Who should lie down and accept what?
Before we get sidetracked the debate was about the lack of DOO at St Mary Cray.
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Southeastern Dispatch Procedure
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Who should lie down and accept what?
Before we get sidetracked the debate was about the lack of DOO at St Mary Cray.
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JackTheLad
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Yea I get that, but I was trying to understand why St Mary Cray is the only exception as all other Southeastern stations in Greater London/Zones are all DOO that aren't mainline interchanges. What makes St Mary Cray so special in having dispatch staff, when far busier stations in the area don't?
What do you consider to be a Mainline interchange ? What makes a Mainline interchange special enough to warrant having staff dispatch and not DOO ? I must admit that I don't see DOO dispatch being specific to metro. Bromley South, Orpington, and Dartford are all considered by me and many others to be "metro"
I'm sure there is some kind of history about St Mary Cray and their dispatch arrangements. There is a "London Area" as defined in the Sectional Appendix maybe it dates back to then.
I'll try and ask one of the staff next time I'm there about this anomaly as nobody on here seems able to shed any light on it
313103
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What seems to be the problem about one particular station that this thread has warranted a lengthy debate about, which has nothing to do with what the Original poster asked?
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The belief that it is an anomaly and maybe that it doesn't deserve staff and should go DOO.
We have various dispatch procedures for each location. The various methods have already been outlined. It is difficult to change them as there may be underlying reasons why they exist in their current form.
After page 1 most topics invariably swing of to a tangent. The question was answered within the first few replies.
As this is still very much dispatch procedure discussion its hanging on rather tenuously. I'd agree it is probably better to start another thread discussing dispatch in general and the removal of staff in favour of a cheaper, more cost effective approach or one that can be used universally across the entire network.
Interestingly this article says that trains on SouthEastern have been delayed due to dispatching issues caused by bright sunlight.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35293133
Why would bright sunlight cause dispatching issues?
Could it be that the sun is reflecting off the mirror that the drivers use to see whether the platform is clear?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35293133
Why would bright sunlight cause dispatching issues?
Could it be that the sun is reflecting off the mirror that the drivers use to see whether the platform is clear?
They are monitors not mirrors.
Essentially you are correct. As mentioned above try looking directly at your phone in bright sunlight. Alternatively try watching the tellybox when the sun is beaming through your window on to it.
The Lewisham monitors at certain points of the day have the sun directly behind them so when you look at the monitors all you see it the sun glare directly in your eyes making it almost impossible to physically see the monitors.
Another situation is where the sun will be directly into the cameras so that all the monitors show is a grey haze, which is effectively making them blank.
Due to a recent incident Drivers are no longer taking the risk and are strictly using the new policy. Failure to comply with the new policy will result in disciplinary action. It has become a very large stick to beat Drivers with.
There is no 'problem' about any particular station it was just questioned why the dispatch arrangements (which is what this thread is about) at St Mary Cray are different from other stations in the vicinity. Some people have had a lot to say about it but not an answer hence my suggestion of asking the staff next time I'm there.
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This can't be the first time this has happened, at Lewisham or anywhere else for that matter.
I can see that this is a valid reason for some delay, but South Eastern need to explain it to the customer better. After all it is just like the sun visor that car drivers put down when they are driving into direct sunlight.
Perhaps it just sloppy journalism on the part of the BBC (no surprise there then) in which they neglected to investigate further and just put it up on their website as a good "rail bashing" story.
I can see that this is a valid reason for some delay, but South Eastern need to explain it to the customer better. After all it is just like the sun visor that car drivers put down when they are driving into direct sunlight.
Perhaps it just sloppy journalism on the part of the BBC (no surprise there then) in which they neglected to investigate further and just put it up on their website as a good "rail bashing" story.
No you can't blame sloppy journalism this time, it was on the Southeastern twitter feed
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...southeastern-trains-london?CMP=fb_gu#comments
I assume you are referring to this article?
We regularly have these issues on various GN stations with monitors this time of year and it does lead to some delays.
The sun either shines directly into cameras meaning all you see on the screen is the sun and absolutely nothing else or it shines directly onto the monitor bank with no shade-try looking at an iPad etc in direct sun. Considering closing the doors is one of the most dangerous things a driver does any issues with image quality including the sunlight must lead to degraded dispatch. Easier said than done in some locations. On a straight platform (on the left of the train) with a 4 car it involves opening window, sticking head out, closing doors, checking again then going. But with a 12 car at lewisham with its severely curved platforms even standing half way down the train at an intermediate cab won't help. The driver will need to walk past each of the 12 cars to locally close each door then walk all the way back to the cab. Realistically when walking at a normal pace that will take over 5mins.
At a location like lewisham you would need several platform staff for a 12 car as a single member of staff wouldn't be able to see the entire train either.
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And it was 100% accurate, and a very real and very dangerous problem. Had a driver been unable to see in the sunlight and just guessed it was clear without walking the entire length to check resulting in someone's death this forum would be crawling with people calling for the driver to be hung drawn and quartered for failing to do their job properly. As would the comments section in the news websites where the brain dead amongst society can comment on stories.
Sadly with things like this we are damned if we do and damned if we don't...
I can see that the curved platform would make an awkward situation much worse.
I do think though that South Eastern could explain the issue better.
If they put up an explanation similar to that which you have just posted, ordinary commuters such as me would understand better.
I do think though that South Eastern could explain the issue better.
If they put up an explanation similar to that which you have just posted, ordinary commuters such as me would understand better.
It's difficult to explain all the nuances of dispatch in 140 character soundbites.
When its put across like the three of us have in this thread t can come across as patronising. If they posted diagrams and a full blown explanation they get accused fo being too technical.
The media team have a difficult job trying to balance information.
Chuck in that people are very quick to jump on to the "wrong kind of XXX" bandwagon. Those, like you, are prepared to listen and find out the correct information. Not everyone is like that.
When its put across like the three of us have in this thread t can come across as patronising. If they posted diagrams and a full blown explanation they get accused fo being too technical.
The media team have a difficult job trying to balance information.
Chuck in that people are very quick to jump on to the "wrong kind of XXX" bandwagon. Those, like you, are prepared to listen and find out the correct information. Not everyone is like that.
Whatever causes a delay, people just want to jump on the railways failings and start comparing them to these fictional other countries where delays never happen (ok so France is a real country but claiming these kind of delays 'never' happen there is utter nonsense!)
Nobody has suggested that drivers should do any guessing but with the assistance of station staff it's hardly an insurmountable problem!
Are there enough station staff to help though? And by that I mean staff trained and certified in dispatch rather than ticket office and cleaning staff. If the station is normally DOO dispatch then it's unlikely there will be enough dispatch staff to dispatch a 12 car. So it's down to the driver to ensure the safety or HIS or HER train, not to rely on others telling them it's safe. It's the driver who will be in the dock should something go wrong, not the overly helpful and keen station staff.
It might well just be a case of somebody holding up a piece of board to block the sunlight so the driver can see the screen clearly?
Not specifically as the current arrangements go back some time so there is most likely some historical point somewhere.
The dispatch arrangements are governed by each stations dispatch plan and there will be contingency plans. It contains numerous points to have to be considered. Infrastructure and platform layouts etc as well as stock type. Some units require two person dispatch (I forget the technical acronym)
Platform staff also "sign" each location and cannot just bowl up and start dispatching. They also have competencies etc. Even somewhere like Lewisham doesn't automatically have staff trained in dispatch. I'm sure they do as I have been flagged off from there numerous times.
From a DOO station bat and flag can be arranged and as a Driver you can be flagged away from any location. There is nothing to say you MUST to DOO from a DOO station. CD/RA stations like the London Terminals have well trained staff and I think most can bat and flag so the impact on the service is often minimal.
There is also an agreement preventing the extension of DOO so to change the method of dispatch will most likely come under that too.
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It's never been anywhere as simple as that in my experience of sunlight dispatch issues. For a start we are talking a bank of screens showing 12 coaches-that's going to be one almighty piece of board needed! And it's going to need to be held above the height of the train (otherwise the train itself would cause a shadow to block the sun).
As I say, I've never seen sunlight on monotors in a way that simply holding up a piece of board or similar would solve the issue.
Metobusfan
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At blackfriars and City we cd/ra. May bat (which has light (red green and white)) or bat and flag in extreme cases
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Yes ra can be given before cd
TheNewNo2
Member
It seems SouthEastern have shot themselves in the foot by explaining why there were delays this morning:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...of-sunlight-delays-southeastern-trains-london
Has this been a problem before? I know there were issues with the cab display on the ERTMS 158s a while back, though this is with platform OPO equipment by the sound of it.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...of-sunlight-delays-southeastern-trains-london
Has this been a problem before? I know there were issues with the cab display on the ERTMS 158s a while back, though this is with platform OPO equipment by the sound of it.
Signal must revert to red. The RA obviously clears with the signal reverting so it's the only way. Degraded dispatch or ask the signaller to reset the signal (usual 2min timeout) if RA is accidently activated.
I'm sure there are some locations which are different but RA generally can't be given on a red+ position light signal. So we have to get verbal permission to take empty cars into sidings at places like Cambridge, Peterborough, welwyn and Hertford as the RA can't be used.
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