When Virgin Trains are too busy to serve first class...

MKB · 22 Dec 2015

I've been meaning to post this for a while.

I'm used to Virgin Trains weekend crew announcing that they're not doing any first-class service because the train is too busy. This happens quite a lot on the trains I find myself on. Granted there are some occasions when a train is rammed, but they're not the ones I'm talking about. Most often it turns out that there are three people stood in a vestibule somewhere in the first-class section and this is the justification.

But for over-reactions, the Train Manager on the 18:47 Liverpool to Euston on Sunday 29 November takes some beating. First-class had no congestion and no-one standing, and the vestibules were empty, but, because there were a handful of standers in standard class, first-class service was suspended.

The two ladies who were supposed to be serving, and had all the tea and coffee ready to go in the coach K galley area, were most embarrassed, and wanted to serve, but said they couldn't go against the orders of the TM. I'd overheard the TM telling them this earlier when he walked through coach J, so I knew it was true.

I took the attached pics between Runcorn and Stafford where I got off. As you can see, the aisles are not blocked, apart from one person who stood up to get something down from the luggage rack just as I took the pic and another who was waiting for the toilet. The vestibules were deserted. The situation was no different before Runcorn.

If this were infrequent, I'd let it go, but it's not. In my experience, when a lot of the passengers are travelling to/from a football match, some TMs will find any excuse not to do the normal service.

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Jonfun · 22 Dec 2015

I find it surprising that the Train Manager, under normal circumstances, decides when the First Class Hosts are allowed to do the catering. But my first thought would be was it down to something like him not having a machine, so not being able to upgrade people to weekend first and hence complicate matters with regards to who's entitled to complimentary bits and who isn't?

I'm actually quite interested to know, if anybody wants to shed some light?

Howardh · 22 Dec 2015

If I travelled first class, I'd want the trimmings. If they didn't appear, then I would assume it had been declassified and I'd demand a refund.
And if I didn't get that refund I'd quite happily take legal action.

Clip · 22 Dec 2015

Howardh said:
If I travelled first class, I'd want the trimmings. If they didn't appear, then I would assume it had been declassified and I'd demand a refund.
And if I didn't get that refund I'd quite happily take legal action.

You go for that then sugar and come back and regale us with your happy tale of being laughed out your briefs office before you even get to court. Trimmings are not a given right.

This was a Sunday when service is very much reduced and I am guessing that the TM may well have said no 1st due to the rest of the train being busy and him not being able to ticket check in 1st class.

gimmea50anyday · 23 Dec 2015

Poor management of the train i would consider. The TM could have dealt with the train far more proactively looking at these images and your experience. Of course I dont know the full facts as I wasnt there. I would suggest contacting customer relations with your experience

cambsy · 23 Dec 2015

The weekend is a significantly reduced first class service, because there is not the business travel, it is coffee etc and snack box and an upgrade of about £20, so if there is no service of coffee etc and it is declassified then it is fair enough, be different if a normal working week day, not holiday time, as then I would want refund etc as paid a lot for service.

RAPC · 23 Dec 2015

Clip said:
You go for that then sugar and come back and regale us with your happy tale of being laughed out your briefs office before you even get to court. Trimmings are not a given right.

This was a Sunday when service is very much reduced and I am guessing that the TM may well have said no 1st due to the rest of the train being busy and him not being able to ticket check in 1st class.

Yep, not a chance.

Normally when they don't do the service part, they ask you to go to the shop to get your refreshments when you show your ticket. If the TM couldn't or wouldn't do the upgrades on the service, this is a way to ensure that only 1st class ticket holders get the included refreshments.

Bletchleyite · 23 Dec 2015

RAPC said:
Yep, not a chance.

Normally when they don't do the service part, they ask you to go to the shop to get your refreshments when you show your ticket. If the TM couldn't or wouldn't do the upgrades on the service, this is a way to ensure that only 1st class ticket holders get the included refreshments.

Beyond the wit of man, presumably, for the trolley people to ask to see the ticket and see if it has 1st on it or not?

Not exactly difficult, is it?

RAPC · 23 Dec 2015

Neil Williams said:
Beyond the wit of man, presumably, for the trolley people to ask to see the ticket and see if it has 1st on it or not?

Not exactly difficult, is it?

I have done weekend journeys before when they won't allow the service team to do an at seat service. According to a TM it is to stop the potential grief from passengers who wish to upgrade and can't, usually ending up in moaning passengers who insist on refreshments or don't wish to move back to standard as ticketed if asked.

Having witnessed plenty of weekend upgraders, there are always the odd one or two who behave like a petulant child when they don't get their way. I can understand why a TM would not want to put them in that position.

Bletchleyite · 23 Dec 2015

Fair point. But why could he not have declassified a specific coach or coaches, or walked through First and done upgrades?

RAPC · 23 Dec 2015

Neil Williams said:
Fair point. But why could he not have declassified a specific coach or coaches, or walked through First and done upgrades?

In the case of previous journeys where it has happened, it was a mix of no ticket machine or 1st class was blocked / overcrowded and standard was rammed to the gunnels.

I haven't witnessed them do it without a good reason. Not sure about the situation listed here though in the OP, unless it is the lack of a ticket machine and no available seats to move people to in standard.

Late Trains uk · 23 Dec 2015

Clip said:
You go for that then sugar and come back and regale us with your happy tale of being laughed out your briefs office before you even get to court. Trimmings are not a given right.

This was a Sunday when service is very much reduced and I am guessing that the TM may well have said no 1st due to the rest of the train being busy and him not being able to ticket check in 1st class.

Would standard class ticket holders be able to find a seat in the First Class carriages in that case?

Jonfun · 23 Dec 2015

Neil Williams said:
Beyond the wit of man, presumably, for the trolley people to ask to see the ticket and see if it has 1st on it or not?

Not exactly difficult, is it?

It does put them in an awkward position though if the person they ask holds a standard ticket and wants to upgrade, but they can't do an upgrade because the machine's buggered or whatever. You then risk ending up with a row asking them to move back to standard, and if you don't get them to move back to standard you get a row from the people who *have* paid their first class upgrade.

In these circumstances I'd agree it's sensible to say that complimentaries can be collected from the buffet car rather than trying to ascertain who's first and who isn't, on a busy train.

oldman · 23 Dec 2015

Have I got this right - people who are entitled to a cup of 'coffee' can't have one because some people who are not entitled might get one as well. What kind of mentality is that? How much does it cost to give away a few coffees to the unentitled versus the cost of the ill-will of the bona-fides?

And this from a company that prides itself on its marketing savvy.

Ianmel1969 · 23 Dec 2015

It's worth having a moan at Virgin if 1st class service is not provided. The other day when they could only provide one type of meal (meat) for everyone I complained and got £20 of vouchers sent to me as an apology.

Llanigraham · 23 Dec 2015

Howardh said:
If I travelled first class, I'd want the trimmings. If they didn't appear, then I would assume it had been declassified and I'd demand a refund.
And if I didn't get that refund I'd quite happily take legal action.

On what grounds?
The "trimmings" are complimentary and not your "right" when you are in First Class.
Your only "right" is to have a seat in First Class, and that you got.

driver_m · 23 Dec 2015

Hmm. Now the TM's on our services usually have to do a headcount, Lime St usually has a barrier on unless it's a quick turnaround and there's also a way of measuring the loadings via the TMS. They can't get away with just saying its unsafe without some justification. Yet again on here it's trial by Internet forum without the staff being unable to put their side of the story. Call someone on here and it'll get deleted with a possible sanction, yet you can effectively name and shame staff by putting the service time and date on. This is totally unfair when the staff can't defend themselves.

sidmouth · 23 Dec 2015

Llanigraham said:
Your only "right" is to have a seat in First Class, and that you got.

I thought the only "right" is to be able to stand in first class :lol:

ivanhoe · 23 Dec 2015

I must admit when I have upgraded, usually on late night services from Lime Street, my only expectation has been a seat. As driver m has stated, staff can't defend themselves on here and given the loadings on this service, your main priority is to get the train out on time and in provide a safe environment for everybody concerned. If there has been a game at either Anfield or Goodison, this service is rammed.

Camden · 23 Dec 2015

MKB, I would suggest complaining. I agree that on the face of it it doesn't appear to me to be a decent service. That the people serving were allegedly happy to do so suggests there may be value in making a complaint.

sheff1 · 23 Dec 2015

Jonfun said:
It does put them in an awkward position though if the person they ask holds a standard ticket and wants to upgrade, but they can't do an upgrade because the machine's buggered or whatever. You then risk ending up with a row asking them to move back to standard, and if you don't get them to move back to standard you get a row from the people who *have* paid their first class upgrade.

In such circumstances the TM could say "I will issue the upgrade when I have got my machine mended". It is most unlikely the people who have paid would notice the subsequent lack of an upgrade transaction and even if they did the answer is "The machine is still broken and I haven't been able to fix it". No need for any rows and no passengers upset about lack of freebies - which after all, at a weekend, amounts to a hot drink or bottle of water and a couple of biscuits which is hardly going to break the bank at Virgin if a few non-ugraders get them.

sdrennan · 23 Dec 2015

Definitely complain, Virgin are very good at responding and providing some recompense if the service fell below the norm

I had a journey few weeks ago which had no service Euston to Preston and limited on the remainder to Glasgow. It was 30 mins late. Made 2 complaints about service and delay and ended up with vouchers which were 133% of my single ticket price
Result.....

Mag_seven · 23 Dec 2015

Write to Branson asking if this type of customer non-service would be tolerated on a Virgin Atlantic flight. Can you imagine having a first/business class ticket and being told there would be no service because economy was too busy?

Bletchleyite · 23 Dec 2015

Mag_seven said:
Write to Branson asking if this type of customer non-service would be tolerated on a Virgin Atlantic flight. Can you imagine having a first/business class ticket and being told there would be no service because economy was too busy?

I was just thinking that this is precisely the kind of penny-pinching finiticking that airlines love.

aylesbury · 23 Dec 2015

Not receiving complimentery items is annoying but you wont receive recompense unlike on London Midland .Recently I was travelling to Birmingham on a busy service,at Rugby first was declassified and I emailed them about this and today I received a voucher for the portion of my journey declassified and an apology.So at least one TOC looks after its customers although I have never had any problems with Virgin on the many journeys made with them.

Jonfun · 24 Dec 2015

sheff1 said:
In such circumstances the TM could say "I will issue the upgrade when I have got my machine mended". It is most unlikely the people who have paid would notice the subsequent lack of an upgrade transaction and even if they did the answer is "The machine is still broken and I haven't been able to fix it". No need for any rows and no passengers upset about lack of freebies - which after all, at a weekend, amounts to a hot drink or bottle of water and a couple of biscuits which is hardly going to break the bank at Virgin if a few non-ugraders get them.

I disagree, I'm afraid. People pay a lot of money for First Class - although granted less so at the weekends - and it isn't fair on them that people can get the exact same perks for nothing.

All Line Rover · 24 Dec 2015

1ST Advance fares on the Liverpool to London route are regularly more expensive at the weekend than on weekdays when booked at short notice. £140 (single!) isn't unusual. I put this down to the underprovision of first class accommodation since I never came across these crazy fares (crazy because upgrades are available for £15) before Coach G was removed on the 9-car trains.

jon0844 · 24 Dec 2015

Given Virgin strives to maintain its reputation, I'd have expected policy to be that if you can't sell upgrades to people who wish to upgrade with Weekend First, you provide a first class service anyway.

It's not as if others on the train would find out and all decide to rush down (well perhaps some would Tweet they got a free upgrade and people would rush down, but that's unlikely!)

If that became policy it might just focus minds to make sure TMs can sell tickets (having working machines) all the time, so the problems would be incredibly rare.

Master29 · 24 Dec 2015

I have been of FGW/GWR on Sundays and a few times the machine buggered up (keeping with the usage). On those occasions, she allowed us to sit in 1st and we didn`t have to pay but couldn`t have the refreshments. Wasn`t too bothered as was only a 2 hour journey and standard was packed so technically a 1st journey for standard without refreshments.

Just as a sidelight I have noticed on Sundays that on the busier services from Penzance GWR are inclined to keep the 2 1/2 first class configuration of old knowing the train would be packed and so "encourage" more of us plebs to upgrade. Dirty little trick I think.

CC 72100 · 24 Dec 2015

All Line Rover said:
I put this down to the underprovision of first class accommodation since I never came across these crazy fares (crazy because upgrades are available for £15) before Coach G was removed on the 9-car trains.

Now I have heard it all!

When Virgin Trains are too busy to serve first class...

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