Skipping stops to make up time

GM228 · 22 Oct 2015

Just wondering if there is anything specific on train operators being allowed to alter stopping patterns (i.e omit stops for service recovery etc) under their customer charters, conditions of carriage etc.

More specifically what is there in regulation (EC) No 1371/2007 to deal with such instances?

Also would I be correct in thinking that commuter services are actually exempt from that reg?

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greatkingrat · 22 Oct 2015

I'm not sure exactly what you are getting at, but any train that misses out booked stops will be counted as a PPM failure even if it arrives at the terminus on time. You will also be able to claim compensation if the missed stops causes you to be delayed by 30 minutes or more.

theironroad · 22 Oct 2015

While skipping stops is not ideal, tight turnaround times at the end of a train's journey mean that a delay early in the morning may never be recovered from for the rest of the day. It really is a case of looking at the big picture and considering how all passengers, including those later in the day will be disrupted.

Antman · 22 Oct 2015

theironroad said:
While skipping stops is not ideal, tight turnaround times at the end of a train's journey mean that a delay early in the morning may never be recovered from for the rest of the day. It really is a case of looking at the big picture and considering how all passengers, including those later in the day will be disrupted.

Indeed and so long as the revised stopping arrangements are clearly announced at the start of the journey the benefits outweigh the negatives

Dr_Intoxicated · 22 Oct 2015

greatkingrat said:
I'm not sure exactly what you are getting at, but any train that misses out booked stops will be counted as a PPM failure even if it arrives at the terminus on time. You will also be able to claim compensation if the missed stops causes you to be delayed by 30 minutes or more.

OK so if I can no longer catch that train as it no longer stops at my station and I have to wait 30 or more minutes for the next train I can claim?

How do I prove I wanted to catch the earlier train?

greatkingrat · 22 Oct 2015

You don't need to prove anything. On the form, you just put down the departure time of the train you originally intended to catch, and the actual time you arrived at your destination.

GM228 · 22 Oct 2015

greatkingrat said:
I'm not sure exactly what you are getting at, but any train that misses out booked stops will be counted as a PPM failure even if it arrives at the terminus on time. You will also be able to claim compensation if the missed stops causes you to be delayed by 30 minutes or more.

In other words a stopping train is very late with another right behind it so it's decided to make it an expres to help minimise delays!

Carlisle · 22 Oct 2015

Antman said:
Indeed and so long as the revised stopping arrangements are clearly announced at the start of the journey the benefits outweigh the negatives

That clearly doesn't always happen as I've been on a few Thameslink services that have missed stops like Redhill with the changes only being announced en route not long before the booked stop

JB_B · 22 Oct 2015

GM228 said:
...

Also would I be correct in thinking that commuter services are actually exempt from that reg?

I assume you're referring to article 17 ? I can't see why commuter services would be exempt - what makes you think might be?

As far as I can see, delay repay would be sufficient to meet the carrier's obligations.

Tetchytyke · 22 Oct 2015

GM228 said:
More specifically what is there in regulation (EC) No 1371/2007 to deal with such instances?

Also would I be correct in thinking that commuter services are actually exempt from that reg?

A train that misses some stops for service recovery is treated as any other cancellation, which means that compensation should be available. For most TOCs this is now Delay Repay; so long as your journey is delayed for more than 30 minutes you would usually be eligible for compensation.

PHILIPE · 22 Oct 2015

A little inconvenience now can save a lot more later.

londonbridge · 22 Oct 2015

GM228 said:
Just wondering if there is anything specific on train operators being allowed to alter stopping patterns (i.e omit stops for service recovery etc) under their customer charters, conditions of carriage etc.

More specifically what is there in regulation (EC) No 1371/2007 to deal with such instances?

Also would I be correct in thinking that commuter services are actually exempt from that reg?

As posted in previous/other relevant threads, I used to work in Kingston, finished at 17.30, went round to the station, there was a delayed train due in with the next one a few minutes behind it so they made the first one non-stop to Waterloo and passengers for intermediate stations on the second, I boarded the first one having somehow managed to miss the announcements........

Murph · 22 Oct 2015

JB_B said:
I assume you're referring to article 17 ? I can't see why commuter services would be exempt - what makes you think might be?

There are some metro type services which are permanently exempted from that EU reg. See the DfT's Guidance Note.

backontrack · 22 Oct 2015

I read in the Private Eye a couple of issues ago that EMT skipped Sheffield on a Liverpool-Norwich service...

yorkie · 22 Oct 2015

backontrack said:
I read in the Private Eye a couple of issues ago that EMT skipped Sheffield on a Liverpool-Norwich service...

That's not just skipping a stop; that's a re-routeing. I've known numerous occasions of this, such as XC omitting Leeds. It can save a potentially hefty delay if there is a problem on the usual route.

Westnat · 22 Oct 2015

On Friday 18/09/15 I caught the late running 09.03 Taunton to Penzance FGW HST to Truro. It was about 20 min late from Taunton due to a train fault and we were transferred to a replacement HST at Exeter. We were now running approx 30 mins late, and all the way down through Devon and Cornwall we were regularly given updated arrival times for all stations en route. That is until after we left Bodmin Parkway. Then it was announced over the PA system that Control had decided that after St Austell the train would run non stop to Penzance to allow the return working to leave on time, and all passengers for other stations in Cornwall would have to leave the train at St Austell and catch the following service. I left the train at St Austell, with a very large number of other people, and we all caught the following late running 12.25 service. I eventually arrived in Truro at 12.55 rather than 11.55. I'm wondering how many passengers for other stations in Cornwall didn't hear the announcements.. those wearing headphones etc...
While I can understand why it was done, it was very disruptive for many passengers. Is this normal practise in relation to late running trains in Cornwall?

tocguard · 22 Oct 2015

backontrack said:
I read in the Private Eye a couple of issues ago that EMT skipped Sheffield on a Liverpool-Norwich service...

Happens regularly. Saves around 20 minutes. Passengers to change at Chesterfield for Sheffield in either direction.

cin88 · 22 Oct 2015

I once got a (unknown to me at the time of bording as I assumed it was the train for the time I normally catch it at) very late running local stopping service from Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street. The service ended up being so late (well over an hour) that control put a stop order through that skipped all stops until Warrington central. Once we got to Warrington another stop order came through that let us go straight to Lime Street with no stops. Ended up being the quickest that I ever got to Liverpool by train.

Bald Rick · 22 Oct 2015

backontrack said:
I read in the Private Eye a couple of issues ago that EMT skipped Sheffield on a Liverpool-Norwich service...

Indeed, although ~~Mr Wolmar~~ Dr B Ching rather portrayed it as a way of fiddling the performance figures, which it patently is not, as he well knows.

Iskra · 22 Oct 2015

Northern are quite bad (or good, depending on how it affects you) for this on the Manchester Victoria-Leeds stoppers. They often run them fast from Mirfield onwards to make time back up. I also noticed one had omitted a stop at Walsden recently (may have been this morning actually). Also, I think they re-route severely delayed Calder Valley service via Dewsbury sometimes to avoid further delays by reversing at Bradford.

It isn't so bad on lines with a frequent service and it's one of those where the TOC is in for criticism whatever they do.

gtr driver · 22 Oct 2015

Carlisle said:
That clearly doesn't always happen as I've been on a few Thameslink services that have missed stops like Redhill with the changes only being announced en route not long before the booked stop

That's because things change after departure.

ASharpe · 22 Oct 2015

Iskra said:
Also, I think they re-route severely delayed Calder Valley service via Dewsbury sometimes to avoid further delays by reversing at Bradford.

That would explain quite a few cancelled trains I've wanted at Halifax.

I've also twice been on trains that reversed at Halifax to get to Leeds when they couldn't get through Bradford for whatever reason.

And in my experience South West Trains are much more likely to miss out stops than Northern. I reguarly head announcements about trains running semi-fast from Guildford to Portsmouth and missing out a stop at Clapham Junction.

61653 HTAFC · 22 Oct 2015

Iskra said:
Also, I think they re-route severely delayed Calder Valley service via Dewsbury sometimes to avoid further delays by reversing at Bradford.

Yet apparently the route through Dewsbury is so congested that the Huddersfield stopper is soon to be withdrawn...

The common one I see is TPE Hull or Scarborough services skipping the Dewsbury call. Usually announced at Huddersfield and results in a VERY cosy situation on board the 142 on the stopper!

bramling · 23 Oct 2015

greatkingrat said:
I'm not sure exactly what you are getting at, but any train that misses out booked stops will be counted as a PPM failure even if it arrives at the terminus on time. You will also be able to claim compensation if the missed stops causes you to be delayed by 30 minutes or more.

There must be some performance incentive for TOCs to do it, as I've seen some strange ones at times.

For example, a Charing Cross to Ramsgate via Ashford/Canterbury service, delayed by a few minutes leaving London with signal checks here and there, no more than 7 minutes late by Ashford, where it was announced the train would run non-stop from Canterbury West to Ramsgate. In the end the train got stuck behind something at Minster and virtually came to a stand in the platform anyway. The train wasn't booked a quick turnround at Ramsgate, and the crew clearly weren't in any hurry to go anywhere upon arrival, and could be heard remarking between them how they "didn't see the point of that".

BurtonM · 23 Oct 2015

What's an early reversing (an Hull-Man Pic running extremely late can be stopped at Stalybridge and sent back to Hull) classed as?

gray1404 · 23 Oct 2015

London Midland are always doing this on their Euston to Crewe service. If it is delayed by about 30 minutes then will it have it run non stop between Stafford and Crewe direct via the WCML rather then via Stoke. Train still ends up having quite a dwell time at Crewe before the return leg back to Euston so I think its to massage the stastics.

I notice Merseyrail "sometimes" do this in the event of a late arrival into Southport from Hunts Cross and it has missed its booked departure time back to Hunts Cross. They will have the train run semi fast from Southport calling at (Birkdale), Formby, Waterloo, Sandhills, (Moorfields), Liverpool Central and all stations to Hunts Cross. (Stations in brackets) - it depends on the day, sometimes these are included in the semi fast pattern, sometimes not. Normally the train will get to Waterloo roughtly on time and Sandhills a couple of minutes compared to the time you should have arrived. However, no body bothers overriding the automatic signal system and the train ends up coming to nearly a hault at Blundellsands with a cauton while the level crossing is going down. A bit of human intervention needed.

These sort of practices can be very confusing if you do not know the geography of the area.

Bantamzen · 23 Oct 2015

cin88 said:
I once got a (unknown to me at the time of bording as I assumed it was the train for the time I normally catch it at) very late running local stopping service from Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street. The service ended up being so late (well over an hour) that control put a stop order through that skipped all stops until Warrington central. Once we got to Warrington another stop order came through that let us go straight to Lime Street with no stops. Ended up being the quickest that I ever got to Liverpool by train.

I've seen this happen quite a few times at Warrington C. Northern will turn a late running Liverpool-Manchester into an express to prevent the TPE & EM fasts from tripping over them.

Tetchytyke · 23 Oct 2015

Bald Rick said:
Indeed, although ~~Mr Wolmar~~ Dr B Ching rather portrayed it as a way of fiddling the performance figures, which it patently is not, as he well knows.

Although that train will fail PPM, the trains for the rest of the day won't, so it is a way of massaging performance figures.

Of course it is desirable to have the train depart its next journey on time, and I wouldn't criticise them for doing it, but lets not pretend any TOC that does it is being purely altruistic.

PHILIPE · 23 Oct 2015

Not quite missing stops but similar. An evening LM train from Birmingham to Hereford, which frequently ran late, often terminated Ledbury and turned back from there to put it back on time. However, things came to a head one evening when passengers waiting to get home from a days work, were once again asked to leave the train at Ledbury and wait on the platform with only a small shelter on a cold winter's night for the next train due an hour later. The passengers fed up with this practice, refused to leave the train and in spite of police attending would not budge. The only option was to let the train carry on to Hereford. The TOC never tried this trick again.

Welshman · 23 Oct 2015

In a similar vein, ATW occasionally terminate late-running trains short at Chester, after having sent a different unit in its correct path to complete the journey.

Swings and roundabouts really - good for those starting their journeys at Chester, and for the maintaining of the service for the rest of the day, but annoying if you were anticipating travelling through on the delayed service.

Having a depot on the doorstep facilitates this practice.

Skipping stops to make up time

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