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Gatwick Express Delay Repay

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rmt4ever

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Travelling out from Victoria to Gatwick today.

Had an anytime return open Gatwick Express ticket for the two of us. We arrived just after 2000 to find the 2030 cancelled, next train 2100!! So ended up having to get the 2017 slower stopping service to the airport.

We kept the tickets. Can we claim compensation for this ?

The 2017 train was packed and there was hardly any room for our cases. All rather stressful.

Help gratefully received.
 
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N Levers

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Just to confirm, you arrived at Gatwick before your scheduled train (the 20.30) was meant to?
 

Clip

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Why should you when you arrived 14 minutes earlier than you were scheduled too?

That's not a delay.
 

323235

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You weren't delayed so why would you be entitled to delay repay?

If you had waited til the 2100 Gatwick Express then yes you would have been fine. Perhaps you should aim for the 2000 or equivalent next time if you couldn't risk catching the 2100 and therefore being eligible to claim delay repay.
 

185143

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Would you be able to claim the difference between the Gatwick Express fare and the southern/Thameslink fare?
 

rmt4ever

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Would you be able to claim the difference between the Gatwick Express fare and the southern/Thameslink fare?

That's what I thought. We paid for the premium service and was forced to take the cheaper slower stopping service
 

cjmillsnun

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That's what I thought. We paid for the premium service and was forced to take the cheaper slower stopping service

The cheaper slower service that took precisely 1 minute longer than the GatEx service normally does. The 20:17 is timed to reach GTW in 31 minutes, the 20:30 is timed to reach GTW in 30 minutes.

Perhaps that's a lesson for the future.. Is it worth the premium?

Also IIRC it'll also be a no for the refund of the difference. The ticket you bought was valid on all services.
 
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Clip

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That's what I thought. We paid for the premium service and was forced to take the cheaper slower stopping service

Well depending what time your flight was im not sure you were forced to take the earlier service, if you waited for the 2100 then you would've had a valid claim
 

Bletchleyite

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If you had waited til the 2100 Gatwick Express then yes you would have been fine.

I disagree. There is a reasonable expectation for a passenger to mitigate their losses by not deliberately delaying their journey further. As the ticket is valid on the Southern service, a reasonable expectation is that they would use that. (If unsure of validity they could always ask staff).

If they weren't there in time for the earlier Southern service, the 2032 to Brighton would have had them at Gatwick at 2109, only 7 minutes later than the cancelled train.

So no Delay Repay in my view whatever they actually did, unless they were actively misinformed by staff.
 
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Starmill

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Why should you when you arrived 14 minutes earlier than you were scheduled too?

That's not a delay.

You weren't delayed so why would you be entitled to delay repay?

As has been pointed out, you were not delayed, so Delay Repay does not apply.

Would you be able to claim the difference between the Gatwick Express fare and the southern/Thameslink fare?

Yes!

Your train was cancelled. Therefore Condition 26 (a) applies:

26. Refunds on tickets that have not been used

If you decide not to use a ticket (other than a Season Ticket - see Condition 36) to make all
or part of your intended journey, then:

(a) if the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed or your reservation will not
be honoured, you decide not to travel and at that time you return the unused
ticket to any ticket office, the Train Company responsible for that ticket office will,
wherever possible, give you an immediate full refund as shown in Condition 27

Two things to note: any ticket office and wherever possible. This in practice means that many, many booking offices will refuse to refund a ticket that was not issued at their Window / Office / TOC. Regardless of where you bought it, Victoria ticket office (Govia Thameslink Railway) should have offered you a refund 'wherever possible'. The best advice I have is to politely request the refund explaining you were travelling on a now-cancelled train, and ask for a refund. If you get an excuse, ask if they are familiar with Condition 26. If this doesn't get you anywhere, ask why a refund is not possible and remember - no admin fees apply.

If you receive a refund, you can then purchase a cheaper valid ticket to complete your journey by an alternative service.

If you do not receive a refund, I would purchase my (cheaper) alternative ticket and travel with that, leaving the tickets for the cancelled train unused. I would, as soon as possible, write to the operator of the ticket office and explain what happened, requesting a refund (not vouchers, unless you're personally happy with them, Condition 27 applies). I would also feed back to them why the ticket office told me that it wasn't possible to do the refund in line with Condition 26(a) and ask for clarification on their policy on that.

However, I appreciate that this involves lending money to the train operator, so I can see why you'd be reluctant even though it has a solid outcome that's easy to fight for if they refuse - particularly as you had already paid the much higher fare beforehand!

As you are I would send all of the tickets you used to GTR with a written account of what happened - no Delay Repay forms. You could try to argue that you are due the difference in fares between the train you intended to travel on and the one you caught, but it's not an easy position to defend, even though it's clearly the sensible one. More likely you will receive a 'gesture of goodwill'.

Well depending what time your flight was im not sure you were forced to take the earlier service, if you waited for the 2100 then you would've had a valid claim

I disagree. There is a reasonable expectation for a passenger to mitigate their losses by not deliberately delaying their journey further. As the ticket is valid on the Southern service, a reasonable expectation is that they would use that. (If unsure of validity they could always ask staff).

If they weren't there in time for the earlier Southern service, the 2032 to Brighton would have had them at Gatwick at 2109, only 7 minutes later than the cancelled train.

So no Delay Repay in my view whatever they actually did, unless they were actively misinformed by staff.

Interesting points - not relevant to this particular case and we have already got another thread discussing it without consensus.

My own view boils down to the fact that if the train is cancelled, the TOC has already failed to hold up their end of the bargain, so it'd be a bit rich of them to quiz in response to a claim exactly what happened and why the passenger was late. At the same time it's far from the spirit of the Delay Repay rules to cause yourself inconvenience and then be compensated for it. However, if someone does genuinely do that, then the TOC that caused the initial delay has no case for not paying compensation. Bringing it back to the OP they will not ask or know why you didn't use a Southern service if you put the claim in for half an hour's delay. By far the likeliest outcome is that they will pay it this time, but they may view it as suspicious. However, don't do that, because it's dishonest. What's more there's chance of additional compensation as a goodwill gesture by giving an honest account. Premia work both ways.
 
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Stats

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Your train was cancelled. Therefore Condition 26 (a) applies:



Two things to note: any ticket office and wherever possible. This in practice means that many, many booking offices will refuse to refund a ticket that was not issued at their Window / Office / TOC. Regardless of where you bought it, Victoria ticket office (Govia Thameslink Railway) should have offered you a refund 'wherever possible'. The best advice I have is to politely request the refund explaining you were travelling on a now-cancelled train, and ask for a refund. If you get an excuse, ask if they are familiar with Condition 26. If this doesn't get you anywhere, ask why a refund is not possible and remember - no admin fees apply.

If you receive a refund, you can then purchase a cheaper valid ticket to complete your journey by an alternative service.

If you do not receive a refund, I would purchase my (cheaper) alternative ticket and travel with that, leaving the tickets for the cancelled train unused. I would, as soon as possible, write to the operator of the ticket office and explain what happened, requesting a refund (not vouchers, unless you're personally happy with them, Condition 27 applies). I would also feed back to them why the ticket office told me that it wasn't possible to do the refund in line with Condition 26(a) and ask for clarification on their policy on that.

However, I appreciate that this involves lending money to the train operator, so I can see why you'd be reluctant even though it has a solid outcome that's easy to fight for if they refuse - particularly as you had already paid the much higher fare beforehand!

As you are I would send all of the tickets you used to GTR with a written account of what happened - no Delay Repay forms. You could try to argue that you are due the difference in fares between the train you intended to travel on and the one you caught, but it's not an easy position to defend, even though it's clearly the sensible one. More likely you will receive a 'gesture of goodwill'.
.

Which is all wholly irrelevant. The OP decided to travel so the condition is not invoked and he is not not entitled to a refund. The ticket he used was "Any Permitted" so was valid on the service he travelled on, so no luck there either. He can write to GTR and try to get a goodwill payment, but he is not entitled to anything.
 

gray1404

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Even if there OP had have turned up at the station a couple of minutes before the 2030, only to discover it was cancelled, there were many more services to Gatwick Airport thus meaning he still would not have suffered anywhere near the 30 minute delay required to trigger delay repay.

I do accept though that had he know he'd have been travelling on a non Gatwick Express service then he could have got a cheaper ticket. As he ended up travelling on the Southern service though no fault of his own I would echo the advise given above to contact the tran company explaining what happened as a result of their train being cancelled and request a refund of the difference in fares. Even if they do issue Rail Travel Vouchers, those issued by Southern and Gatwick Express can be exchanged for cash at any of their booking offices so it is not so much of a problem.

I do accept that most rail passengers may not know their rights as fully as some of us on here. Therefore, the idea of getting a refund without admin fee once the train was cancelled and then buying the cheaper ticket may not have entered his mind. On top of that such actions are time comsuming and you may not have had time to do this - moreover given that getting an on the spot refund is difficult at the best of times - with the stress of having discovered you intended train was cancelled, the need to find an alternative service and having to be at Gatwick Airport for a certain time. I would therefore hope that the TOC will be reasonable in considering any such refund request for the difference in fares.

I feel I should add in here that any such request is simply that and the OP has not rights for a such a refund.
 
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Clip

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I would therefore hope that the TOC will be reasonable in considering any such refund request for the difference in fares.

I give up sometimes. They didn't buy a ticket that was only available on GEx services - they bought an anytime which entitles them to travel on any service by any TOC from London terminals. Their intention was to get a GEx service and we can only believe what they say however maybe its one of convenience???
Why on earth should they give any sort of refund because of the difference in fares? You know that's not how it works so I am concerned why you would even entertain the idea
 

bb21

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There is no entitlement to any difference in fares, as the ticket held is an interavailable product valid on all services. I don't see why there is even a debate on this.

In the interest of good customer service, it would be nice if Southern offered the OP something, but given that he arrived at his destination promptly without any real inconvenience, I don't see any valid claim to the difference in fares. Discussions on Conditions 26 and 27 in this case are wholly irrelevant.

The lesson for next time is not to pay the premium for a ticket valid on Gatwick Express services. They are a rip-off and you almost always have other much cheaper options available to you.
 

talldave

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Well depending what time your flight was im not sure you were forced to take the earlier service, if you waited for the 2100 then you would've had a valid claim

Even that approach would have been touch & go as it has been known for a GatEx to arrive a minute early.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The lesson for next time is not to pay the premium for a ticket valid on Gatwick Express services. They are a rip-off and you almost always have other much cheaper options available to you.
By far the best advice. There's a certain smugness to travelling on a GatEx service knowing that you're not being ripped off like everyone else, provided it's not broken down in a cold tunnel or on fire!
 

yorkie

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Travelling out from Victoria to Gatwick today.

Had an anytime return open Gatwick Express ticket for the two of us.
No such thing ;) The ticket you held is routed 'Any Permitted'. All trains on this route are now operated by the same Train Operating Company.
We arrived just after 2000 to find the 2030 cancelled, next train 2100!! So ended up having to get the 2017 slower stopping service to the airport.
Not quite true. The next train was the 2017, which was an express train operated by Govia Thameslink Railway under their Southern branded route, which takes 31 minutes (due 2048). The train after that was the cancelled 2030 slower service operated by Govia Thameslink Railway under their Gatwick Express branded route, which takes 32 minutes (due 2102).

You took the faster, and earlier, train.
We kept the tickets. Can we claim compensation for this ?
No compensation is due for taking the next available express service taking 31 minutes, when you wanted to wait an additional 13 minutes to take a slightly less express service taking 32 minutes, causing you to arrive early.

However....
The 2017 train was packed and there was hardly any room for our cases. All rather stressful.

Help gratefully received.
... a gesture of goodwill may be provided because the cancellation of a train which would have only had approximately 30 passengers across 5 coaches meant you had to take a very busy train, given that you had paid a huge premium to travel on a train which, despite the name, is no more 'express' than other trains on the route. Normally there would be no chance of compensation, but there is a possibility that they might do, though there is no entitlement.

Many people would argue that you could have used a much cheaper ticket anyway (see Govia Thameslink Railway: Issues regarding ticket validity across brands; let's not discuss those issues here!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Your train was cancelled. Therefore Condition 26 (a) applies:
Agreed. An unused ticket could certainly have been eligible for a refund under Condition 26, in these circumstances.
If you receive a refund, you can then purchase a cheaper valid ticket to complete your journey by an alternative service.
True. Once you have the refund, there is nothing stopping you going to a ticket machine and making an alternative purchase.
 

Stats

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Agreed. An unused ticket could certainly have been eligible for a refund under Condition 26, in these circumstances.
.
What utter nonsense. He used the ticket so condition 26 is irrelevant. :roll:
 
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gray1404

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I give up sometimes. They didn't buy a ticket that was only available on GEx services - they bought an anytime which entitles them to travel on any service by any TOC from London terminals. Their intention was to get a GEx service and we can only believe what they say however maybe its one of convenience???
Why on earth should they give any sort of refund because of the difference in fares? You know that's not how it works so I am concerned why you would even entertain the idea

I was trying to show some understanding of their frustration that they'd gone an got an Any Permitted ticket, because they wanted to travel on a Gatwick Express branded service. But then, on discovering their train was cencelled and by taking the next train, they could have got a cheaper ticket as it was a Southern service.

I'll just say again so no one thinks I'm saying anything wrong here that the OP does not have any right to a refund of the difference in fares. This is because they went and used the ticket (we have established above that they could have refuned and rebooked another cheaper fare). Any such request to the TOC is that, a request and would be given as a customer service goodwill gesture (if indeed any offer anything).
 
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bb21

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What utter nonsense. He used the ticket so condition 26 is irrelevant. :roll:

You need to read his post more carefully.

He is not saying the OP's used ticket is eligible under Condition 26.
 

Starmill

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As usual, a lot of posters have misunderstood good advice. hungry is very justifiably less than satisfied because they've paid a more expensive fare which they thought would get them a better experience which failed to materialise. It's no good telling someone they shouldn't have paid more. I've carefully run through the contractual obligations for this and so have others, which looks less than great on this occasion, so I've advised hungry to write to GTR telling them what they told us here, and that they could expect a 'goodwill gesture'. In addition they now know how to deal with it if it happens again.

Good advice for use of Gatwick Express in future is a London Zones 1-6 Travelcard and a single from Boundary Zone 6 to Gatwick Airport, perfectly acceptable on the non-stop service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Which is all wholly irrelevant.

I've put some effort into my post and tried to both explain the situation and give advice.
 
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talldave

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....Good advice for use of Gatwick Express in future is a London Zones 1-6 Travelcard and a single from Boundary Zone 6 to Gatwick Airport, perfectly acceptable on the non-stop service.

Beware if buying an extension to aTravelcard at a ticket office. Insist on the Boundary Zone ticket as some staff will try to sell an East Croydon to Gatwick ticket, which is not valid on the Gatwick Express. Even better, use a TVM which is unbiased!!
 

rmt4ever

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Thanks everyone. I've sent an email to Gatwick Express train company and will let you know what happens :)
 

yorkie

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Thanks everyone. I've sent an email to Gatwick Express train company and will let you know what happens :)
Minor point but that Company no longer exists. In 2008 the service became nothing more than a route brand operated by Southern. The route with that name is now operated by a Company called Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR). So the reply will be from GTR, which is the same Company who operated the faster train you travelled on.

I think you should get a refund of the difference (especially as the more expensive fare shouldn't even exist, and there are many legitimate ways of circumventing it, to do that journey for less), even if you are not contractually entitled to it. Let us know what GTR say.
 

talldave

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Thanks everyone. I've sent an email to Gatwick Express train company and will let you know what happens :)

Don't hold your breath. What's likely to happen is that the delinquent idiots that "reply" to emails will send a response that starts with an apology for taking so long to reply followed by some cut & pasted text about something totally unrelated to what you asked.

After you reply with a WTF style response, they'll escalate it to their second level investigations team and you'll most likely never hear any more unless you phone them.

Dealing with GTR rapidly erodes your will to live.
 

rmt4ever

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Got this reply today:

"Thank you for contacting us on 23rd December in regards to your disrupted journey. Please accept my apologies for the delay in our response.





I was very sorry to learn that you've experienced disruption while travelling with us although I'm pleased to confirm that, for any journey delayed by 30 minutes or more, you can claim compensation through our Delay Repay scheme.

You can pick up a paper claim form at any stations operated by Southern, Thameslink or Great Northern, or you may find it more convenient to use our website where you can apply directly or print off a claim form:

http://www.gatwickexpress.com/en/your-journey/delay-repay/

We monitor the punctuality of our trains closely, and are always looking for ways to improve the level of service we can offer to you although I fully appreciate that this doesn’t alter the difficult journey you’ve had.

I hope that your future journeys are of a higher standard, and I apologise again for any inconvenience we may have caused you.





Kind Regards, "
 

yorkie

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A standard letter which does not address the complaint, and you were not delayed so the Delay Repay stuff isn't applicable.

If you want to pursue this, you could try asking them to address the actual issue, and then refer it to Transport Focus (or you could go straight to TP, I guess) however there is no entitlement for using an overcrowded train instead of what would have been a near-empty train. But, given the dubious ticket practices on this route, it may be the sort of thing Transport Focus might get involved with...
 

rmt4ever

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They wrote to me following me submitting the claim, as they suggested I do so, about a week ago.

They stated that one claim had been accepted and sent a travel voucher for £5 odd. But the other was declined as it was out of time. I thought this was strange as both trips (each passenger) was on the same day !! And if one was accepted the other should be.. I mean we travelled together throughout. So I thought I was owed another fiver-odd.

So I rang up quoting the case ref no. The operator agreed it was strange one claim was accepted and one declined. She sent a message for it to be reviewed. So I am hoping to get another fiver odd voucher.

What a sham of a company !

Please see a thread in the main forum on my recent ordeal with this sham of a train company.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2465924#post2465924
 

rmt4ever

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Still waiting to hear re the other £5 odd they owe me.

It's getting beyond a joke now
 

talldave

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Still waiting to hear re the other £5 odd they owe me.

It's getting beyond a joke now

Don't say I didn't warn you! The problem with GTR is that 95% of their customer services people are delinquent idiots and they're employed by management who really don't give a toss about you or your complaint.
 
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