Caledonian Sleeper discussion

47271 · 13 Nov 2015

Even if there's no strike this will help to push the stock maintenance issue into the public and political eye. There's a slight chance that even the opposition in the Scottish Parliament might have something to say about it...

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AngusH · 13 Nov 2015

Oddly, I almost wonder if this may save the sleeper service.

I assume that they weren't able to simply stop the service to get the maintenance right for whatever reason.

But if there is a strike, obviously nothing will run, everyone understands that,
and the maintenance issues can be caught up on.

(Maybe?)

My sympathies certainly lie with the staff though.

Steve childs · 13 Nov 2015

Even if it stopped for a month alstom do not have the knowledge to fix it. That is the problem. No one in their right mind will take that on now after them ruining it. It would take months to fix and tarnish good reputations. Good luck with it and the live wires left hanging in pantrys.

Bungle965 · 13 Nov 2015

Fort William and Inverness portions seemed to have set off on time, hopefully a reliable night tonight.
Sam

Chrism20 · 13 Nov 2015

AngusH said:
Oddly, I almost wonder if this may save the sleeper service.

I assume that they weren't able to simply stop the service to get the maintenance right for whatever reason.

But if there is a strike, obviously nothing will run, everyone understands that,
and the maintenance issues can be caught up on.

(Maybe?)

My sympathies certainly lie with the staff though.

It would work if the strike actually happened and went the distance, however if a deal was reached the service would need to recommence pretty quickly and the sets would have to be serviceable. It's pretty embarrassing if you have to rely on a strike to get the fleet serviceable though and has the potential to damage the brand beyond repair.

It would probably cause the service to be full most nights but would removing two carriages from the Edinburgh, Glasgow and Inverness portions Monday to Thursday be a better move than culling any of the portions for any period of time?

That would give them in theory a full set to work on for a good few days and try and sort all the problems.

scotraildriver · 13 Nov 2015

I wonder how RMT members at Wembley and Polmadie maintenance feel about being slated by their own union............

Bald Rick · 13 Nov 2015

AngusH said:
Oddly, I almost wonder if this may save the sleeper service.

It's more likely to kill it for good.

Eng274 · 13 Nov 2015

I wonder what sort of preparation (if any) Wembley depot had prior to taking over the maintenance of the sleeper coaches from Inverness depot? They were capable of doing light maintenance exams if the days overran and a set couldn't be brought to Inverness in time, as well as minor repairs and a spot of wheel lathe attention.

Resources were never always very good at Wembley when it came to tending to the 4 out of 8 sets they looked after every day, so it doesn't surprise me that the fleet is becoming dilapidated. I doubt this info would ever come to light, but I wonder if Alstom increased their staff complement to manage the maintenance of mark 2/3 coaches properly..? Doesnt sound like it. You'd think the reliability would inherently improve given the 4-fold increase in time spent at the Home Depot for the sleeper fleet in the new franchise.

While the coaches were never as highly polished as it could have been under Inverness depot's remit, the issues that plague it nowadays were usually kept on top of. If a rogue coach had a fire alarm fault it was easier just to knock it out the set than persevere and exasperate the disruption trying to fix it.

What a shame.

Flying Snail · 14 Nov 2015

scotraildriver said:
I wonder how RMT members at Wembley and Polmadie maintenance feel about being slated by their own union............

Are they though?

Certainly the quality of the stock maintenance is being slated but that is different from blaming the maintenance staff.

I worked for a bus company with very poor fleet maintenance but it was not the fault of the mechanics in the depot, they were understaffed, hampered by poor equipment, insufficient training for some tasks and a general culture of bad decision making from the management that made doing their (and our) jobs well impossible.

92002 · 14 Nov 2015

Steve childs said:
Even if it stopped for a month alstom do not have the knowledge to fix it. That is the problem. No one in their right mind will take that on now after them ruining it. It would take months to fix and tarnish good reputations. Good luck with it and the live wires left hanging in pantrys.

Too many short memory lapses here guys. Alstom were doing maintenance on
The Mk2 and Mk3 vehicles for Virgin West Coast, before these new fangled Pendolinos came along. So probably know a great deal about them and will be blaming the previous maintainer on the state they inherited them in.

bunnahabhain · 14 Nov 2015

92002 said:
Too many short memory lapses here guys. Alstom were doing maintenance on
The Mk2 and Mk3 vehicles for Virgin West Coast, before these new fangled Pendolinos came along. So probably know a great deal about them and will be blaming the previous maintainer on the state they inherited them in.

How many staff do you think are left over from a good ten to twelve years ago when loco hauled sets were the norm on the West Coast?

Steve childs · 14 Nov 2015

92002 said:
Too many short memory lapses here guys. Alstom were doing maintenance on
The Mk2 and Mk3 vehicles for Virgin West Coast, before these new fangled Pendolinos came along. So probably know a great deal about them and will be blaming the previous maintainer on the state they inherited them in.

If your a stupid enough to believe it had anything to do with the previous maintainer then go back to school, learn to read and go through the reports and post on here again. Its all very well looking after Mk2 and 3 coaches but these are sle and slep. Every coach has its own MA while the virgin west coast ones were on a 3 phase system. The electrics are completely different between them. Ok they can do brakes and doors no problem. I know people that are on board staff on the sleeper and its never been so bad. No hot water microwaves out of service for weeks and nothing done. I know Wembley is a shambles first hand as I have a dealings with them in the past. What competence training did any Alstom staff get before they took on the contract. I have 100s of stories but I shall keep them to myself as no one goes to their work to deliberately do a bad job. Their hand may well be tied in many areas.

captainbigun · 14 Nov 2015

Steve childs said:
If your a stupid enough to believe it had anything to do with the previous maintainer then go back to school, learn to read and go through the reports and post on here again. Its all very well looking after Mk2 and 3 coaches but these are sle and slep. Every coach has its own MA while the virgin west coast ones were on a 3 phase system. The electrics are completely different between them. Ok they can do brakes and doors no problem. I know people that are on board staff on the sleeper and its never been so bad. No hot water microwaves out of service for weeks and nothing done. I know Wembley is a shambles first hand as I have a dealings with them in the past. What competence training did any Alstom staff get before they took on the contract. I have 100s of stories but I shall keep them to myself as no one goes to their work to deliberately do a bad job. Their hand may well be tied in many areas.

What? They are Mk2/3, same as any other Mk2/3 with different internal config. There's no 3 phase supply on any hauled Mk2/3, no idea where you've got that from. You're confusing with HST which was never maintained at WB or PO.

I'd suggest you look at the facts!

I'd also suggest that Internet fora are not renowned for their factually correct content.

Inspector999 · 14 Nov 2015

It's two or three years since I have direct experience of the sleepers and there were numerous fault issues then. To my mind one of the key problems was that the sets only visited their home depot (Inverness) once or twice a fortnight. Many times faults would be examined and not "for repairs at home depot". If the set had just left Inverness the it would be carrying that fault for nearly two weeks without any hope of rectification. Fort William and Aberdeen have no meaningful maintenance capacity at all and I distinctly recall the faulting of the heating on a carriage as being totally defective - needless to say when it left Aberdeen that night it was still totally defective - "for repairs at home depot". This was the middle of winter, it was snowing and sub zero overnight and the train was fully booked - we had to move people in the middle of the night in Edinburgh.

So two main points: 1) This is nothing new. 2) Wembley (or somewhere else in London) is the only logical place to base the maintenance as the sets will visit their home depot every two days. If the standards at Wembley or anywhere else need to be raised then so be it - it's not impossible, there may be costs and there may be a need for management to focus on the issue but there is absolutely no reason why a properly trains, paid and supported team can't do a good job.

Of course Wembley isn't in Scotland and that presents a political dimension that may not help the resolution of issues.

My personal thoughts only and not those of my former or current employers.

Essexman · 14 Nov 2015

Over the years I've found the standard of maintenance (in areas passengers will notice) to be better on the Night Riviera than the Scottish sleepers. Fewer rattles, problems with heating and hot water. They are the same stock (and I assume similar age) although the Night Riviera does fewer miles. Is the difference just in my experience and if so is there a reason for it?

I sincerely hope that there isn't a strike. Yes the issue must be highlighted but a strike and its resulting loss of income, short & longer term, cannot be good for anyone.

Eng274 · 14 Nov 2015

captainbigun said:
What? They are Mk2/3, same as any other Mk2/3 with different internal config. There's no 3 phase supply on any hauled Mk2/3, no idea where you've got that from. You're confusing with HST which was never maintained at WB or PO.

I'd suggest you look at the facts!

I'd also suggest that Internet fora are not renowned for their factually correct content.

1000V DC ETS supply on mark2 and 3 LHCS stock. HST trailers have 415V AC 3phase supply.

Skimble19 · 14 Nov 2015

Are there any spare MK3 sleepers lying around anymore? They'll probably be in a pretty sorry state but would it perhaps be worth refurbishing a few to standard just to increase the pool available if anything?

ainsworth74 · 14 Nov 2015

Skimble19 said:
Are there any spare MK3 sleepers lying around anymore? They'll probably be in a pretty sorry state but would it perhaps be worth refurbishing a few to standard just to increase the pool available if anything?

There aren't any that could be brought back into service easily. I believe a number have ended up with preserved railways as accommodation but none of those are likely to have turned a wheel in anger (other than perhaps some very low speed shunting) for a very very long time and would require a huge amount of work (and cash) to restore to mainline running condition. If that was even possible.

The rest I believe are either in service or scrapped.

captainbigun · 14 Nov 2015

Eng274 said:
1000V DC ETS supply on mark2 and 3 LHCS stock. HST trailers have 415V AC 3phase supply.

1000V AC or DC. But yes, that's the point.

fgwrich · 14 Nov 2015

ainsworth74 said:
There aren't any that could be brought back into service easily. I believe a number have ended up with preserved railways as accommodation but none of those are likely to have turned a wheel in anger (other than perhaps some very low speed shunting) for a very very long time and would require a huge amount of work (and cash) to restore to mainline running condition. If that was even possible.

The rest I believe are either in service or scrapped.

Let alone there can't be many spare bogies left around either. FGW was lucky in taking a handful of some of the useable stored sleepers (was it one or two?) recently but the majority are now scrapped.

ScotRail I gather did look at replacing the Mk2s a few years back with ex VT Mk3s - the problem with that though is the additional length of a Mk3 would have left it too long for the platforms at Euston. Hence why the Mk2s are still soldering on - and even spares for them are starting to dry up with less available to donate parts these days.

IanXC · 15 Nov 2015

fgwrich said:
Let alone there can't be many spare bogies left around either. FGW was lucky in taking a handful of some of the useable stored sleepers (was it one or two?) recently but the majority are now scrapped.

I think the Night Riviera fleet has been increased by 4 sleeper vehicles and 2 seated vehicles in recent years (although I don't have my records to hand to check). If it wasn't for the GWR sleepers going through refurbishment I would have said (being off season for GWR) we'd possibly see some hired to CS...

Steve childs · 15 Nov 2015

captainbigun said:
What? They are Mk2/3, same as any other Mk2/3 with different internal config. There's no 3 phase supply on any hauled Mk2/3, no idea where you've got that from. You're confusing with HST which was never maintained at WB or PO.

I'd suggest you look at the facts!

I'd also suggest that Internet fora are not renowned for their factually correct content.

Sorry im still young I thought it was HST that were previously on the WCML thanks for the correction. I was talking to a Sleeper member yesterday and they believe its lack of investment over the last 5 years from the previous franchise as there was so much talk of snowballing the whole operation. Another birdie says that the new coaches are a wee bit behind on their build. I wonder what will happen to these coaches when the new ones arrive. Scrapper or the royal Scotsman or converted into network rail use.

najaB · 15 Nov 2015

Steve childs said:
Sorry im still young I thought it was HST that were previously on the WCML thanks for the correction.

Ahem...

Philip Phlopp · 15 Nov 2015

najaB said:
Ahem...

They weren't maintained at WB or PO, which is the important thing here when the competition to trash talk Alstom is in full flow.

najaB · 15 Nov 2015

Philip Phlopp said:
They weren't maintained at WB or PO, which is the important thing here when the competition to trash talk Alstom is in full flow.

I know, but I didn't want Steve childs to think that he was wrong to think that there had been HSTs on the WCML.

jimm · 15 Nov 2015

IanXC said:
I think the Night Riviera fleet has been increased by 4 sleeper vehicles and 2 seated vehicles in recent years (although I don't have my records to hand to check). If it wasn't for the GWR sleepers going through refurbishment I would have said (being off season for GWR) we'd possibly see some hired to CS...

No chance, due to current passenger numbers on the Night Riviera, even if they weren't doing refurbishment work. Even at this time of the year GWR need everything that can run in order to provide a fifth sleeper coach down to Cornwall on Friday nights and back to London on Sundays - the rest of the week there are four sleepers. The intention is to acquire a couple more more sleepers - presumably once the CAF stock starts to arrive in Scotland - in order operate five sleeping cars both ways every night.

ld0595 · 19 Nov 2015

Edinburgh portion seems to be cancelled again tonight. From people on Twitter there was a replacement bus to Carstairs.

marks87 · 19 Nov 2015

I would hope the train was waiting for the passengers and not the other way round.

Carstairs in the cold and dark isn't somewhere I'd want to be...and not just because of the neighbours.

Blindtraveler · 19 Nov 2015

Well thats certainly a step up from an RRB to London. That said Id still be mighty anoyed if I didnt get to bed til gone midnight.

sdrennan · 19 Nov 2015

When are they announcing this to/contacting passengers. Are they contacting them in advance.

When I arrived in Glasgow at 10PM last night there was a "Long" sleeper in platform 11 so this was planned and not a last minute failure

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