ASLEF and RMT agree: no more DOO or DCO

craigybagel · 29 Nov 2015

Would it be possible to discuss the effectiveness of the two unions teaming up together, rather than turn this thread into yet another tedious argument between the Pro and Anti DOO brigade that only sees the same old arguments from the same posters until the mods finally lock the thread?

RailUK Forums

HarleyDavidson · 29 Nov 2015

Well said.

A-driver · 29 Nov 2015

Kite159 said:
Are the RMT still up in arms about the driver pressing the button to open the doors as its unsafe.

Better tell Scotland that with their very unsafe services where the driver operates the train with an onboard member of staff checks/sells tickets without the worry of having to stop every few minutes to walk back to the back to release the doors.

Or better tell Virgin & Cross Country who run trains where the driver opens (and closes in the case of voyagers) the doors.

The unions it seems are still stuck in the past unwilling to change even if change is for the benefit of passengers.

You've arrived late to this thread, clearly not read any of it apart from the title and made your mind up that's it's evil nasty unions causing trouble again. You've then typed away some nonsense which misses all the points which, had you bothered to read the thread, you'd realise have been addressed.

And there are NO benifits of DOO to passengers. DOO or not has no impact on passengers (obviously apart from leaving trains completely unstaffed except for a driver locked away and unable to see what's happening on board), only to the employer. Absolutely none. (And if you say ticket costs will fall then it shows how little a clue you really have).

Now start reading threads before posting such nonsense, especially such opinionated and non-factual wibble.

Kite159 · 29 Nov 2015

A-driver said:
You've arrived late to this thread, clearly not read any of it apart from the title and made your mind up that's it's evil nasty unions causing trouble again. You've then typed away some nonsense which misses all the points which, had you bothered to read the thread, you'd realise have been addressed.

And there are NO benifits of DOO to passengers. DOO or not has no impact on passengers (obviously apart from leaving trains completely unstaffed except for a driver locked away and unable to see what's happening on board), only to the employer. Absolutely none. (And if you say ticket costs will fall then it shows how little a clue you really have).

Now start reading threads before posting such nonsense, especially such opinionated and non-factual wibble.

Did I mention DOO?

No

Did I mention ticket prices falling?

No

Can a guard be all-seeing and see everything happening on board a trio of units making up a 12 car set?

No

Is DOO unsafe?

If it is, then better convert ALL DOO operations to having a guard on board to operate the doors, so all London Underground, Overground, South Eastern Metro, Southern Metro, Chiltern [south of Banbury], Great Western Turbos, Thameslink, Great Northern, Scotrail, Greater Anglia, C2C, and any others, as soon as possible to ban this outdated dangerous system of working. Actually better make that having at least 2 guards on board, one to do the doors & dispatch, the other to be in the passenger areas to be available to the travelling public

ainsworth74 · 29 Nov 2015

I think we've had enough of the DOO discussion, again, on this thread. Same people making the same points over and over and over again. It's somewhat akin to an echo chamber at this point as quite clearly neither side is going to convince the other to change their mind and all that's going to happen is people are going to get worked up and fall out (understandably as this is an incredibly emotive issue on the railway today).

However I think it is worth discussing what this agreement between ASLEF and the RMT might mean practically so, for the time being, this thread will remain open to discuss that topic.

Any discussion of DOO, DCO or anything else to do with door control after this posting is liable for deletion as off-topic so please please don't do it.

Thanks

HarleyDavidson · 29 Nov 2015

And with that post from the moderator, I think I shall be withdrawing from this topic as you know my stance on it.

Starmill · 29 Nov 2015

Give that the Northern franchise ITT mandates DCO, this agreement appears to draw battle lines between the Unions and the Government, but the franchisee (and more importantly it's paying customers) will probably take most of the hardship. In short I can't see how this will end well.

A-driver · 29 Nov 2015

Kite159 said:
Did I mention DOO?

No

Did I mention ticket prices falling?

No

Can a guard be all-seeing and see everything happening on board a trio of units making up a 12 car set?

No

Is DOO unsafe?

If it is, then better convert ALL DOO operations to having a guard on board to operate the doors, so all London Underground, Overground, South Eastern Metro, Southern Metro, Chiltern [south of Banbury], Great Western Turbos, Thameslink, Great Northern, Scotrail, Greater Anglia, C2C, and any others, as soon as possible to ban this outdated dangerous system of working. Actually better make that having at least 2 guards on board, one to do the doors & dispatch, the other to be in the passenger areas to be available to the travelling public

You mentioned drivers controlling the doors as 'benefiting passengers' which I can't see why it makes any difference at all (apart from the safety aspect which is not arguable but factual info proving that far more (I mean almost all so no debatable grey area) wrong side releases or stop short and release doors happen on driver controlling doors (including DOO) trains with such a minor amount happening on guard operated door trains that it's almost unheard of. So in that respect DCO is far more unsafe.

The industry will generally not argue against the fact that a guard is a safer method than a driver cotpntroling doors but it's down to cost.

It goes without saying that the more staff you have, the safer it will be. But over staffing isn't cost effective so dosnt happen. That's not unique to the railways but all industries. Flood the streets with police (I'm talking 2 or 3 police officers on every street in the country) and crime will almost be non existant. But that's too expensive. Having one guard at every set of doors would be the safest way of dispatching any train, but again that's not a realistic aim.

So yes, removing a guard from door operation does definately reduce safety. Factual statistics back that up. And along with the staffing argument, that is where the unions are coming from.

ComUtoR · 29 Nov 2015

ainsworth74 said:
However I think it is worth discussing what this agreement between ASLEF and the RMT might mean practically so, for the time being, this thread will remain open to discuss that topic.

Any discussion of DOO, DCO or anything else to do with door control after this posting is liable for deletion as off-topic so please please don't do it.

Thanks

How is it off topic ? The very crux of the topic is DOO/DCO that is the whole stance of the Unions. Shall we now discuss the benefits and problems of the Unions themselves ? That debate always ends in arguements and is "emotive" so that wil also be pushed off topic.

The practicalities of the "agreement" is that its full of **** and has little to no basis in reality whatsoever. The unions have made their stance against DOO/DCO and the TOC are clearly on the other side of the fence.

Two things will happen. The Unions will sell out or to some extent make a serious compromise or they will stick to their ~~religious zealotry~~ ~~belief~~ viewpoint and there will be stikes and they will outright refuse any new deal where DOO/DCO is introduced. Personally I think ASLEF will simply backstab RMT and take the cash.

Basically it turns into war. Union Vs TOC and the first person to flinch loses. Unless those who ~~believe~~ think that DOO is awesome and will beneift the passenger and are very much anti union will accept that the goverment may step in and **** over employees and passengers alike. Afer all, aren't they already erroding employment rights and any protection that the Union fights for, or make statements to that effect.

87015 · 29 Nov 2015

Should know immently if they mean it - c2c DOO operation is planned to be extended to 12 car operation at the timetable change...

Carlisle · 29 Nov 2015

craigybagel said:
Would it be possible to discuss the effectiveness of the two unions teaming up together, ?

the way they've done it in opposing any change from the traditional guard operation is too extreme, it seems too similar to the old fashioned restrictive practice trade unionism most people have moved on from, if they'd chosen instead to campaign for a suitably qualified second member of staff on trains it would have been a clearer simpler and more effective campaign with the public

Bookd · 29 Nov 2015

Whilst this may have been covered elsewhere, could someone explain why there are 'commercial' and 'non-commercial' guards? My experience on SWT is that some will base themselves in the office on a Desiro, sell tickets, make announcements and do revenue checks as well as controlling the doors, while others stay in the back cab. There seems to be a two tier system.

ComUtoR · 29 Nov 2015

87015 said:
Should know immently if they mean it - c2c DOO operation is planned to be extended to 12 car operation at the timetable change...

If it is already in operation then extending it with a 12 car unit will already have been agreed. That is exactly what happened with the introduction of 12 car units on Southeastern. As well as when Strood got its DOO monitors. Its most likely already covered by agreement.

Extension of DOO means that no new agreements will be made or like ours, the DOO area is not extended further than already agreed.

Keeping it "on topic" the strength of the agreement will certainly be tested. ASLEF were made to look foolish on our TOC.

They have drawn a line in the sand. The union who has the bargaining agreements will be the ones to determine the next course of action. On our TOC there is little to no discussion between them and they often work against each other. In this agreement against ~~DOO/DCO~~ They need each other. ASLEF fights for the Drivers and RMT fights for the Guards. It was mentioned in a previous thread where ASLEF were left off the negotiation table and if DCO was agreeed then it would still need ASLEF to agree so that the Drivers will drive the trains. They really just don't work together.

Gonna be interesting.

hornbyfan99 · 29 Nov 2015

ml said:
Isn't southeastern metro often reported as the worst DOO operation in so far as the atmosphere at unstaffed stations and on unstaffed trains is hostile especially late at night

Personally, I think OPO has been badly installed in the Thames Valley. The Henley branch and Marlow branch stations don't have ticket barriers but have ticket machines. Sometimes the ticket machines fail. This also applies to the other stations in the Thames Valley as well.

Where will you get your ticket from then if you havn't purchased them online?

Ok maybe they have ticket salesmen on the train but sometimes, they don't turn up.

Therefore, I could ride aboard the trains paying nothing.

So don't be suprise if they are running at a loss!

reb0118 · 29 Nov 2015

Kite159 said:
Scotrail

Geographically Scotland is predominately covered by the traditional method of train working i.e. guard & driver. DOO is currently limited to Strathclyde local services (albeit that system now extends to Edinburgh via the A2B route).

HH · 29 Nov 2015

Bookd said:
Whilst this may have been covered elsewhere, could someone explain why there are 'commercial' and 'non-commercial' guards? My experience on SWT is that some will base themselves in the office on a Desiro, sell tickets, make announcements and do revenue checks as well as controlling the doors, while others stay in the back cab. There seems to be a two tier system.

There is. It seems to largely be a historical thing; staff getting away with what they can get away with and managers not giving a toss. Last I knew, Waterloo wasn't a popular depot with other parts of SWT; that goes for drivers too.

superkev · 29 Nov 2015

This doo thing seems create a lot of emotion.
For me it's a matter of size.
Up to say 3 or 4 cars prob ok but 8 plus a lot of train and people to manage by one person.
I wonder if driver operated doors have statistically more accidents?
How are things done elsewhere in Europe?
K

387star · 29 Nov 2015

HH said:
There is. It seems to largely be a historical thing; staff getting away with what they can get away with and managers not giving a toss. Last I knew, Waterloo wasn't a popular depot with other parts of SWT; that goes for drivers too.

South west trains is rare

The only non intercity. Outfit to run a wholly traditional driver and guard operation out of London

Every other non intercity toc ie not virgin trains/emt that runs out of London have certain or all services (mostly metro) DOO including FGW

It is historical.. I think privatization put a stop to it and there was enough trouble with unions when stagecoach took over I recall

I am sure BR would have pressed for SWT metro to be DOO (the red trains)

I guess having frequent stops means the guard has to be by the doors especially if opening. All stations have barriers so no ticket sales are required and they are paid less if non commercial. There was a fire not long ago on a 458/5 outside windsor and eton riverside where the actions of a guard (non commercial) were applauded

Now I might be shot for this but I don't think the guard necessarily needs to open the doors only to close them. In my time as a guard I often found opening the doors a nuisance with passengers blocking the controls and inturrupting a ticket sale.. Yes I know safety comes first just saying.. However there are some stations where I could see it was wise to control the doors for example a five car set as I have had to buzz six to draw forward on occasion

Wolfie · 29 Nov 2015

A-driver said:
At the end of the day, if the unions refuse to agree to DOO then their drivers will not be operating any doors meaning the trains will simply run around without letting people on/off if a guard isn't provided.

If the TUs believe that taxpayers are prepared for ever growing subsidies they are living in gaga land...

bb21 · 29 Nov 2015

ml said:
I guess having frequent stops means the guard has to be by the doors especially if opening. All stations have barriers so no ticket sales are required and they are paid less if non commercial. There was a fire not long ago on a 458/5 outside windsor and eton riverside where the actions of a guard (non commercial) were applauded

SWT suburban stations are quite often not gated.

TEW · 29 Nov 2015

But I expect the majority of passengers have to use ticket gates at either origin or destination.

Bevan Price · 29 Nov 2015

There are some lines (e.g. Merseyrail Electrics) where it would be technically feasible to follow the example of the Docklands Light Railway - driver is a computer. Revenue protection person ("train captain") is only staff member on board.

ANorthernGuard · 29 Nov 2015

If the Unions stand there ground (personally obviously I hope they do) then I cannot see how they can move forward with DCO/DOO. If however ASLEF make a deal then it won't work. ASLEF have been more vocal then i can remember about anti DCO/DOO this time so maybe drivers have realised in other parts of the country what would actually happen. Only time will tell.

Carlisle · 30 Nov 2015

ml said:
I am sure BR would have pressed for SWT metro to be DOO (the red trains)

I think your absolutely right , the major rail unions serious anti DOO campaigns only really got going after they'd realised how relatively easy it had been for them to get Stagecoach to abandon their DOO plan, that issue was probably a far bigger victory for the opponents of DOO than we realised at the time,

the sniper · 30 Nov 2015

HH said:
There is. It seems to largely be a historical thing; staff getting away with what they can get away with and managers not giving a toss. Last I knew, Waterloo wasn't a popular depot with other parts of SWT; that goes for drivers too.

Non commercial Guards, who aren't paid or trained to do commercial duties, are 'getting away with' not doing commercial duties?

ml said:
South west trains is rare

The only non intercity. Outfit to run a wholly traditional driver and guard operation out of London

The only one. Other than London Midland.

Wolfie said:
If the TUs believe that taxpayers are prepared for ever growing subsidies they are living in gaga land...

The subsidies are ever growing?

SpacePhoenix · 30 Nov 2015

If the door control system that LU use (them green boards) was installed, combined with ASDO, could the drivers release the doors, then the guard close them (or signal to the driver when to close them)?

Why aren't all guards trained to do the commercial stuff?

the sniper · 30 Nov 2015

SpacePhoenix said:
Why aren't all guards trained to do the commercial stuff?

Why would you pay someone more to do a duty they normally can't carry out properly?

leonardos84 · 30 Nov 2015

ml said:
South west trains is rare

The only non intercity. Outfit to run a wholly traditional driver and guard operation out of London

Every other non intercity toc ie not virgin trains/emt that runs out of London have certain or all services (mostly metro) DOO including FGW

It is historical.. I think privatization put a stop to it and there was enough trouble with unions when stagecoach took over I recall

I am sure BR would have pressed for SWT metro to be DOO (the red trains)

I guess having frequent stops means the guard has to be by the doors especially if opening. All stations have barriers so no ticket sales are required and they are paid less if non commercial. There was a fire not long ago on a 458/5 outside windsor and eton riverside where the actions of a guard (non commercial) were applauded

Now I might be shot for this but I don't think the guard necessarily needs to open the doors only to close them. In my time as a guard I often found opening the doors a nuisance with passengers blocking the controls and inturrupting a ticket sale.. Yes I know safety comes first just saying.. However there are some stations where I could see it was wise to control the doors for example a five car set as I have had to buzz six to draw forward on occasion

About all stations having barriers and no tickets sales are required....You need to take a ride down the sheppy line.

muz379 · 30 Nov 2015

Carlisle said:
the way they've done it in opposing any change from the traditional guard operation is too extreme, it seems too similar to the old fashioned restrictive practice trade unionism most people have moved on from, if they'd chosen instead to campaign for a suitably qualified second member of staff on trains it would have been a clearer simpler and more effective campaign with the public

Yeah but when trying to negotiate with things like this you always put your absolutely ideal result first and then allow yourself to be negotiated down from there . I personally think that eventually the unions will be negotiated down on this to DCO with an absolute guarantee that no train will run without a second member of revenue and customer care staff on board with safety training for emergencies . But if they stated that from the off they could be negotiated down from that position

ANorthernGuard said:
If the Unions stand there ground (personally obviously I hope they do) then I cannot see how they can move forward with DCO/DOO. If however ASLEF make a deal then it won't work. ASLEF have been more vocal then i can remember about anti DCO/DOO this time so maybe drivers have realised in other parts of the country what would actually happen. Only time will tell.

I think given that it is now actually in the franchise spec up north and has become somewhat of a reality many drivers I have spoken to have actually started to think about the reality of the situation .They do not want to be alone dealing with a unit fault , obstruction , emergency evacuation or any other out of course incident especially not on one of the many late night trains full of drunks that run out of the major towns an cities on a Friday and Saturday night .So at the very least they want a guarantee that there will always be another member of staff on board who can assist in those situations .

pemma · 30 Nov 2015

muz379 said:
I think given that it is now actually in the franchise spec up north and has become somewhat of a reality many drivers I have spoken to have actually started to think about the reality of the situation .They do not want to be alone dealing with a unit fault , obstruction , emergency evacuation or any other out of course incident especially not on one of the many late night trains full of drunks that run out of the major towns an cities on a Friday and Saturday night .So at the very least they want a guarantee that there will always be another member of staff on board who can assist in those situations .

Tony Miles has said he understands at least one Northern bidder have said they'll be a second member of staff on all services and given a guarantee that no service will run with a single member of staff. If that is correct and they win then a number of the union anti-DCO claims will be unfounded.

It almost seems DfT changing DOO for DCO between the Northern consultation and the ITT being released has made no difference to what the unions say as if they think the two are exactly the same. Given the number of posts on here from conductors saying they stay in the rear cab on late services except when opening the doors for their own safety, surely that should be something the RMT should be saying about DCO given the possibility the second member of staff could be barred from staying in the rear cab to provide a more visible staffing presence.

ASLEF and RMT agree: no more DOO or DCO

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