Two strikes and you're out....or are you....

RSSB Standards in the Rail Industry - Pub late 2014

This is interesting if you failed an assessment under the 'old' system and are now applying again under the 'new' system:

19. What is the policy for previously failed candidates?
According to the Driver Selection Governance Group, candidates who failed the previous psychometric assessment process should be given the same status as any new applicant and be permitted two attempts at the new selection process. This includes allowing them to attempt the Group Bourdon and TRP again even if they failed on these tests as part of the
previous assessment process.

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Does anyone agree that for the new processes, everyone's scorecard is back to zero again?

Technically yes, but it's still up to each company to decide whether they want to send you up again if you already failed the previous tests.

If you have already been declined twice, would you want a third potential disappointment?

scott118 said:

If you have already been declined twice, would you want a third potential disappointment?

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what have you to lose? That's a ridiculous reply

Class73 said:

what have you to lose? That's a ridiculous reply

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Is it? or is it that they can't accept failure and that they themselves, aren't good enough for the role? Once bitten, twice shy surely..

scott118 said:

Is it? or is it that they can't accept failure and that they themselves, aren't good enough for the role? Once bitten, twice shy surely..

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This is why reading these forums can be inherently dangerous. You put some useful information to support people, who might want to obtain some encouragement, and you are met with unhelpful and unsupportive comments. The previous poster is suggesting to you all, that should you fail twice then by some kind of spurious moral code devised by the poster, that you should NOT have a third attempt at the process- for which reason is hard to fathom. Be careful about unsubstantiated views by people who set out to discourage or undermine your efforts- keep going for it and you will succeed in spite of those who attempt to demoralise you such as the previous comments. What happened to 'at first you don't succeed'. The story of Billy Joel might be encouragement - if he had given up after failing once- he wouldn't be where he was. Forums such as this are here to encourage you- ignore the fools who attempt otherwise for their own self-gratification. Some people feel empathy with those on here who are trying their best, hope the information helps. KEEP GOING.

Class73 said:

This is why reading these forums can be inherently dangerous. You put some useful information to support people, who might want to obtain some encouragement, and you are met with unhelpful and unsupportive comments. The previous poster is suggesting to you all, that should you fail twice then by some kind of spurious moral code devised by the poster, that you should NOT have a third attempt at the process- for which reason is hard to fathom. Be careful about unsubstantiated views by people who set out to discourage or undermine your efforts- keep going for it and you will succeed in spite of those who attempt to demoralise you such as the previous comments. What happened to 'at first you don't succeed'. The story of Billy Joel might be encouragement - if he had given up after failing once- he wouldn't be where he was. Forums such as this are here to encourage you- ignore the fools who attempt otherwise for their own self-gratification. Some people feel empathy with those on here who are trying their best, hope the information helps. KEEP GOING.

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Oh dear.....:roll:

Correct, but it is up to the TOC if they want to overlook this, I have read posts of GTR rejecting people who have failed twice under the old system.

anyone know what the situation is regarding conductor assessments ?

sat online ones for a company a month ago (didnt progress), got to do them for another company in next few days. Do results & attempts transfer across due to it being the same testing company (shl) or is it considered separate due to being a different TOC ?

the 1st one didnt say "failed" just that hadnt progressed, no feedback was given with regards to 'score,' cant help wondering if that has to be given if asked for under data protection ?

The online assessments do not count as a failed attempt, only the full assesments as detailed above run by OPC at a field location such as hotel, etc where you undertake the tasks. You can take as many of the online assessments as you like, but some stipulate a few months between apps.

Before this degenerates further, may I add my opinion?

While technically, as I understand the standards, there is nothing to stop you carrying on applying. However, as all results are logged, the company may decide, as is its right too, that they do not see it as an effective use of resources to progress your application further as there is the high probability that you COULD fail the next test too.

TOCs hate spending more money than they have to. Business and profit. That's the bottom line I'm afraid.

Right, I'll let you get back to the slanging match.

There's no slanging match from most of us, but yes, these forums do contain many dysfunctional characters who get pleasure from that sort of thing!

My final word would be one of encouragement to those who feel deterred and for some reason are assisting in their negativity by many on here.

Officially, you do have two further attempts if you failed in the previous system.

To attempt to read the future and predict that a TOC is going to scrutinise your app to see how many attempts, blah blah is just speculation and should not deter anyone on here from using their max attempts possible.

I don't think it is a business decision at all. In the aviation industry, there are almost no schemes in which training or tests are provided at the company's discretion, so in fact, these TOCs are being pretty generous; at any point they could charge candidates for training, similar to aviation, and there would still be a flood of applications. Taken that they haven't done this, then there must be some fairly reasonable people in there somewhere.

The message is, don't worry about groundless speculation on this site and just keep going for it. Because you fail once or twice, it does not mean that you are not capable of doing the job, and, like all arbitrary selection processes which bear no reality to the day-to-day job in hand, you might well find you get through, whether that is on the first or third attempt it doesn't matter.

321446 said:

Before this degenerates further, may I add my opinion?

While technically, as I understand the standards, there is nothing to stop you carrying on applying. However, as all results are logged, the company may decide, as is its right too, that they do not see it as an effective use of resources to progress your application further as there is the high probability that you COULD fail the next test too.

TOCs hate spending more money than they have to. Business and profit. That's the bottom line I'm afraid.

Right, I'll let you get back to the slanging match.

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Bingo! Couldn't agree more. However should an individual wish to continue to become an irritant to the TOC's, then by all means, carry on applying. Despite the two strike rule, that they all adhere too, they will obviously impress the HR dept, into offering them employment, even though they have already shown that they aren't suitable. Whether that reason be through suitability, age, location or what ever other means the said TOC's, have previously declined them for.
94-96% failure rate upon application. There's no shame in being rejected. Accepting this though, seems to be the hardest objective, for some..

More BS with no evidence- summed up in one word a few posts earlier methinks.....

This has been discussed many times before, nothing new here. But then again these forums do like to go round in circles...

Class73 said:

More BS with no evidence- summed up in one word a few posts earlier methinks.....

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I'll take with me tonight then, when i bring my unit out of the sidings..

What is it that you do within this industry again please?

Hopefully you will have now recognise that i have been through the whole application process prior, and through my own experience, have enjoyed the elated highs of being successful. However i have also witnessed the lows of those who haven't. To actively promote continued applications, does what to/for that said individual? In time they alone, will not wish for the continued rejection, and those themselves, will stop applying. Not everyone is suitable for a said role. Accepting this rejection, cuts deep with some, it seems.

Forums can create an open debate. To be berated for 'challenging' a thread, probably shows ignorance. However it will be myself, that will come across, as conceited, to some, less fortunate.

The tests are designed to weed people out. It has been discussed before about how many goes someone should be allowed to have.

The fact that TOC's will and do scrutinise your application is not "speculation" it is absolute fact.

Capability on doing the job is very different to capability of passing the training and assessment. If it was that easy then surely passing the assessment is kind of a cake walk.

Its a very relative term too. I'm pretty sure I could build a house. Not sure if it would last more than a couple of years before it fell down but I'm "capable" of doing it.

You may call it arbitrary but those who go through it understand why its there. There are also some very clever people out there who know that this test insures that the right people go on to the next step.

Many jobs have some form of entry requirements so its not specific to the rail industry. Should all jobs just accept anybody ?

My message for those who have failed the tests in the old process, have in fact two further attempts and should not give up- this is a simple message.

Some posters, for some reason, could be lack of intellect, spite, or some kind of sadistic enjoyment seem to want to invent information to put others off. You and I can only wonder why this might be so, lack of hobbies or interests, or friends, whatever.

Anyone who believes that HR are sitting at their desks asking themselves 'oooh this is the second time Steve from Barnsley has applied for this job- let's bin him' is, sadly, delusional.

The best people for the job are not necessarily those that pass some arbitrary tests- so my message if you are in that situation is to keep going.

Sadly, the previous poster thinks that driving a train is the peak of intellectual challenge and attempts to berate others who might have failed an arbitrary test and by talking about 'taking a train out of the sidings', in a pathetic attempt to demonstrate superiority. It's just a job at the end of the day, and in an job not known for its intellectual demands, the poster does a disservice to reasonably-minded people in the industry. Just as well , some people have to work alone. You have just as good a chance as anyone else, in spite of having failed a test.

To reiterate, if you have failed in the old process- you still have two attempts. Go for it, don't post too often on here and get swept up in it- don't ask opinions because look what you get- JUST GO FOR IT!

Class73 said:

Some posters, for some reason, could be lack of intellect, spite, or some kind of sadistic enjoyment seem to want to invent information to put others off. You and I can only wonder why this might be so, lack of hobbies or interests, or friends, whatever.

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Please explain what information has been "invented".

Tests like these are too woolly IMO. You can prepare yourself for them (once again IMO), and as such I don't think they quite accurately assess your 'natural cognition' or ability, and peoples abilities do change etc

The tests are of course essential, the jobs are mostly over-subscribed, but I don't think they are, in themselves, enough to prove who could never be a good driver, in the same way they aren't used to build a case (in the direct sense) for who should get the job.

I've said this on the forum and I think I was one of a few to hold this viewpoint, but if the decision was mine, I'd keep the tests but get rid of the 2 strikes rule.

Class73 said:

My message for those who have failed the tests in the old process, have in fact two further attempts and should not give up- this is a simple message.

Some posters, for some reason, could be lack of intellect, spite, or some kind of sadistic enjoyment seem to want to invent information to put others off. You and I can only wonder why this might be so, lack of hobbies or interests, or friends, whatever.

Anyone who believes that HR are sitting at their desks asking themselves 'oooh this is the second time Steve from Barnsley has applied for this job- let's bin him' is, sadly, delusional.

The best people for the job are not necessarily those that pass some arbitrary tests- so my message if you are in that situation is to keep going.

Sadly, the previous poster thinks that driving a train is the peak of intellectual challenge and attempts to berate others who might have failed an arbitrary test and by talking about 'taking a train out of the sidings', in a pathetic attempt to demonstrate superiority. It's just a job at the end of the day, and in an job not known for its intellectual demands, the poster does a disservice to reasonably-minded people in the industry. Just as well , some people have to work alone. You have just as good a chance as anyone else, in spite of having failed a test.

To reiterate, if you have failed in the old process- you still have two attempts. Go for it, don't post too often on here and get swept up in it- don't ask opinions because look what you get- JUST GO FOR IT!

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Brilliant! GO FOR IT...even i managed to succeed.

however i'd be interested in the stats, that show 3rd and 4th applicants succeeding further...

Berate others? Nah, i'm far too conceited for any of that, as you already state, I'm teetering on my brink of intellect, whilst i wallow, and demonstrate superiority, as i clearly struggle to maintain friends or even a hobby, and I'm best placed working alone...

Dakta is correct. The tests bear no reality to day to day operation on the railway.

This is why the view peddled by some on here that if you cannot do the tests you should give up and not keep trying is just wrong.

The best drivers are not those who pass the tests. The tests are simply the best way they think they have of trying to ascertain whether or not someone can be a train driver in an hour or two. It's simplistic and irrelevant at best and wildly arbitrary and pointless at worst. But it's quick and painless for the TOCs.

It is a method of reducing the number of applicants.

The message once again, is that if you fail just keep going and you might be ok on the second, or indeed, third time.

Class73 said:

My message for those who have failed the tests in the old process, have in fact two further attempts and should not give up- this is a simple message.

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I would agree.

Some posters, for some reason, could be lack of intellect, spite, or some kind of sadistic enjoyment seem to want to invent information to put others off. You and I can only wonder why this might be so, lack of hobbies or interests, or friends, whatever.

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Nobody here wants to put people of. What they want it to provide real information for genuine candidates and not to provide false hope.

Anyone who believes that HR are sitting at their desks asking themselves 'oooh this is the second time Steve from Barnsley has applied for this job- let's bin him' is, sadly, delusional.

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A little disclosure may help you. My partner is in one of those fantasy HR departments. It happens on a daily basis. I think that you are under some illusion that application forms are not taken seriously and that the better candidates are put forward first and that others get sent a standard rejection letter. The application process is not simply an application to take a test.

The best people for the job are not necessarily those that pass some arbitrary tests- so my message if you are in that situation is to keep going.

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Why do you believe the tests exist ? I'm very confused why you believe they are arbitrary. Can you explain your reasoning rather than a fallacious statement ?

We are more than happy to discuss the merits of the assessment and there are a few threads which disseminate the topic quite successfully.

Sadly, the previous poster thinks that driving a train is the peak of intellectual challenge and attempts to berate others who might have failed an arbitrary test and by talking about 'taking a train out of the sidings', in a pathetic attempt to demonstrate superiority. It's just a job at the end of the day, and in an job not known for its intellectual demands, the poster does a disservice to reasonably-minded people in the industry. Just as well , some people have to work alone. You have just as good a chance as anyone else, in spite of having failed a test.

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He/she/it is talking from experience. I spoke to a poster on here recently about his recent pass and how he is getting on during training. I suggest that you take some time to speak to those on here who have the experience of going through the tests and may be able to help you where you lacked the right skills and acumen to pass.

Do you really believe that the 'job' is little more than pressing buttons and puling levers ? If it was truly that easy then the assessment must reflect that. It is the second step on the crazily long journey towards a laudable career. What specifically did you find difficult ? Was the test hard ? I'm not sure if the new tests are harder or easier but others on here can provide their experiences.

To reiterate, if you have failed in the old process- you still have two attempts. Go for it, don't post too often on here and get swept up in it- don't ask opinions because look what you get- JUST GO FOR IT!

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Yes absolutely go for it. However; you haven't really posted opinion but more slated the test as nothing more than arbitrary. The opinion is missing.
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scott118 said:

Nah, i'm far too conceited for any of that, as you already state, I'm teetering on my brink of intellect, whilst i wallow, and demonstrate superiority, as i clearly struggle to maintain friends or even a hobby, and I'm best placed working alone...

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Are you a shunter
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Class73 said:

Dakta is correct. The tests bear no reality to day to day operation on the railway.

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How would you know unless you pass ?

The best drivers are not those who pass the tests.

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How do they become Drivers if they haven't passed the tests ? Do you have evidence to show that the "best" didn't take the tests ?

The tests are simply the best way they think they have of trying to ascertain whether or not someone can be a train driver in an hour or two.

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How else should it be done ? If they are the best way then that clearly isn't arbitrary.

It's simplistic and irrelevant at best and wildly arbitrary and pointless at worst. But it's quick and painless for the TOCs.

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Its based on various bits of science.

It is a method of reducing the number of applicants.

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Yep, only the best succeed. Failure is not an option.

The message once again, is that if you fail just keep going and you might be ok on the second, or indeed, third time.

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5th ? 12th ? 50th ? Where do you stop ? After a number of repetitions it is no longer a "test" Candidates should be on equal footing. Does a failed applicant have an advantage over someone taking their first go ? If person A passes first time and person b passes on their 9th. Who is the better candidate ?

What's wrong with shunters? DONT ANSWER THAT!

Ok, i'm not staying on here all day- I don't need to post often, some people post 1000 on here- speaks volumes.

The tests are arbitrary. They bear no relation to railway operations. I am unaware of a number of dots appearing in front of you in a cab during normal operations, for example. They cannot have the tests in a full train cab or mock up and ask you to do paperwork or read railways regs in 90 mins.

I'm unsure when the tests were introduced, if they existed in the 1960s then enlighten me: I think the trains ran ok then.

Plenty of people want to put people off- less competition and all that- but you can't do a survey on that;

HR do not read every application. So you are at the mercy of the chance answers you put.

You'd be surprised how people take forums like this to heart, which are full of a lot of misinformation and speculation and anecdotal evidence with no support- some people seem to make a second career out of posting on here- for those of you who feel weakened by a lot of the nonsense on here, the simple message once again is-

GO FOR IT - if you fail once OR even twice- it means nothing. Be lucky next time!

Class73 said:

I don't think it is a business decision at all. .

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I can assure you it is... my company have recently taken on several graduate drivers, some of whom have not made the grade sadly and have cost the company several hundreds of thousands of pounds. Some have made the cut but as soon as they've been passed out have declared their intention to move to a passenger company as soon as possible. With that in mind, any TOC or FOC has to be very careful who they take on. It might not sound much in the grand scheme of things but in today's railway every penny counts. It is an enormous task to train new drivers from scratch and from the employer's point of view it makes no sense whatsoever to waste time, effort and manpower taking on applicants who have no chance of making the final cut. Some applicants have got in at the second or third attempt in the past and still been found wanting, unable to take on the responsibility of the job or to take in everything that has to be learnt in the classroom and out on the road. Either that or they suddenly realise they cannot work shifts. In the last twelve months a number of graduates have been shown the door after having incidents which they could have avoided.

No doubt this will sound harsh to some, but if someone is not up to scratch then so be it - you can only have so many chances. I've been in the job a long time and have seem many come and go for the reasons I've stated above. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from applying, just trying to inject a bit of realism into the discussion.

Class73 said:

Ok, i'm not staying on here all day- I don't need to post often, some people post 1000 on here- speaks volumes.

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+1 post count.

The tests are arbitrary. They bear no relation to railway operations. I am unaware of a number of dots appearing in front of you in a cab during normal operations, for example. They cannot have the tests in a full train cab or mock up and ask you to do paperwork or read railways regs in 90 mins.

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Your being literal and totally ignorant. The group bourdon test is to measure concentration levels. The tests are based on science. Do you currently drive a uk train ? You have zero facts to state that they bear no relation. Those who didn't fail will attest to that no doubt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychometrics
http://www.crs.dk/function.html
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/10425021_The_Bourdon-Wiersma_test
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot_cancellation_test

I'm unsure when the tests were introduced, if they existed in the 1960s then enlighten me: I think the trains ran ok then.

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No they didn't exist and the trains did not "run well" There is also no relation and no evidence to support your shocking statement that the "best" Drivers didn't take the test. This is not the 1960's standards have improved and rightly so. The test were not introduced to weed of the numbers. They are designed to weed out those potential candidates that are not up to standards.

HR do not read every application. So you are at the mercy of the chance answers you put.

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Really ? Then how do they do it. Each application has to be read to see if they meet the criteria and they have to be read so that the candidate can be contacted. How can you get an invite to assessment without someone having first read your application.

My partner works in said department. I assure you each application has been read and sifted.

I am also quite shocked by your comment about "chance" answers. Do you lie on the application ? Fill out random information ?

GO FOR IT - if you fail once OR even twice- it means nothing. Be lucky next time!

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Please feel free to take the tests. Please rely on "luck" I fully support those who take the tests the permitted number of times. If they mean "nothing" then passing should be easy.

Class73 said:

The tests are arbitrary. They bear no relation to railway operations. I am unaware of a number of dots appearing in front of you in a cab during normal operations, for example. They cannot have the tests in a full train cab or mock up and ask you to do paperwork or read railways regs in 90 mins.

!

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The dot test is to ascertain how accurate a candidate can be with their answers whilst under pressure, it's got nothing to do with what is actually in the driving cab. It's about quick and accurate decision making in the driving cab environment.

- 'the tests are based on science' ; talk about ignorance- this is the most cost-effiective method they can devise- so science is always right is it?- you also have zero facts it bears a relation;

- the best drivers do not necessarily pass- this hardly needs to be explained surely? The people who were best at passing that kind of test were the ones who passed through to the next part....that is all that can be proven;

- trains did not run well? Mallard? Guess the drive of the Mallard passed the group bourdon test prior to that famous run....different operation, granted;

- of course, everyone fills out the application form honestly....

- the tests are arbitrary- that is indisputable- they do not represent railway operations- this is beyond dispute;

Once again guys and girls who were previously discouraged- and it's easy to see how- just attempt the tests- that's what you need to do- if you fail once or even twice- you can still make it - work on facts- not on claptrap- and yep- like everything else in life...luck comes into it.... GOOD LUCK!

Class73 said:

What's wrong with shunters? DONT ANSWER THAT!

Ok, i'm not staying on here all day- I don't need to post often, some people post 1000 on here- speaks volumes.

The tests are arbitrary. They bear no relation to railway operations. I am unaware of a number of dots appearing in front of you in a cab during normal operations, for example. They cannot have the tests in a full train cab or mock up and ask you to do paperwork or read railways regs in 90 mins.

I'm unsure when the tests were introduced, if they existed in the 1960s then enlighten me: I think the trains ran ok then.

Plenty of people want to put people off- less competition and all that- but you can't do a survey on that;

HR do not read every application. So you are at the mercy of the chance answers you put.

You'd be surprised how people take forums like this to heart, which are full of a lot of misinformation and speculation and anecdotal evidence with no support- some people seem to make a second career out of posting on here- for those of you who feel weakened by a lot of the nonsense on here, the simple message once again is-

GO FOR IT - if you fail once OR even twice- it means nothing. Be lucky next time!

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....bonkers.

Class 73, you don't appear to be listening to what those already in the grade are trying to tell you. I'm afraid I'm going to be blunt with you, if I were in my company's HR department and you attended an interview with me in the room, if you came across in person just as you do in your posts I would doubt you'd get through to the second interview. You don't appear to take in other's points of view very well, if at all.

A couple of simple questions for you - exactly how many 'strikes' do you think an applicant should be allowed to have, ad infinitum? At what point can a TOC / FOC say 'enough is enough, we think you're clearly unsuitable for the post and will not entertain any further applications from you'...?