TPE franchise awarded to First

thealexweb · 18 Dec 2015

Senex said:
A 350 appears to be about 6 minutes slower than a 390 between Preston and Carlisle and about 5 minutes slower between Carlisle and Edinburgh -- quite a significant amount.

Between Carlisle and Edinburgh TPE nearly always call at Lockerbie, VTWC never does. The resultant breaking, dwell time and accelerating could easily account for most of the five minutes.

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pemma · 18 Dec 2015

thealexweb said:
Between Carlisle and Edinburgh TPE nearly always call at Lockerbie, VTWC never does. The resultant breaking, dwell time and accelerating could easily account for most of the five minutes.

TPE services are slower between stations now than when Manchester to Scotland was operated by Voyagers. However, TPE don't have trains sitting at stations like Preston for 10 minutes like Virgin did.

po8crg · 18 Dec 2015

345s don't have a 1/3-2/3 door layout

61653 HTAFC · 18 Dec 2015

po8crg said:
345s don't have a 1/3-2/3 door layout

Quite. It isn't technically so, but I guess it'd be described as 1/4, 1/2, 3/4.
One of the common moans about 185s is the location of 1st class, personally I think it's the least worst it could be... But, with new build stock it shouldn't be impossible (Bombardier offers Aventra in a variety of configurations, as shown with the 345s versus the LO order) to come up with a better layout.

Senex · 19 Dec 2015

thealexweb said:
Between Carlisle and Edinburgh TPE nearly always call at Lockerbie, VTWC never does. The resultant breaking, dwell time and accelerating could easily account for most of the five minutes.

I was referring to net running times for the section, not timetabled times with stops.

Starmill · 19 Dec 2015

Virgin Trains actually do serve Lockerbie - albeit just twice a day in each direction.

Class 170101 · 19 Dec 2015

superkev said:
I can't help thinking the 185's with there 750hp engines big windows and wide foors would be ideal on the S and C.
K

These trains are too heavy for the S&C so there will be journey time penalties on this route.

Philip Phlopp · 19 Dec 2015

Class 170101 said:
These trains are too heavy for the S&C so there will be journey time penalties on this route.

It's 60mph for all but some freight wagons, isn't it ?

Class 170101 · 19 Dec 2015

Philip Phlopp said:
It's 60mph for all but some freight wagons, isn't it ?

I understand there are Sprinter Differentials on the line which 185s are not allowed to use.

Senex · 19 Dec 2015

Class 170101 said:
I understand there are Sprinter Differentials on the line which 185s are not allowed to use.

I can't see any Sprinter differentials in the Sectional Appendix -- just a couple of places where there is a lower limit than line-limit for freight trains conveying two-axle vehicles with a wheelbase of less than ten feet.

tbtc · 19 Dec 2015

Arctic Troll said:
Arguing about whether something is a "commuter" train or an "intercity" is probably pointless, as everyone has a different definition. I'd say a train with air-conditioning, first class, tables and a 110mph top speed goes far beyond what you'd expect from a "commuter" train.

The only nod to "commuter" traffic is the door layout, which was deliberately specified on the 185s to help with dwell times on the Leeds-Manchester and Lancaster-Manchester core

Agreed; the arguments about what makes "Outer Suburban" / "Commuter" trains is has been done to death.

Some trains perform different roles over a journey and various journeys over a day, so the idea of building units to one "category" is fanciful. The modern railway doesn't have the kind of spare capacity to waste on such things. Look at the muddle caused by the 460s.

Trying to categorise things as being "commuter" or "intercity" is a waste of time - I appreciate that some people feel the need to pigeonhole everything and see the world in black/white, but reality is a lot more complicated.

Class 170101 said:
These trains are too heavy for the S&C so there will be journey time penalties on this route.

The three coach 185s are too heavy for the S&C (a route that long coal trains run on)?

Sprinter differentials matter on some routes but everything on the S&C is going to be stuck at 75mph max trundling along between the freight paths.

Plenty of 100mph trains are going to be stuck on "slow" services by the end of the decade (since all post-privatisation DMUs are 100mph+ but routes run by Pacers get nowhere neat that - line speeds on many "provincial" routes are fairly slow - but lots of 170s will be freed up by electrification) so the idea of 100mph 185s stuck on the relatively sedate S&C will be far from unique.

LNW-GW Joint · 19 Dec 2015

tbtc said:
Sprinter differentials matter on some routes but everything on the S&C is going to be stuck at 75mph max trundling along between the freight paths.

Nothing faster than 60mph north of Skipton on Leeds-Carlisle.
185s would not gain significantly on 15x times.

superkev · 19 Dec 2015

LNW-GW Joint said:
Nothing faster than 60mph north of Skipton on Leeds-Carlisle.
185s would not gain significantly on 15x times.

I've always thought the S and C more trans pennine than some of the other's.
Diddnt I read somewhere there was a plan to increase the blanket speed limit which was imposed before much of the track was upgraded.
K

po8crg · 20 Dec 2015

Standstill period is over. Are we likely to start seeing rolling stock announcements on Monday?

Class 170101 · 20 Dec 2015

Is the standstill period not ten working days? If so no announcements this side of Christmas?
(NB Question also asked on Northern Thread)

Ianno87 · 20 Dec 2015

jcollins said:
TPE services are slower between stations now than when Manchester to Scotland was operated by Voyagers. However, TPE don't have trains sitting at stations like Preston for 10 minutes like Virgin did.

Ah yes, in latter VT days the standard northbound Manchester Piccadillly departure time was xx.58. This was pathed behind the xx.00 Victoria-Clitheroe after Salford Crescent.

Except for the days when the MP signaller put the VT through first, resulting in a 12 minute stand at Bolton to wait its xx.24 departure!

pemma · 20 Dec 2015

Class 170101 said:
Is the standstill period not ten working days? If so no announcements this side of Christmas?
(NB Question also asked on Northern Thread)

I've posted this in the Northern thread as well:

Apparently it's tomorrow but further announcements on new rolling stock aren't expected until next year. Although, it's rumoured North TPE stock will be Hitachi AT300s and Scottish TPE stock will be the CAF product First proposed in their West Coast bid for Birmingham-Scotland. Tony Miles has suggested Arriva could buy from CAF as well as they are currently desperate for work to be able to keep factories open and workers in employment so would offer reduced priced options.

Philip Phlopp · 20 Dec 2015

jcollins said:
I've posted this in the Northern thread as well:

Apparently it's tomorrow but further announcements on new rolling stock aren't expected until next year. Although, it's rumoured North TPE stock will be Hitachi AT300s and Scottish TPE stock will be the CAF product First proposed in their West Coast bid for Birmingham-Scotland. Tony Miles has suggested Arriva could buy from CAF as well as they are currently desperate for work to be able to keep factories open and workers in employment so would offer reduced priced options.

It seems to be much the same rumours doing the rounds wherever you hear it, CAF stock, effectively a GB version of the NI Class 4000 for Northern - MTU engine setup, ZF mechanical gearbox, and Hitachi AT300 units, including some bi-mode units, for North TransPennine, making use of some of First Group's options with Hitachi.

The only possible deviation I've heard would be Alstom Pendolino units for the northern WCML services - Alstom are offering delivery dates and guaranteed acceptance that CAF couldn't hope to come close to offering.

pemma · 20 Dec 2015

Philip Phlopp said:
It seems to be much the same rumours doing the rounds wherever you hear it, CAF stock, effectively a GB version of the NI Class 4000 for Northern - MTU engine setup, ZF mechanical gearbox, and Hitachi AT300 units, including some bi-mode units, for North TransPennine, making use of some of First Group's options with Hitachi.

I've just noticed CAF have added information and mock ups about a UK version of their Civity on their website, so I've started a thread on the CAF UK Civity here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=124576

LNW-GW Joint · 20 Dec 2015

Philip Phlopp said:
The only possible deviation I've heard would be Alstom Pendolino units for the northern WCML services - Alstom are offering delivery dates and guaranteed acceptance that CAF couldn't hope to come close to offering.

CAF don't appear to have a tilting EMU.
Talgo do of course, but that would not work in the UK as it would need to integrate with Alstom TASS, and the stock is articulated.

Stats · 20 Dec 2015

jcollins said:
I've just noticed CAF have added information and mock ups about a UK version of their Civity on their website, so I've started a thread on the CAF UK Civity here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=124576

It's been on the CAF website for months, and was discussed in the Northern/TPE ITT thread.

jayah · 22 Dec 2015

sprinterguy said:
Good grief, the franchise award was announced less than an hour and a half ago and already people are complaining about the lack of capacity on new trains that won't be in service for 2 or maybe 3 years? I think there's a few "glass half empty" types posting on here...

Sadly many of us have seen it all before. The Voyagers won't have enough seats in the peak periods leaving our major cities we said. The contrary arguments were unconvincing - more frequency where it wasnt needed and sadly we were proved right. Fifteen years having grown weary of the misery on that particular franchise, it is depressing to see the same mistakes made time and again.

While VXC were ordering their new trains, ATN as it was had 3/4 car 158s on what is today TPE, today we have 3 car 185s on TPE north even in the high peak, replete with First Class, extra doors and full PRM standards, in fact barely more Standard seats than a 2 car 158.

A 125mph unit will come with much of the above, as well as nose safety zones, so in reality a similar number of seats to a 5 car Voyager, again nowhere near enough even for basic weekend demand.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Senex said:
I don't think it's us longer-distance leisure travellers -- or the longer-distance business travellers -- who have asked for tube-style frequencies. I suspect many of us would be happy with a train an hour and delighted with two trains an hour. The tube frequencies come from the absurd rolling stock prescribed for the route offering totally inadequate capacity, so frequency is being used to make up for too short a train.
I still think that two services are needed, one a local service between Manchester and Leeds catering for local traffic including the commuters (who enjoy every bit as much of a discount as most of the leisure travellers), and one a proper express inter-city service like the new Liverpool to Newcastle (and later Edinburgh) service, though perhaps dropping one or two more of the stops.

Quite right - I don't think long distance travellers of these distances have asked for tube style frequencies and in any case Advance tickets negate any benefit from this. It seems to be politically motivated and ignorant of the impact on punctuality followed by inevitable eye watering demands for new signalling and infrastructure when it goes wrong. If it were run like a business revenue per train/seat mile but we have a disease in this country of running more and more 'wagonload' passenger trains everywhere.

NotATrainspott · 23 Dec 2015

jayah said:
Sadly many of us have seen it all before. The Voyagers won't have enough seats in the peak periods leaving our major cities we said. The contrary arguments were unconvincing - more frequency where it wasnt needed and sadly we were proved right. Fifteen years having grown weary of the misery on that particular franchise, it is depressing to see the same mistakes made time and again.

While VXC were ordering their new trains, ATN as it was had 3/4 car 158s on what is today TPE, today we have 3 car 185s on TPE north even in the high peak, replete with First Class, extra doors and full PRM standards, in fact barely more Standard seats than a 2 car 158.

A 125mph unit will come with much of the above, as well as nose safety zones, so in reality a similar number of seats to a 5 car Voyager, again nowhere near enough even for basic weekend demand.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Quite right - I don't think long distance travellers of these distances have asked for tube style frequencies and in any case Advance tickets negate any benefit from this. It seems to be politically motivated and ignorant of the impact on punctuality followed by inevitable eye watering demands for new signalling and infrastructure when it goes wrong. If it were run like a business revenue per train/seat mile but we have a disease in this country of running more and more 'wagonload' passenger trains everywhere.

Electrification of the Manchester-Leeds-York line will be done by 2023 or so, which is only going to be a few years after the introduction of the new bi-mode trains on the route. Since there would be plenty of demand for these bi-mode trains elsewhere on the network, replacing them with an electric train more suitable for TransPennine Express duties should be a reasonably simple matter. The train manufacturers have all come out with ideas for 125mph-capable commuter trains which would be a perfect fit for the line. Imagine an electric 8 car Class 185 with aerodynamic cabs for 125mph running and you're pretty much there.

gimmea50anyday · 23 Dec 2015

NotATrainspott said:
. Imagine an electric 8 car Class 185 with aerodynamic cabs for 125mph running and you're pretty much there.

Will this include a decent catering service point and not the reliance on a lukewarm trolley that cannot be topped up with water? Or is that too sensible?

Senex · 23 Dec 2015

NotATrainspott said:
The train manufacturers have all come out with ideas for 125mph-capable commuter trains which would be a perfect fit for the line.

Why should the design (and specification) of a train for the whole TPE network, including long-distance routes like Manchester-Scotland and Liverpool-Leeds-Edinburgh, be dependent just on the needs of commuters on the Manchester-Leeds section using the trains in periods of probably no more than two hours twice a day?

sprinterguy · 23 Dec 2015

jayah said:
Sadly many of us have seen it all before. The Voyagers won't have enough seats in the peak periods leaving our major cities we said. The contrary arguments were unconvincing - more frequency where it wasnt needed and sadly we were proved right. Fifteen years having grown weary of the misery on that particular franchise, it is depressing to see the same mistakes made time and again.

While VXC were ordering their new trains, ATN as it was had 3/4 car 158s on what is today TPE, today we have 3 car 185s on TPE north even in the high peak, replete with First Class, extra doors and full PRM standards, in fact barely more Standard seats than a 2 car 158.

By 2020, Transpennine Express will have seen delivery of its' second brand new train fleet inside of fifteen years - that is quite unprecedented. Plus, do you realise that the number of carriages operated by TPE will have more than doubled compared to what was operating twenty years previously? Granted, the North West - Scotland service has been added since, but the North West services, which weren't part of the Northern Spirit TPE operation, will have been chopped out by that point.

I've already made the argument, but a 5-car Hitachi AT-300 will have a capacity comparable to that of a 6-car class 185 formation, of which there are currently few. A 5-car Desiro Verve may well be similar. With every train operating with the equivalent capacity of a 6-car class 185, and at an enhanced frequency of six trains per hour (hopefully there will be the opportunity to double up the two semi-fast services per hour that are retaining 185s at peak times), this represents a DRAMATIC increase in capacity.

This is nothing like the Voyager situation, where 4 and 5 carriage trains with poor capacity replaced a fleet of 7 carriage ones. With TPE, we are getting both longer trains AND the frequency enhancement.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

NotATrainspott said:
Electrification of the Manchester-Leeds-York line will be done by 2023 or so, which is only going to be a few years after the introduction of the new bi-mode trains on the route. Since there would be plenty of demand for these bi-mode trains elsewhere on the network, replacing them with an electric train more suitable for TransPennine Express duties should be a reasonably simple matter. The train manufacturers have all come out with ideas for 125mph-capable commuter trains which would be a perfect fit for the line.

Good grief, are we calling for a third brand new Transpennine fleet within twenty years?

hock: I'm fairly confident that bi-mode units are being ordered for Transpennine North so that they can make use of the wires as they go up.

pemma · 23 Dec 2015

sprinterguy said:
By 2020, Transpennine Express will have seen delivery of its' second brand new train fleet inside of fifteen years - that is quite unprecedented.

185s will be used alongside the new trains, TPE aren't withdrawing all their 185s.

Not really unprecedented. In the past we've seen new Sprinters introduced in Cornwall a few years after the new Pacers were introduced, new 156s replacing 155s in the Midlands, 185s replacing 175s on Manchester Airport to North West routes, 222s replacing 170s on Hull to London services etc.

sprinterguy · 23 Dec 2015

jcollins said:
185s will be used alongside the new trains, TPE aren't withdrawing all their 185s.

That doesn't detract from the fact that a large number of brand new trains are being procured, which will replace a fair proportion of the current fleet of 185s/350s.

jcollins said:
Not really unprecedented. In the past we've seen new Sprinters introduced in Cornwall a few years after the new Pacers were introduced, new 156s replacing 155s in the Midlands, 185s replacing 175s on Manchester Airport to North West routes, 222s replacing 170s on Hull to London services etc.

Okay, fair enough. Certainly two of those were similar in that they were accounting for growth (170s to 222s and 175s to 185s). The other two were more as a result of unsuitability of stock, although BR did also have a rolling programme during the introduction of Sprinter services where a number of regional services went from 150 to 156 to 158 in a period of around five years. Not as unusual as I thought, then, though still welcome.

MidlandMainlie · 23 Dec 2015

NotATrainspott said:
Electrification of the Manchester-Leeds-York line will be done by 2023 or so, which is only going to be a few years after the introduction of the new bi-mode trains on the route. Since there would be plenty of demand for these bi-mode trains elsewhere on the network, replacing them with an electric train more suitable for TransPennine Express duties should be a reasonably simple matter. The train manufacturers have all come out with ideas for 125mph-capable commuter trains which would be a perfect fit for the line. Imagine an electric 8 car Class 185 with aerodynamic cabs for 125mph running and you're pretty much there.

There is still going to be the unnelectrified branches to Hull, Scarbrough and Middlesbrough, with only Hull possibly scheduled for electrification within CP6 so a new bi-mode fleet will still be needed for transpennine north unless some or all of those branches are electrified in late CP6/early CP7.

pemma · 23 Dec 2015

sprinterguy said:
That doesn't detract from the fact that a large number of brand new trains are being procured, which will replace a fair proportion of the current fleet of 185s/350s.

Okay, fair enough. Certainly two of those were similar in that they were accounting for growth (170s to 222s and 175s to 185s). The other two were more as a result of unsuitability of stock, although BR did also have a rolling programme during the introduction of Sprinter services where a number of regional services went from 150 to 156 to 158 in a period of around five years. Not as unusual as I thought, then, though still welcome.

Well BR introducing 75mph 150s on regional services and later introducing 90mph 158s and cascading the 150s to local services isn't really all that different to TPE introducing 350s and planning to replace them with new longer, faster Intercity style trains.

TPE franchise awarded to First

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