all-electric operation as possible, they make complete sense to me. There seems always to have been a reluctance to coupling trains at least north of the Thames. To continue my SNCF reflection: there is no such reluctance in France, where they seem to make these things work - TGVs and TERs couple and uncouple en-route very, very frequently. There is less reluctance in the UK south of the Thames, more north of the Thames. No doubt that has something to do with the very disparate rolling stock used in the North?
 

stockport1

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Does anyone expect, post-tpe-electrification, that some services will be combined particularly Leeds and Victoria terminated services?
 

swt_passenger

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Whoops! Silly me, and thanks for the correction. However, I think I might have become confused because there was for a while a twice hourly service to Scarborough, I think because there was a via-Bradford train that ran through to Scarborough.

It is in a state of flux though, the idea DfT published (in the CP5 illustrative options if people remember it) for the post electrification timetable had TPE's 6 tph in total running 2 tph to Newcastle, 2 tph to York, and 1 tph each to Selby and Hull. Middlesbrough and Scarborough both seemed to be downgraded...
 

snowball

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Roger Ford's email preview is out for his column in the next issue of Modern Railways.

The magazine is now out. One thing mentioned in the full column that I hadn't seen before is that the benefit/cost ratio for TP electrification without route improvement is less than 1, so it's surprising it was ever approved - in contrast to the BCR for MML electrification which is vast, and notoriously greater than that for the GWML.

The column also contains the aphorism "political panic is the mother of investment".
 

Greybeard33

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That would mean no longer being able to run Liverpool-Manchester via Warrington, though, and I don't know if reducing that line to an hourly fast service (the EMT Liverpool-Norwich) would be acceptable in Warrington. Dragging along the CLC would probably not be an acceptable option. My inclination, though, would still be an all-electric order in preference to bi-modes, and hang on to enough 185s for the Liverpool-Scarborough service to remain diesel, running under the wires between Manchester and York.
The TPE service via Warrington Central is going to be replaced by a Northern semi-fast service. As explained in the DfT Stakeholder Briefing Document that accompanied the ITTs:
From December 2017,
TPE’s hourly service that currently operates from Liverpool to Leeds and
beyond via Warrington Central and Manchester Piccadilly will be diverted to
operate via Newton-le-Willows and Manchester Victoria. This will allow TPE
to operate a regular half-hourly service pattern between Liverpool, Leeds
and beyond. It will also avoid the need for TPE trains to weave across the
throat of Manchester Piccadilly station, which in turn frees up capacity for the
package of additional services we are specifying between central and south
Manchester; bringing improvements to Macclesfield, New Mills Newtown and
the mid-Cheshire line.
4.24
This means that from December 2017, Warrington Central and Birchwood
will no longer be served by the current direct TPE services that run to Leeds
and beyond, but Northern will operate a replacement service between
Liverpool Lime Street, Warrington Central and central Manchester. This will
become one of the specified high-quality ‘Northern regional’ routes described
at sections 4.10 and 4.62. Warrington will also benefit from the new Northern
service that is to operate between Chester, Warrington Bank Quay and
central Manchester, which will extend on to Leeds via the Calder Valley. This
service will provide passengers from Warrington with the opportunity of a
direct service to Leeds – from Warrington Bank Quay and via the Calder
Valley – if they prefer to avoid a change of trains in central Manchester.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The magazine is now out. One thing mentioned in the full column that I hadn't seen before is that the benefit/cost ratio for TP electrification without route improvement is less than 1, so it's surprising it was ever approved - in contrast to the BCR for MML electrification which is vast, and notoriously greater than that for the GWML.

But the BCR's are all demonstrated to be nonsense now. ;)
 
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5 Aug 2011
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There is still a through-train to Manchester from Scarborough!

The current five are:
Liverpool-Newcastle (via Chat Moss)
Liverpool-Scarborough (via Warrington)
Manchester Airport-York
Manchester Airport-Middlesbrough
Manchester-Hull

Once electrification kicks in, the three diesel services (Scarborough, Hull, and Middlesbrough) will be problems.

I expect that Selby-Hull will get electrified at the same time as NTP electrification, which would allow that route to be electric, which would make it very tempting to route the sixth train as Liverpool-Hull.

I'd be extremely tempted if I were the franchisee to pay for the addition a few hundred yards of electrification at Northallerton and York, and a couple of sidings, and hold a loco in each siding to drag electric trains to Middlesbrough and Scarborough respectively. It would allow a single all-electric fleet, rather than either having a mixed fleet of pure electric and bi-modes or paying for an awful lot of diesel engines (in bi-modes) that never do anything on pure electric routes.

It is in a state of flux though, the idea DfT published (in the CP5 illustrative options if people remember it) for the post electrification timetable had TPE's 6 tph in total running 2 tph to Newcastle, 2 tph to York, and 1 tph each to Selby and Hull. Middlesbrough and Scarborough both seemed to be downgraded...

Now that Transpennine electrification is back on the agenda and electrification to Hull likely to follow on CP6, then to me it makes sense to also electrify Northallerton to Middlesbrough in CP6 to give a fully electric TPE service of:-

2tph Liverpool to Newcastle
2tph Manchester airport to Middlesbrough
2tph Manchester to Hull

Scarborough should be segued by extending the Blackpool to York which would maintain a through service to Leeds and avoid the need to electrify that line.
 
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GRALISTAIR

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The column also contains the aphorism "political panic is the mother of investment".

Absolute Brilliance Mr Ford

Now that Transpennine electrification is back on the agenda and electrification to Hull likely to follow on CP6, then to me it makes sense to also electrify Northallerton to Middlesbrough in CP6 to give a fully electric TPE service

Agreed
 
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Kettledrum

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Do you want a case for those rose tinted spectacles ?

BR did shorten platforms - at the time, they were losing passengers hand over fist, if the railway had insisted on maintaining 250 metre platforms at every station, Beeching would have still been closing railway lines on his death bed, it had to be done at the time.

What has resulted from Beeching and the BR Sprinterisation is a railway with exploding passenger demand, because we can only run short trains in many places, we need to run them much more often, which has been instrumental in driving/creating passenger demand. People will not wait 1 hour for a train, no matter how many coaches it has, they want a 5, 10 or maybe 15 minute wait.
.

We're in a completely different era now, and the railways need to adapt the service patterns accordingly.

There's nothing wrong with increased frequency and exploding demand. In economic terms it helps create a more flexible workforce, as people can travel to work more easily. More people can be in employment and more economically active, paying more taxes, costing the taxpayer less in benefits etc.

The electrification programmes provide opportunities to reduce running costs. Let's hope the savings are invested in rolling stock with appropriate capacity because too many of the 1, 2 and 3 coach trains are uncomfortably crowded.
 

GRALISTAIR

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The electrification programmes provide opportunities to reduce running costs. Let's hope the savings are invested in rolling stock with appropriate capacity because too many of the 1, 2 and 3 coach trains are uncomfortably crowded.

Agreed - but - you can always start off with a 3 car EMU but build in the ability to add a 4th (TSO?) later for the Sparks effect.
 

ainsworth74

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Seriously? Alloa and The Borders (so far) - haven't they exceeded their BCRs due to more passengers than expected using the lines?

Alloa sure but I think it's perhaps a little early to be drawing any conclusions about whether or not the Borders has exceeded it's targets.
 

WatcherZero

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Theres also a difference between business case BCR's which just measure investment, financial return and possible savings and Wider Economic Impact BCR's which also measure environmental benefits, congestion relief, modal shift, improvement of local economy and access to wider labour markets.

So for example a business case BCR of Transpennine might find it only just makes a return on the investment while it has huge wider economic impacts, the MML on the other hand has a good business case for the infrastructure but not very significant wider economic impacts.

2012 assessment of a 20 minute time saving between Leeds and Manchester is worth £6.7bn to the North as a whole and £2.7bn to the two individual cities
2009 assessment of wider economic impacts of MML electrification £450m
 
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Philip Phlopp

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Seriously? Alloa and The Borders (so far) - haven't they exceeded their BCRs due to more passengers than expected using the lines?

That's the point - whilst it has cost more to undertake works, more people have been using the routes once upgraded. If something costs twice as much as expected and the result is twice as many people than expected are using it, the BCR stays much the same (that's, of course, a vast over simplification, but you get the drift).
 

snowball

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One sentence in this Manchester Evening News item (mainly about closures of Victoria every Sunday until April for Ordsall Chord works) says electrification works between Manchester and Stalybridge will start in February.

As a number of bridges have already been raised over the last 2 year plus, I assume this means piling or foundation works for masts will start.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...victoria-station-closed-every-sunday-10724053
 
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Viscount702

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One sentence in this Manchester Evening News item (mainly about closures of Victoria every Sunday until April for Ordsall Chord works) says electrification works between Manchester and Stalybridge will start in February.

As a number of bridges have already been raised over the last 2 year plus, I assume this means piling or foundation works for masts will start.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...victoria-station-closed-every-sunday-10724053


Although the NR press release says works for electrification the actual work according to the same press release says track and drainage works-- so nothing to do with electrification but perhaps some works under the Hub.
 

deltic08

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One sentence in this Manchester Evening News item (mainly about closures of Victoria every Sunday until April for Ordsall Chord works) says electrification works between Manchester and Stalybridge will start in February.

As a number of bridges have already been raised over the last 2 year plus, I assume this means piling or foundation works for masts will start.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...victoria-station-closed-every-sunday-10724053

What about speed improvement work that electrification was paused for? If electrification work is to begin there aren't going to be any speed improvements between Victoria and Stalybridge.

I thought an attempt would have been made to raise 20mph speed at Miles Platting and 50mph at Ashton.

Just seen the NR Press release. Not electrification.

Last time I was at Victoria the new overall roof was not yet completed. I am disappointed that it wasn't extended a bit to cover more of the two bay platforms. They look rather exposed.
 
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edwin_m

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What about speed improvement work that electrification was paused for? If electrification work is to begin there aren't going to be any speed improvements between Victoria and Stalybridge.

I thought an attempt would have been made to raise 20mph speed at Miles Platting and 50mph at Ashton.

Just seen the NR Press release. Not electrification.

Last time I was at Victoria the new overall roof was not yet completed. I am disappointed that it wasn't extended a bit to cover more of the two bay platforms. They look rather exposed.

Stalybridge is now being treated as a part of the North West not the Transpennine electrification, so was never paused. Reason appears to be that they need a new power feeder to supply other routes and Stalybridge is the best site, and/or it's a convenient place to terminate electric trains entering Victoria from the west that can't be turned round there due to lack of platform capacity.

I seem to remember looking at maps of both Miles Platting and Ashton and deciding it would be very difficult to ease either of these curves. I probably posted to that effect on this forum somewhere...
 

cavie78

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Has work on Transpennine electrification been unpaused or are we still in a state of pause? If the latter, do we have any idea when the pause will be unpaused? Has there even been a pause on the pause? ||
 

lejog

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Has work on Transpennine electrification been unpaused or are we still in a state of pause? If the latter, do we have any idea when the pause will be unpaused? Has there even been a pause on the pause? ||

No there was a pause, a rewind, then an unpause. IIRC we are due to get a preliminary announcement about options for a 30min Manchester to Leeds journey time sometime in the next few months, at least so that whatever is going to be done in CP6 can be planned.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Has work on Transpennine electrification been unpaused or are we still in a state of pause? If the latter, do we have any idea when the pause will be unpaused? Has there even been a pause on the pause?

This is what is supposed to be going on (Hendy Report, Jan 30 delivery milestones update p58):
The scope is to develop to the end of GRIP3 the route wide solution that will provide the expected capacity and journey time improvements as well as complete the electrification of the route from Stalybridge to Leeds and Selby/York. This includes the development of the following:
 signalling headway and infrastructure enhancements between Manchester Victoria, Leeds and York to provide additional capacity to move towards the Indicative Service Specification level of service at the specified performance level
 line speed improvements between Manchester Victoria, Leeds and York to support journey times on inter-regional services that move towards;
̶ Manchester Victoria to Leeds of 40 minutes with 1 stop
̶ Manchester Victoria to York of 62 minutes with 2 stops
 traffic management solutions for the Transpennine Route to provide improvements in performance and operational resilience
 an electrified route to enable the operation of electric traction between the following points:
̶ Stalybridge to Leeds;
̶ Leeds to York; and
̶ Leeds to Selby; and which will include
̶ a new power feeder station east of Leeds to support the electrified route.

So nothing you can hang your hat on. "Move towards" is a form of weasel words I haven't met before.
Grip3 (ie a detailed proposal) is due to be complete by Dec 2017.
 

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