Scotrail84
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Unprofessional? For showing discretion to someone who couldn't understand how to use a ticket machine? Anything but! Good customer service in my book.
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Merseyrail RPI vs guard
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Unprofessional? For showing discretion to someone who couldn't understand how to use a ticket machine? Anything but! Good customer service in my book.
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gray1404
Established Member
On a recent post here I commented on a concern about the lack of discretion shown by Mersyrail RPIs and another regular member on here described the approach taken on Merseyrail as a "rent a thug" approach. On a TV programme I saw with them one of their RPIs gave incorrect information about why the appeals proceure was there and another said that she ensures "everyone is treated the same." That in its self is now showing discretion. I am therefore glad the guard on this occasion did show such and also felt empowered to interviene.
wellwhatitis
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No. In my experience it happens considerably earlier than that.
Jonfun
Established Member
No, unprofessional for undermining his colleague. I don't agree with decisions some of my colleagues make in the course of their duties relatively frequently, but with the exception of intervening in a situation where they may be compromising safety, that is their decision to make, not mine, so I respect it. Likewise, I am given plenty of allowance for making judgement calls, and using discretion by the company who employ me which I use when appropriate, and would not expect a colleague to try to undermine me in doing so.
I point out again that we weren't there - it could have been undermining and belittling his colleague or it could have been "It's okay, I spoke to her earlier".
He isn't undermining his colleague. He is in charge of the train, therefore if he issues an instruction it should be followed.
I would expect as part of my job for the manager or person in charge to issue me instructions.
If the RPI was being unreasonable (S)he should be put in their place.
Jonfun
Established Member
The Guard's in charge of the train's safety. They're not there to start micromanaging their colleagues, especially on Merseyrail where the Guard is not likely to have a great deal of revenue knowledge or any responsibility for revenue enforcement. As far as I'm concerned, interfering in an RPI carrying out their revenue duties is undermining your colleague.
It is not a Guard's job to "put [anyone] in their place". I know people who have taken that attitude, and they're not liked by their collegues, passengers, or managers and get far more grief and complaints than anyone else.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I did say earlier I didn't have an issue with that, my issue is with posters suggesting that the Guard is there and okay to start treating his colleagues like his slaves.
It is not a Guard's job to "put [anyone] in their place". I know people who have taken that attitude, and they're not liked by their collegues, passengers, or managers and get far more grief and complaints than anyone else.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I did say earlier I didn't have an issue with that, my issue is with posters suggesting that the Guard is there and okay to start treating his colleagues like his slaves.
As the only person who was there, did you get the impressiont that the Guard was undermining the RPI's authority? Did the RPI seem put out/upset by what and how the guard said?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Personally, I'd cut a lot of slack to someone holding a disabled person's railcard. If they have a disability that entitles them to one, they've got a hard time of things as it is.
That might result in a few disabled people being able to fare dodge. This doesn't seem to me to be that big a thing, really.
It's the same as that I don't begrudge disabled people free parking nor free use of station toilets. I'd rather pay for both than have a disability that necessitated the use of those things.
plymothian
Member
Not sure exactly what TOC's policy on Disabled Railcard Holders is, but most I would presume cut the slack especially when using a TVM. However today a lady was arguing with a GWR guard that they didn't have to pre-buy at ticket at all, even if the ticket office was open, and produced a letter from the Inclusion Manager that stated so.
It's not even a matter of cutting slack, if her disability in any way impaired her using the TVM then she has the right to buy on board or at her destination and cannot be issued a Penalty Fare. It's in the rules:
Penalty Fare Rules said:
NRCoC said:
MerseyRail: Making Rail Accessible: Helping Older and Disabled Passengers said:
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That seems a very clear policy, in which case the Guard was absolutely correct to intervene in order to ensure that policy was followed, and the RPI needs some retraining.
Jonfun
Established Member
Did the station where the lady in questioned joined the train have a ticket office? If so, she should have purchased one from there and as such was liable for a penalty fare.
If indeed it was an unstaffed station (most Merseyrail stations have staff in attendance) then based on the fact she held a disabled railcard the RPI should have sold her a ticket or allowed her to purchase one at her destination.
But, though three lefts might make a right, two wrongs don't, and my point regarding staff undermining each others' decisions being unprofessional still stands.
If indeed it was an unstaffed station (most Merseyrail stations have staff in attendance) then based on the fact she held a disabled railcard the RPI should have sold her a ticket or allowed her to purchase one at her destination.
But, though three lefts might make a right, two wrongs don't, and my point regarding staff undermining each others' decisions being unprofessional still stands.
Not if she was disabled, as per MerseyRail's policy for Making Rail Accessible: Helping Older and Disabled Passengers as quoted above.
bunnahabhain
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The rule of thumb with disabled passengers (with or without a railcard) is that they're entitled to the full range of fares including appropriate discount on and off the train, at the beginning or end of their journey. I'm not aware of any TOCs whose conditions of carriage state otherwise.
With the original post I echo lowlevel, I don't interfere with my colleagues duties and if they interfere with mine then they know about it. When I work with RPOs I inform them of any passengers I have authorised to travel with or without tickets/railcards etc, and I always work with the RPO rather than putting my feet up in back. I have duties other than revenue that I perform when I'm in the passenger saloons and the knowledge of who my passengers are is invaluable. Would I intervene if I felt it appropriate, certainly, but I wouldn't make a habit of it.
With the original post I echo lowlevel, I don't interfere with my colleagues duties and if they interfere with mine then they know about it. When I work with RPOs I inform them of any passengers I have authorised to travel with or without tickets/railcards etc, and I always work with the RPO rather than putting my feet up in back. I have duties other than revenue that I perform when I'm in the passenger saloons and the knowledge of who my passengers are is invaluable. Would I intervene if I felt it appropriate, certainly, but I wouldn't make a habit of it.
I would say that closing ranks and supporting your colleagues even when they make obvious mistakes is even more unprofessional.
I don't want to sound callous but I deem to this to be extremely unfair especially for other passengers caught up in this whole malarkey. If she boarded the train within Merseyside she would have been issued with a free travel pass surely?? Also, an earlier poster has talked about vulnerability, I have witnessed a car pulling into Moreton station on a Sunday Evening (half hourly service) and a young teenage girl running from the car and jumping on the train. Revenue were unfortunately in action and issued a penalty notice although she had money and stated she would pay at destination. Okay there is no excuse for not purchasing a ticket before travel, but she was dropped off by adults and was travelling one stop to Meols. It is safer for a young girl to jump the train than hang about at a station some 30 minutes. Revenue were totally disinterested. Even on the short journey a couple of male passengers intervened, telling the RPI that she was only a child and let her pay at destination but to no avail. They even offered to pay for her, nothing ... so where is the difference??
The difference is that the Penalty Fare rules, the NRCoC and MerseyRail's policy all say that disabled people should be able to buy on board without penalty.
Time to open a can of worms...... Isn't this discriminatory?
No. It's specifically anti-discriminatory. Disabled people may not be able to make use of ticket-selling facilities. To then Penalty Fare them as a result would be discriminatory and, to my mind, immoral.
but they cant buy on board ... only at destination ... what if they are travelling to Capenhurst, Little Sutton, Bache etc ... a free ride!!
MerseyRail's policy says they should also be able to buy from a RPI.
yes but not from the Guard .. RPI's don't travel on every train!
Then yes, in the case that a disabled person is travelling to one of the unstaffed stations, they can end up getting a free journey.
I actually googled it after posting, disabled vs non disabled is one of very few things the law allows more favourable treatment for a group against the other.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Only if she was a resident in Merseyside!
I have a Disabled Adult Railcard and I don't have one.
And as has been pointed out, the treatment of Disabled people is laid out, and there was a link provided earlier.
See post #50!
TOCDriver
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Having some experience of the management at Merseyrail, I very much doubt the guard will be disciplined in a case such as this. Quite the contrary
as the father of a teenage girl I would also class her to be vulnerable ..especially at night, and if the payment is offered straight away then to me it isnt evasion.
There was an incident when my daughter was about 12 when a bus driver was insisting on her paying full fare or refusing travel, she was about 20p short and another passenger gave it to her. There is an igo card for proof of age but tbh she hardly even looked 12 let alone 16. Arriva's customer services gave her about 1/2 dozen day passes after complaining, and agreed that in no way should he have refused travel.
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