GSM-R Emergency Call

HarleyDavidson · 3 Dec 2015

On a single line, then a Yellow Button call would suffice, however you do have to be careful with that as some single lines intersect mainlines or run parallel to other lines, so consideration should be given to the impact on those.

I know someone who used a REC button on a single line (for trespass) and bought 3 other lines to a grinding halt at the beginning of the AM peak, they were hauled in for a chat with a manager for it.

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sarahj · 3 Dec 2015

Llanigraham said:
Yes you do.
It is a legal requirement.
(and yes I have experienced it, but not on the railway)

Even if the body is in many bits, all you can declare is 'there are no signs of visible life'. It's up to a medical pro to declare anything like 'death'.

As for the red button. A week or so ago a GW train from Redhill to Reading caught fire on the line to Guildford. The red button was pressed. All BML trains near Redhill came to a halt.

455driver · 3 Dec 2015

sarahj said:
As for the red button. A week or so ago a GW train from Redhill to Reading caught fire on the line to Guildford. The red button was pressed. All BML trains near Redhill came to a halt.

As that had the prospect of effecting trains on the other line it was the correct thing to do.

My simple rule is if it only effects my line then its yellow but if there is any chance of it effecting the other line (passengers self evacuating etc) then its a red button job!

A-driver · 3 Dec 2015

HarleyDavidson said:
On a single line, then a Yellow Button call would suffice, however you do have to be careful with that as some single lines intersect mainlines or run parallel to other lines, so consideration should be given to the impact on those.

I know someone who used a REC button on a single line (for trespass) and bought 3 other lines to a grinding halt at the beginning of the AM peak, they were hauled in for a chat with a manager for it.

Well I hope the union were all over that and nothing has gone down on the drivers record. A red button is perfectly justified for trespass. If a yellow call had caused a delay in reporting it and the trespasser had been hit them the drivers would be in serious trouble for not reporting it in the most urgent way.

If the system has a flaw meaning other lines were also brought to a stand then that's a NR issue and if the delays were that problematic then they should look at changing the position of the cells.

I can't see anything whatsoever wrong with the actions of that driver and the managers who brought him in for a chat are going against a national industry wide directive.

GB · 3 Dec 2015

Re yellow button on single lines. You have to be wary of any trains that might be following you (if the single line is set up that way) and could enter the affected area. So I would say in the event of striking someone, no matter where you are, use the red button.

HarleyDavidson · 3 Dec 2015

sarahj said:
Even if the body is in many bits, all you can declare is 'there are no signs of visible life'. It's up to a medical pro to declare anything like 'death'.

As for the red button. A week or so ago a GW train from Redhill to Reading caught fire on the line to Guildford. The red button was pressed. All BML trains near Redhill came to a halt.

Which it didn't need to do, because it was going down towards Guildford and it stopped at Brockham level crossing, so it didn't need to affect the Redhill area at all, nor the Brighton Mainline. So it's yet another case of showing the poor design of the system.

Yes, it needed to stop any train heading up from Guildford towards Redhill, but not things in Reigate or Redhill. because there's signalbox at Reigate and signals protecting the A217 level crossing, so nothing was ever going to follow it in close succession.

MrPIC · 3 Dec 2015

Stopping trains when they are not directly affected is a side effect of the red button, however, better to be safe then sorry. I did hear once that if the red thermonuclear button was pressed at Stratford, it would stop the GE, TM, HS1, NLL and LUL, not sure how true it is but I can only imagine the carnage that would ensue! With this in mind I think most drivers would only go red if it was absolutely necessary.

theageofthetra · 3 Dec 2015

I have now had two occasions where the GSMR has dropped out in the central London area and then after 'searching for network' has logged back on- in one case the searching went on for approx a minute as I was coming into a busy station. Two scenarios-

1) Whilst GSMR is 'searching' someone falls or is pushed off the platform either on my line or the adjacent- if the Red or Yellow button is pressed what happens?
2) After dropping out the GSMR has logged back on but has logged onto completely the wrong box on another TOC- has happened twice now to me. Presumably by hitting Red in the scenario above it would still stop all trains on my line despite being connected incorrectly? If, as has been discussed before, a decision had been made to use Yellow a preventable fatality /injury could occur as there would be a delay in getting the urgent message to the correct box? - I would say its an open and shut case for pressing Red over Yellow following a GSMR signal dropping out and reconnecting? Any thoughts? Feel free to PM if you have real life examples that are not for a public forum.

HarleyDavidson · 3 Dec 2015

Hilsea is a favourite place for it to log on to the wrong box, there's been a few incidences of RECs being routed to Eastleigh about 20 miles away, rather than the correct box of Havant, 6 miles away!

There's a junction where you have to use the phonebook to contact the signaller because the system is so dumb it always connects you to the wrong box and apparently there's nothing they can do to resolve the issue.

theageofthetra · 3 Dec 2015

Harley- in the example you just gave did the REC immediately stop the trains in the place it needed to occur & was there any delay in stopping as a result?

ChrisTheRef · 3 Dec 2015

MrPIC said:
Stopping trains when they are not directly affected is a side effect of the red button, however, better to be safe then sorry. I did hear once that if the red thermonuclear button was pressed at Stratford, it would stop the GE, TM, HS1, NLL and LUL, not sure how true it is but I can only imagine the carnage that would ensue! With this in mind I think most drivers would only go red if it was absolutely necessary.

I can confirm this. I was coming through Bethnal Green on my final exam to qualify as a Driver when it went off!

Further to another post above, I completely agree. Fatality = red. On certain occasions, yellow might suffice, but you couldn't ever be pulled up for pressing red.

HeelBurton · 3 Dec 2015

I think I briefed this on the previous round of company days. Hilsea and Aldershot north used to connect you to the wrong boxes and there was a Issue with Camberley where the signal would drop for a long period of time, the same with Hampton Wick) This was all fed back to those that have the power to sort it out (we collected this information from drivers)
There are booster masts that can be put in. I've seen this about. Hampton Wick on the down received one.
As for the Red Button. Two years ago it was pressed outside of Waterloo for a trespasser (some may remember this, some guy in white shorts a white shirt and bandana ran off platform 14 after calling me a See You Next Tuesday for using an emergency hand signal to stop a train on the up relief. So he ran off platform 14 and down towards south sidings. By the the time I managed to get back to the cab and switch on the radio an emergency call had been made and trains at City Thameslink, battersea park, Cannon Street and imperial Wharf where all over the radio telling the signaller where they were. In the end the signaller abruptly replied "look, if you are not at Waterloo, just keep moving"

A-driver · 4 Dec 2015

HeelBurton said:
I think I briefed this on the previous round of company days. Hilsea and Aldershot north used to connect you to the wrong boxes and there was a Issue with Camberley where the signal would drop for a long period of time, the same with Hampton Wick) This was all fed back to those that have the power to sort it out (we collected this information from drivers)
There are booster masts that can be put in. I've seen this about. Hampton Wick on the down received one.
As for the Red Button. Two years ago it was pressed outside of Waterloo for a trespasser (some may remember this, some guy in white shorts a white shirt and bandana ran off platform 14 after calling me a See You Next Tuesday for using an emergency hand signal to stop a train on the up relief. So he ran off platform 14 and down towards south sidings. By the the time I managed to get back to the cab and switch on the radio an emergency call had been made and trains at City Thameslink, battersea park, Cannon Street and imperial Wharf where all over the radio telling the signaller where they were. In the end the signaller abruptly replied "look, if you are not at Waterloo, just keep moving"

I hope no driver 'not at Waterloo' did start moving again if that's all that was said. The rules are very clear regarding an emergency call-until the signaller formally says 'end of railway emergency group call' no one moves, regardless of location. Had someone misunderstood that and continued moving only to run the trespasser over they would be in very serious trouble.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

theageofthetra said:
I have now had two occasions where the GSMR has dropped out in the central London area and then after 'searching for network' has logged back on- in one case the searching went on for approx a minute as I was coming into a busy station. Two scenarios-

1) Whilst GSMR is 'searching' someone falls or is pushed off the platform either on my line or the adjacent- if the Red or Yellow button is pressed what happens?

2) After dropping out the GSMR has logged back on but has logged onto completely the wrong box on another TOC- has happened twice now to me. Presumably by hitting Red in the scenario above it would still stop all trains on my line despite being connected incorrectly? If, as has been discussed before, a decision had been made to use Yellow a preventable fatality /injury could occur as there would be a delay in getting the urgent message to the correct box? - I would say its an open and shut case for pressing Red over Yellow following a GSMR signal dropping out and reconnecting? Any thoughts? Feel free to PM if you have real life examples that are not for a public forum.

Our instructions re very clear on this. If the GSMR comes up as searching for networks you wait for it to finish and put a test call in. If it connects to the correct panel/box you just ask for it to be reported and carry on normally. If it connects to the wrong box, which keeps happening a lot on the GN route, you stop at the next platform, weather booked there or not, and turf everyone off running ECS until you get through to the correct panel again. You cant run DOO without a fully functioning radio.

NR have (finally) admitted that if your test call teaches the wrong box you won't get an emergency stop/call through to your train. Nor will one you make go through to other trains on your line. In fact, if you connect to the wrong box the correct signaller will have no direct way of contacting you.

HarleyDavidson · 4 Dec 2015

theageofthetra said:
Harley- in the example you just gave did the REC immediately stop the trains in the place it needed to occur & was there any delay in stopping as a result?

I don't know, all I know is that it's not uncommon for it to connect to Eastleigh rather than Havant, that's if you have a network connection at all. I regularly go through there and it comes up with searching networks.

TBSchenker · 4 Dec 2015

I experienced two youths run across the track in front of me (not a near miss), but carried on running along the cess. I brought my train to a stand and pressed the red button - my thoughts at the time being I haven't seen them leave the railway, they are still running about and potentially a train coming the other way would be at risk of hitting them. This was on a right hand bend so oncoming trains would not see my hazard warning in good time.

As it turns out the cell+neighbouring cells broadcast was a major station and mainline, so all trains came to a stand. Caused a bit of disruption!

I was then paranoid I'd get a roasting, especially when more experienced drivers told me they'd only use the yellow button, but I was adamant I did the right thing in the circumstance. Trespassers at risk of being hit needs trains stopped. Using yellow would cause delay stopping trains because the signaller would then either need to ring the other train, or replace signals (if there was one).

I never did hear anything back from it, but I wouldn't hesitate using red again for trespassers if I needed to stop trains.

A-driver · 4 Dec 2015

TBSchenker said:
I experienced two youths run across the track in front of me (not a near miss), but carried on running along the cess. I brought my train to a stand and pressed the red button - my thoughts at the time being I haven't seen them leave the railway, they are still running about and potentially a train coming the other way would be at risk of hitting them. This was on a right hand bend so oncoming trains would not see my hazard warning in good time.

As it turns out the cell+neighbouring cells broadcast was a major station and mainline, so all trains came to a stand. Caused a bit of disruption!

I was then paranoid I'd get a roasting, especially when more experienced drivers told me they'd only use the yellow button, but I was adamant I did the right thing in the circumstance. Trespassers at risk of being hit needs trains stopped. Using yellow would cause delay stopping trains because the signaller would then either need to ring the other train, or replace signals (if there was one).

I never did hear anything back from it, but I wouldn't hesitate using red again for trespassers if I needed to stop trains.

You did everything right. Causing a few delays isn't an issue-it's a bit of disruption, and as driver punctuality and performance isn't something you are paid to worry about. Imagine if you hit the yellow button and a train came round the bend and killed them whilst you were talking to the signaller. You could be in court with a man in a wig asking why you didn't press the red button.

theageofthetra · 5 Dec 2015

I would suggest anyone who is in two minds over pressing REC or yellow for fear of a bit of ribbing or a meeting without tea and biscuits should ask someone who has ever attended a judge led coroners enquiry and had to explain their actions- I have (they were in another industry)& its REC all the way for me if there is a life at risk.

GSM-R Emergency Call

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