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Travelled on the next available train (after cancellation) but being charged.

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Prodigy

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Hi guys, I am asking this on behalf of my Mum's friend, who travelled to Newcastle with some friends.

They bought a ticket to go to Newcastle from Manchester via thetrainline. When they got there the train that they booked on was cancelled. They were told to get on the next train. The guard said it wasn't for that train and wanted to charge them 50£ and they refused. He reported them and now they are not being helped and are now told it's being 83£ and it will keep going up. The trainline keeps hanging up on them when they ring for advice.

Where do they stand on this? IF they paid for their ticket already and were specifically told to travel on the next train after the one they should have been on was cancelled, then surely they were not liable to pay ?
 
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najaB

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Who exactly told them to travel on the next train? Do you know which TOC they were booked to travel with, what tickets they had, and which TOC they actually travelled with?
 

yorkie

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I'd like to help, but more information is needed.

When was this? What train was booked? What train was caught?

Were they delayed, and if so did they submit a Delay Repay claim?

It has nothing to do with Thetrainline.
 

gray1404

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If you provide the additional information requsted above that would be really helpful.

However, in general, if you are travelling on an Advance ticket and your service is cancelled then you are entitled to travel on the next service. This is however subject to keeping to the route restriction on the ticket.* So if the route on the ticket was, TPE Only then you would have to travel on the next service ran by TPE. There is no requirment for a passenger to get their ticket endorsed contary to what some misinformed rail staff might say either.

(* unless of course you have missed the last connection of the day by that TOC, in which case, you would more then likely be allowed to travel on whichever TOC can still get you to your destination or, if that is not possible, a taxi be arranged.)

There are other issues at play here, such as who was it who gave permission to travel. However, if the ticket held was a Manchester to Newcastle then it for an Advance it could only have been AP TPE & CONNECT or AP TPE ONLY and I cannot think, unless your friend was being really crative, which other TOC she could have got onto (or being told to get onto) other then TPE out of Manchester.

Shall await further information from you. Also, just to echo the advise above, this has nothing to do with Thetrainline. They should be advising you to contact the train company concerned directly.
 
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Starmill

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Did they buy new tickets in the end? Did they perhaps recive something like an 'Unpaid Fares Notice'?
 

SouthDevonian

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It shouldn't be down to passengers who are unfamiliar with the weird ways that the railways operate nowadays to get some satisfaction from unpleasant situations like this (it's no wonder so many old people refuse to use the railways because they regard the ticketing & restrictions as too complicated and worry about the consequences when things go wrong as in this case).

With regard to this particular case, I'm not sure they will have much success in dealing with the front line staff. Instead, after listing as much detail as possible, I would raise it on three fronts: first with the Rail Regulator (probably best to phone & discuss before writing); second - write to the Daily Mail; third - go & see the local MP.
 

najaB

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With regard to this particular case, I'm not sure they will have much success in dealing with the front line staff. Instead, after listing as much detail as possible, I would raise it on three fronts: first with the Rail Regulator (probably best to phone & discuss before writing); second - write to the Daily Mail; third - go & see the local MP.
I love how some people are ready to head to the Daily Mail and MP before the facts of the case are even known. :roll:
 

snail

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It shouldn't be down to passengers who are unfamiliar with the weird ways that the railways operate nowadays to get some satisfaction from unpleasant situations like this (it's no wonder so many old people refuse to use the railways because they regard the ticketing & restrictions as too complicated and worry about the consequences when things go wrong as in this case).
Yes, most sensible people ask for clarification of the facts before jumping to conclusions.
 

cjmillsnun

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Hi guys, I am asking this on behalf of my Mum's friend, who travelled to Newcastle with some friends.

They bought a ticket to go to Newcastle from Manchester via thetrainline. When they got there the train that they booked on was cancelled. They were told to get on the next train. The guard said it wasn't for that train and wanted to charge them 50£ and they refused. He reported them and now they are not being helped and are now told it's being 83£ and it will keep going up. The trainline keeps hanging up on them when they ring for advice.

Where do they stand on this? IF they paid for their ticket already and were specifically told to travel on the next train after the one they should have been on was cancelled, then surely they were not liable to pay ?

IF they were on an advance ticket, AND their train was cancelled, then this rule applies.

If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or delayed by more than 60 minutes, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed)..If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or delayed and if, as a result you decide not to travel, a refund will be offered on completely unused tickets and you will not be charged an administration fee.

However, there may be conditions as to the train that you can board (same TOC unless special arrangements are in place at the time of travel).
 

Prodigy

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"We were booked with trainline , the woman gave me details for the train we caught which was a different company I think virgin , but the woman forgot to notify Virgin so we were charged we had return tickets and and I can't remember the times specifically now but we had direct tickets originally to Newcastle and but had to go to Leeds then on to Newcastle ! Hope that enough info ! Thank you so much Maria xxx"

"Trainline originally and it's possible I can't remember the train was red if that's any clue haha sorry xx
Cross country it was !
We travelled from Manchester Victoria
Transpennine express and the problem was on the Leeds to Newcastle one CXx"

I've just posted the quote directly from what my Mum's friend told her. Unfortunately this is the only info I can get for now. As I'm just trying to help them out as best as I can. So I assume they were originally booked to go direct to Newcastle via TPE, which was cancelled. So they had to go to Leeds and change their and get on a Cross Country train. Looking at gray1404's post about TPE Only trains I assume this may have been the issue, boarding a XC train they weren't supposed to do.

I assume that they were not informed properly of what they needed to do and in a stressful situation they didn't think. The woman who is asking for my help works in a School and I assume she wouldn't want anything bad against her name in terms of a criminal record anything.

From browsing these forums before I assume what she has received is a PF Notice. Is the best thing to do to write to them operator who issued this and try and settle before it goes any further?

I'll try and get more info when possible.

Thanks.
 

yorkie

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"We were booked with trainline , the woman gave me details for the train we caught which was a different company I think virgin , but the woman forgot to notify Virgin so we were charged we had return tickets and and I can't remember the times specifically now but we had direct tickets originally to Newcastle and but had to go to Leeds then on to Newcastle ! Hope that enough info ! Thank you so much Maria xxx"
No, not enough information.

Do they still have the tickets? If not, do they still have the email confirmation? Failing all that, details of the tickets should be in their account on the booking website.

What trains exactly were caught, what conversations took place? What advice was given?

If the information is not forthcoming this thread is a waste of time.

We need to know much more information to give proper advice.
The woman who is asking for my help works in a School and I assume she wouldn't want anything bad against her name in terms of a criminal record anything.
Presumably a TA or Receptionist or something like that? (presumably not a teacher). I don't think that she's going to get sacked from such a job because of a fares matter!
 

najaB

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I'll try and get more info when possible.

Thanks.
Please do. In order to give you useful advice, as a minimum we would need to know: what train they were booked to travel on, what ticket(s) did they hold, what train they actually boarded and who told them that they could board it.

The first two can be found on the booking confirmation if booked online, and if bought at the station on the tickets and any reservation coupons (if they still have them).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The information you've provided so far is enough to get a pretty good idea of what happened but I don't want to make any assumptions.
 

SouthDevonian

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If forum members with all their knowledge of ticketing have problems with sorting this out, even in hindsight, what chance do irregular travellers have when things go wrong and have to rely on local staff to give them real-time guidance?

Incidentally, some of you seem to have missed my comment 'listing as much detail as possible' in communications. Whilst there was criticism of my suggestion, I haven't seen any alternatives proposed. Should the problem just be ignored then?
 

najaB

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If forum members with all their knowledge of ticketing have problems with sorting this out, even in hindsight, what chance do irregular travellers have when things go wrong and have to rely on local staff to give them real-time guidance?
How are we supposed to 'figure it out' when we don't know what train the the passengers were supposed to be on and what train they actually caught - there are some good guys and gals here but none, that I know of, are psychic.
Incidentally, some of you seem to have missed my comment 'listing as much detail as possible' in communications. Whilst there was criticism of my suggestion, I haven't seen any alternatives proposed. Should the problem just be ignored then?
You, on the other hand, seem to be graced with an abundance of such skills as you have already determined that (a) the OP's mum and friends were in the right; (b) that they won't be able to get it sorted through the TOC's customer service; and (c) that they need to go to the Press to get any satisfaction.

I don't suppose you have Tuesday's Euromillions numbers as well?
 

Llanigraham

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If forum members with all their knowledge of ticketing have problems with sorting this out, even in hindsight, what chance do irregular travellers have when things go wrong and have to rely on local staff to give them real-time guidance?

Incidentally, some of you seem to have missed my comment 'listing as much detail as possible' in communications. Whilst there was criticism of my suggestion, I haven't seen any alternatives proposed. Should the problem just be ignored then?

Do you know EXACTLY which trains they caught? Perhaps you would like to inform us so that people here can give an ACCURATE response.

I think plenty of people have been asking for "as much information as possible". In fact it is quite a common comment on here on lots of threads.

Perhaps you would like to tell us why you consider yourself to be such an expert on the complicated ticketing rules? Do you work in a ticket office? :roll::roll:
 

gray1404

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I am going to wait for the additional information to be provided here. I don't want to say that they should not have boared the XC until we know exactly what trains were involved (as it could have been a TPE and Connections ticket even if it was inital booking on a direct service) and who instructed them to do what. Sometimes front line staff can give advise to customers without first checking what the ticket restructions are. i.e. assuming that all customers hold walk ups.
 
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Prodigy

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Thank you all, I'll try and get all of the information I can. I appreciate your patience.
 

222007

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If i might add a point here. It is highly likely that if the OP friends were reported that the original tickets would have been withdrawn and a zero fare ticket issued. It would be more likely that the confirmation email if they still have it would provide more answers of which train and ticket type they held and therefor a more accurate response can be offered.
 
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AlterEgo

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Surprisingly, nobody has picked up the following from the Advance Fares terms and conditions:

If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

There is no requirement in the TnCs to stick to the same company.
 

najaB

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Surprisingly, nobody has picked up the following from the Advance Fares terms and conditions:

If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

There is no requirement in the TnCs to stick to the same company.
A ticket that is limited to TOC A isn't valid on TOC B's services so they aren't 'available' for purpose of the T&Cs.
 

AlterEgo

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A ticket that is limited to TOC A isn't valid on TOC B's services so they aren't 'available' for purpose of the T&Cs.

Yes, you and I know that, and the Advance Fares FAQ says that, but that isn't what the terms and conditions say.

It baldly says the "next available train".

The new ticket, or UFN, or whatever they were given, is therefore unenforceable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would raise it on three fronts: first with the Rail Regulator (probably best to phone & discuss before writing); second - write to the Daily Mail; third - go & see the local MP.

Naive at best.

The Office of Rail and Road (Railways) does not have a role in resolving complaints. They are an industry market and safety regulator. They will not want to hear from you.

The Daily Mail gets a laugh because it's the Daily Mail.

The MP route is the most sensible of the three, as long as your MP is a good one!
 

najaB

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Yes, you and I know that, and the Advance Fares FAQ says that, but that isn't what the terms and conditions say.

It baldly says the "next available train".

The new ticket, or UFN, or whatever they were given, is therefore unenforceable.
With respect, you are wrong. It specifically says the next available train for a reason.
 

Bletchleyite

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With respect, you are wrong. It specifically says the next available train for a reason.

Available doesn't mean "on which your ticket would otherwise be valid". It logically refers to "on which there is space and it's not full and standing".

If the T&Cs are wrong, they need to be changed. My view is certainly that they are wrong, and I would be interested to see a Court's view on this.
 

AlterEgo

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With respect, you are wrong. It specifically says the next available train for a reason.

The reason is not clear to the ordinary person. It is clear only to you or I who know the intention of the rule.

Why then, does it not say "you may take the next available train operated by the same company to complete your journey"?

I know of at least one train company who declined to pursue someone in exactly these circumstances for exactly this reason!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If the T&Cs are wrong, they need to be changed. My view is certainly that they are wrong, and I would be interested to see a Court's view on this.

They're worded differently to the Advance Fares FAQ - of course, NRE, and the TnCs as sold are the overriding authority. Travel should be allowed, until they correct the gap between the two.
 

najaB

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If the T&Cs are wrong, they need to be changed. My view is certainly that they are wrong, and I would be interested to see a Court's view on this.
They are not wrong. The wording is very specific in use of 'next available' and one train being cancelled/delayed doesn't magically transform a TOC-only ticket into an any-TOC one. The same T&Cs you are referring to state:
Tickets may only be used on the services of the Train Company (or geographic route where applicable) shown next to ‘Route’ on the ticket.
That is why ticket acceptance has to be put into place when there is severe disruption.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I know of at least one train company who declined to pursue someone in exactly these circumstances for exactly this reason!
This proves precisely nothing. There is no obligation on a TOC to pursue someone regardless of the ticketing irregularity that has occurred.
 

AlterEgo

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They are not wrong. The wording is very specific in use of 'next available' and one train being cancelled/delayed doesn't magically transform a TOC-only ticket into an any-TOC one.

The wording is not specific, "available" has a number of definitions in this context and the fact we are here arguing the toss about it shows that it is not clear.

Specific wording would be "you may take the next available train of the same company to complete your journey".

The same T&Cs you are referring to state: Tickets may only be used on the services of the Train Company (or geographic route where applicable) shown next to ‘Route’ on the ticket.

That is why ticket acceptance has to be put into place when there is severe disruption.

I agree it contradicts the statement "you can take the next available train". The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 neatly sorts this out, in favour of the customer, not the train company.

This proves precisely nothing. There is no obligation on a TOC to pursue someone regardless of the ticketing irregularity that has occurred.

It doesn't prove anything, other than the TOC involved no longer wished to pursue the customer solely on the basis of a challenge to the unclear wording of the TnCs...
 

najaB

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The wording is not specific, "available" has a number of definitions in this context and the fact we are here arguing the toss about it shows that it is not clear.
Again, with respect, it does not.
I agree it contradicts the statement "you can take the next available train". The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 neatly sorts this out, in favour of the customer, not the train company.
There is no contradiction. The ticket is only valid on the services of the train company named in the route field. There is nothing in the subsequent terms that changes that fact.
It doesn't prove anything, other than the TOC involved no longer wished to pursue the customer solely on the basis of a challenge to the unclear wording of the TnCs...
Unless you work for the prosecutions department of the TOC concerned, you don't know if that was the only reason they decided not to proceed.

Edit: In any case, the term you are quoting doesn't apply as the train the OP's mum intended to travel on was cancelled, they were not delayed en-route. The term you should be referring to is:
If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or is delayed and you still decide to travel, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed).
Note this does not make reference to the 'next available train'.
 
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AlterEgo

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Unless you work for the prosecutions department of the TOC concerned, you don't know if that was the only reason they decided not to proceed.

;)

I handled the MP's letter that came in about it which specifically challenged the prosecutions team. The team dropped pursuit of the case and resolved not to pursue further customers in these circumstances. I do not know if they contacted NRE or ATOC to change the wording of the terms and conditions - I suspect they didn't. This was in 2014.

We will have to agree to disagree about how clear or otherwise the terms and conditions are.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In any case, the term you are quoting doesn't apply as the train the OP's mum intended to travel on was cancelled, they were not delayed en-route. The term you should be referring to is:

If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or is delayed and you still decide to travel, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed).

Note this does not make reference to the 'next available train'.

Yep, yet another contradiction, nicely spotted. Funny, it took you a second look to find this one, and I missed it entirely until you mentioned it! That's three contradictions in one set of Terms and Conditions. (this one is, bizarrely, in the Refunds section, where it ought not to be as it has nothing to do with getting a refund...)

Earlier in the same conditions it says you may take the next available train, not that special arrangements will be made!

What a mess. Unenforceable guff, even though you and I might know deep down what the intention of the rule and its application is.

A court would have a field day with this. It is not clear at all what you should do or what you are entitled to do if you get delayed while travelling.
 
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