Liverpool to Norwich - Direct Services

sprinterguy · 22 Dec 2015

lordbusiness said:
Don't remember a Nrw/Liv service in days of yore, only a Nrw/BNS which was CL 31 plus Mk1's. Or if you were really unlucky a CL 101/105.

There certainly was one following sprinterisation, although it wasn't clockface, and at the extremes of the route it ran from and to a range of different origins and destinations such as Barrow and Blackpool at the east end and Ipswich in the west, rather than just Liverpool and Norwich.

The service grew out of the longstanding Harwich boat trains to/from Manchester, which in its' latter days, operating as "The European" through from Glasgow, was class 47 hauled.

RailUK Forums

class26 · 22 Dec 2015

grumblingalong said:
Given MML electrification, could Meridians make an appearance on the route? Or would loading gauges be too restrictive? My knowledge of the meridians and the route outside Anglia aren't great....

Would provide the catering and extra capacity?

Very unlikely as 222`s would be very speed restricted east of Peterborough unless track upgrading is carried out.This has been discussed at length on other threads

LNW-GW Joint · 22 Dec 2015

Anybody regularly using the EMT Norwich-Liverpool service north of Nottingham will know it is currently one of the best services in the region.
This is since the 158s were doubled up to 4-car regularly and refurbished.
Being an inter-regional service it is a bit of an orphan in each area it operates in, much like XC services.
TPE plies the route west of Sheffield with newer trains, but single 185s (with a 1st class section) are very short of space compared to 4-car 158s.
The 158s are very competent regional express trains until we get something newer - don't knock 'em!
The DfT has evidently considered splitting the service at Nottingham and transferring Nottingham-Liverpool to Northern/TPE, but then backed off.
They also had the chance to change things east of Peterborough in the East Anglia competition but again decided not to.
The next possibility of change will be the new East Midlands bidding round in 2017 - we shall see what the DfT and the bidders dream up.
TPE's redundant 185s (after getting their new trains) with need to go somewhere on routes passing through south Manchester (to continue maintenance at Ardwick).
If you think EMT puts the dregs of its fleet on the Norwich-Liverpool, just have a trip on the Crewe-Derby service.

Chapeltom · 22 Dec 2015

Used to commute 4 days between Chinley and Liverpool on the 158s, and found them to be very good. Good leg-room, almost always got a seat. About 30% of the time between Manchester and Chinley on the 1638/1738 I had to stand but for a 30 minute journey I wasn't complaining at all.

It's a good route, good trains and I miss the commute. The EMT 158s are power-sockets away from being a very very good unit and they look newer than 20 odd years old.

Bletchleyite · 22 Dec 2015

Chapeltom said:
It's a good route, good trains and I miss the commute. The EMT 158s are power-sockets away from being a very very good unit and they look newer than 20 odd years old.

Get yourself a large capacity external battery pack and that will no longer worry you. They are very keenly priced these days, and barely any more inconvenient than carrying a charger round.

6Gman · 22 Dec 2015

jcollins said:
A long distance service should have enough seats for everyone doing more than a short hop plus space for luggage, it shouldn't be an either/or.

In an ideal world yes, but we don't live in an ideal world.

EMT has a fixed number of units which means extra seats mean less luggage space, and vv

dquebec · 22 Dec 2015

I want to make clear that the service is operationally ran very well, and I am sure 4 coaches west of Nottingham are required. However, I travel around 4 times a week east of Nottingham towards Ely/Cambridge, and 2 coaches towards Norwich can be excessive. I'm sure some peak trains are busy, but off peak, midweek, when I travel most, a single Class 153 would be cosy, but sufficient between Nottingham and Ely.

If the 222 trains are freed up by electrification, if the route was diverted to Cambridge, it is my understanding that the speed restrictions wouldn't be particularly problematic, perhaps faster, especially if they could use 125mph on the ECML between Grantham and Peterborough.

Thanks for all the responses though! I was wondering whether any government announcements/franchise agreements etc had mentioned this route, but appears not!

As for the 158 trains - I suppose it is down to personal preference. I find them cramped and claustrophobic with bare facilities. I'd take one of EMT's excellent 156 fleet over a 158!

This is how it looks when I travel:

Sheffield - Nottingham = 4 coaches = 70% full
Nottingham - Grantham = 2 coaches = 60% full
Grantham - Peterborough = 2 coaches = 30% full
Peterborough - Ely = 2 coaches = 60% full, if it stops at March, it can get 80% full for one stop.
Ely - Norwich = 2 coaches = 50% full (based on what I see boarding/alighting).

louis97 · 22 Dec 2015

jcollins said:
On Grand National Day in the past Liverpool-Norwich services have been split at Nottingham, with 7 car Meridians running Liverpool-Nottingham with SDO being used at some stations like Liverpool South Parkway. However, in more recent years (since EMT got 4 x 156s from Northern) the greater availability of Sprinters has meant the Meridian working hasn't happened.

A 7 car Meridian has been used every year for at least the last 3 or 4 years for the Grand National, so since EMT have got the extra Class 156s. The addition of the extra 156s has not really made EMT sprinters availability much better, as the additional 156s are required in service in order to provide the extra capacity on Liverpool-Nottingham.

222001 · 22 Dec 2015

louis97 said:
A 7 car Meridian has been used every year for at least the last 3 or 4 years for the Grand National, so since EMT have got the extra Class 156s. The addition of the extra 156s has not really made EMT sprinters availability much better, as the additional 156s are required in service in order to provide the extra capacity on Liverpool-Nottingham.

Yeah 222006 did the honours this year. There was one year it didn't run due to engineering works splitting the route at Peterborough - 2013 I think.

dquebec · 22 Dec 2015

Has a Class 222 been to Norwich or Cambridge? Are they cleared to run that way?

222001 · 22 Dec 2015

dquebec said:
Has a Class 222 been to Norwich or Cambridge? Are they cleared to run that way?

EMT ran a test run to Norwich in 222013 in 2009 - it proved to be too slow in the sections of track with MU speeds south of Peterborough, so they've never ran in passenger service past there.
222s are cleared to Cambridge - this comes from when Hull Trains used to divert via there - I've even seen a photo of a 222 in one of the bay platforms there!

Haydn1971 · 22 Dec 2015

A five car 222 would currently offer about 40 seats less than a four car EMT 158 - no thanks, someone else can have them unless they are reconfigured for 90-100mph use, the dead space each end is removed and the first class cabin and buffet gets ripped out.

Bevan Price · 22 Dec 2015

LNW-GW Joint said:
Anybody regularly using the EMT Norwich-Liverpool service north of Nottingham will know it is currently one of the best services in the region.
This is since the 158s were doubled up to 4-car regularly and refurbished.
Being an inter-regional service it is a bit of an orphan in each area it operates in, much like XC services.
TPE plies the route west of Sheffield with newer trains, but single 185s (with a 1st class section) are very short of space compared to 4-car 158s.
The 158s are very competent regional express trains until we get something newer - don't knock 'em!
The DfT has evidently considered splitting the service at Nottingham and transferring Nottingham-Liverpool to Northern/TPE, but then backed off.
They also had the chance to change things east of Peterborough in the East Anglia competition but again decided not to.
The next possibility of change will be the new East Midlands bidding round in 2017 - we shall see what the DfT and the bidders dream up.
TPE's redundant 185s (after getting their new trains) with need to go somewhere on routes passing through south Manchester (to continue maintenance at Ardwick).

A 3 car Class 185 has about 120 fewer standard class seats than a 2x2 Class 158 formation. I don't foresee anyone wanting to run pairs of 185s between Liverpool & Nottingham, and using a single 3 car to replace 4x158 coaches would be complete stupidity. Even getting rid of all the first class seats from Class 185 would leave them with much lower capacity than a pair of 158s.

Passenger John · 22 Dec 2015

A Hull trains unit passing Shepreth on the Cambridge-Hitchin line this Spring, on diversion, so must have run via March, Ely and Cambridge.

Bletchleyite · 22 Dec 2015

That's GC isn't it?

Passenger John · 22 Dec 2015

Yes, but it shows they can run via Cambridge.

chubs · 22 Dec 2015

dquebec said:
I travel around 4 times a week east of Nottingham towards Ely/Cambridge, and 2 coaches towards Norwich can be excessive. I'm sure some peak trains are busy, but off peak, midweek, when I travel most, a single Class 153 would be cosy, but sufficient between Nottingham and Ely.

I honestly think you are catching some of the very least loaded services possible, if I travel off peak in the morning from Norwich the 2 car 158 is often 3/4 full leaving Norwich, picking up more on the way and not really thinning out until Peterborough. Lots of (used) seat reservations too.

It's quieter in the later afternoon departures but still at least 1/2 full.

dquebec · 22 Dec 2015

chubs said:
I honestly think you are catching some of the very least loaded services possible, if I travel off peak in the morning from Norwich the 2 car 158 is often 3/4 full leaving Norwich, picking up more on the way and not really thinning out until Peterborough. Lots of (used) seat reservations too.

It's quieter in the later afternoon departures but still at least 1/2 full.

I get the 09:37 Sheffield - Norwich or 11:37 service there, (sometimes 14:37 if I stay over in Cambridge).

Coming back to Sheffield is the 16:47/17:52 from Ely.

I have a season ticket, £224.60 each WEEK, which is fairly good value really, but if anyone knows a cheaper way, I'd be happy to know!

323235 · 22 Dec 2015

LowLevel said:
The trains are due an upgrade next year which will deliver at least some of what you mention (can't see first class though). They're generally pretty busy Norwich to Peterborough. Talk of altering the service seems to have gone quiet with Anglia bidders told to assume it remains as is at the Eastern end until at least 2025.

What is this upgrade?

I actually think 158s are the best DMU's to work the line at the moment since Class 170s have slower acceleration and the only benefit is 10mph on the faster sections of which there aren't many at present on the route.

185s are the only better alternative but only if in pairs

Class 170101 · 22 Dec 2015

Passenger John said:
A Hull trains unit passing Shepreth on the Cambridge-Hitchin line this Spring, on diversion, so must have run via March, Ely and Cambridge.

These are 180s.

Picture of Class 222 Pioneer at Cambridge
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=C...hVEVRoKHSFAD4wQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=XOdgMcFaIN_cUM:

dquebec · 22 Dec 2015

323235 said:
What is this upgrade?

I actually think 158s are the best DMU's to work the line at the moment since Class 170s have slower acceleration and the only benefit is 10mph on the faster sections of which there aren't many at present on the route.

185s are the only better alternative but only if in pairs

The 159s would be THE BEST to use on this line, but obviously they are required elsewhere, unless SWT is due new rolling stock?

turboslug · 22 Dec 2015

In the ITT for the new east midlands franchise it does not include Liverpool to Nottingham & derby to crewe routes, no idea what the dft want to do with these routes but operationally if it stays with east midlands then I think they need a depot in the north west as the dft want later arrivals into Liverpool from Nottingham than the existing 21.30, I still think there is plenty of remapping yet to happen regarding quite a few franchises

Domh245 · 22 Dec 2015

dquebec said:
The 159s would be THE BEST to use on this line, but obviously they are required elsewhere, unless SWT is due new rolling stock?

Why the 159s though? I am guessing that you are referring to their internal layout? Mechanically, they are very similar (if not identical?) to the 158s that currently operate the route, and it isn't beyond the realm of possibility to refurbish them to a similar specification, although it won't be cheap - but still cheaper than new stock, unless you start some sort of LHCS 442 system

*claims bonus points for 442 reference!*

LNW-GW Joint · 22 Dec 2015

turboslug said:
In the ITT for the new east midlands franchise it does not include Liverpool to Nottingham & derby to crewe routes, no idea what the dft want to do with these routes but operationally if it stays with east midlands then I think they need a depot in the north west as the dft want later arrivals into Liverpool from Nottingham than the existing 21.30, I still think there is plenty of remapping yet to happen regarding quite a few franchises

What East Midlands ITT? It is not due to be issued until December 2016.
EMT has a direct award until March 2018, and there are no route changes in the meantime. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...il-passengers-as-government-confirms-new-deal
There will probably be a prospectus and consultation before the ITT is issued.

gimmea50anyday · 22 Dec 2015

Passenger John said:
A Hull trains unit passing Shepreth on the Cambridge-Hitchin line this Spring, on diversion, so must have run via March, Ely and Cambridge.

These are grand central operated 180's. Different units.

dquebec · 22 Dec 2015

Domh245 said:
Why the 159s though? I am guessing that you are referring to their internal layout? Mechanically, they are very similar (if not identical?) to the 158s that currently operate the route, and it isn't beyond the realm of possibility to refurbish them to a similar specification, although it won't be cheap - but still cheaper than new stock, unless you start some sort of LHCS 442 system

*claims bonus points for 442 reference!*

Internal layout, first class provision, modern passenger information screens etc, 3 coaches, more luggage space.

There is a 158 knocking around that has come from South West Trains - which is a far more pleasant train than anything EMT has!

222001 · 22 Dec 2015

Haydn1971 said:
A five car 222 would currently offer about 40 seats less than a four car EMT 158 - no thanks, someone else can have them unless they are reconfigured for 90-100mph use, the dead space each end is removed and the first class cabin and buffet gets ripped out.

Indeed, they would not be suited to the route at all.

323235 · 22 Dec 2015

dquebec said:
The 159s would be THE BEST to use on this line, but obviously they are required elsewhere, unless SWT is due new rolling stock?

I forgot about the 159s and I 100% agree with you

edwin_m · 22 Dec 2015

The 156s may be more airy and are a reasonable substitute in winter, but in summer it's another matter. Due to the lack of aircon the windows will mostly be open, they are draughty and extremely noisy and when my hay fever was worse a few years ago I could only travel in one sitting right at the front of a coach where the draught hadn't had a chance to build up. Give me a 158 any time, as long as the aircon is working (not guaranteed but better than they used to be).

I think this service suffers from "other side of the fence" syndrome. Lots of people have suggested changes which might make certain aspects better, but it's important to realise what works with the current setup and would get worse if it was changed. Having said that I rarely use it east of Nottingham and virtually never east of Grantham so I can't comment on that section.

dquebec · 22 Dec 2015

edwin_m said:
The 156s may be more airy and are a reasonable substitute in winter, but in summer it's another matter. Due to the lack of aircon the windows will mostly be open, they are draughty and extremely noisy and when my hay fever was worse a few years ago I could only travel in one sitting right at the front of a coach where the draught hadn't had a chance to build up. Give me a 158 any time, as long as the aircon is working (not guaranteed but better than they used to be).

I think this service suffers from "other side of the fence" syndrome. Lots of people have suggested changes which might make certain aspects better, but it's important to realise what works with the current setup and would get worse if it was changed. Having said that I rarely use it east of Nottingham and virtually never east of Grantham so I can't comment on that section.

Definitely think east of Nottingham, that Cambridge is the best destination for it, or at the very least, hourly service to Ely, then 2-hourly to Norwich, 2-hourly to Cambridge.

e.g.

12:00 Norwich
13:00 Cambridge
14:00 Norwich
15:00 Cambridge
16:00 Norwich etc

No additional units required, but opens up a fantastic through route from Cambridge to/from the North West.

Liverpool to Norwich - Direct Services

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